try telling that to the luddites
F-35 - International Participation
- Thread starter OPSSG
- Start date
Let me quote a fabulously well adapted piece from F.16.nettry telling that to the luddites
"Five Stages of Procurement Reality Grief
1. Denial and Isolation
The reaction when first confronted with a new and better way to make war that one does not fully understand and thus turns one’s worldview upsidedown is to deny the reality of the situation. It is a normal reaction to rationalize when overwhelming emotions come forth. It is a defense mechanism that buffers the immediate shock. One ‘blocks’ out the word that cause such feelings--and so one then hides from the facts. This is a temporary response that carries a mature person only through the first wave of pain.
2. Anger
As the masking effects of denial and isolation begin to wear, the new reality and its pain emerge again if one is not ready. The intense emotion is deflected from one’s vulnerable core. Then it is redirected and expressed instead as ‘anger’. The anger may be aimed at inanimate objects such as the new weapon systmem, complete strangers on message boards, friends or even family or pets. Anger may even be directed at the past ‘management’ of the dying and obsolete weapon systems. Rationally, one may know the people working on the obsolete weapon systems are not to be blamed, and equally rationally one may even realize they do not understand or grasp the dynamics that make the new weapon system an imperative. Emotionally, however, one may resent the retirement of the old weapon system for causing pain or for leaving. One feels guilty for being angry, and this makes one even angrier.
The military planners who identified the deficiencies in legacy systems and found that no amount of modification of the existing systems would suffice to correct those deficiencies to make them worth pursuing instead of pursuing new systems and strategies might become a convenient target. Defense planners and acquisition officials deal with the weapon system life cycle every day and understand. Fortunately that also makes them immune to the manipulation and faux angst of fan boys or others who grieve for the obsolete weapon systems.
3. Bargaining
The normal reaction to feelings of helplessness and vulnerability is often a need to regain control–
• If only we had stopped the buying of this new system sooner…
• If only we had a different set of acquisition officials and contractors…
• If only we had done a better job of defending our pet weapon system…
Secretly, one may make a wish for Divine Providence in an attempt to postpone the inevitable. This is a weaker line of defense to protect one from the painful reality.
4. Depression
Two types of depression are associated with mourning over the departing reality and its weapon systems and strategies in decline. The first one is a reaction to practical implications relating to the loss. Sadness and regret dominate this type of depression. One worries about the personal ramifications. This phase may be eased by simple clarification and reassurance that change is the only ‘true constant’. One may need a bit of helpful cooperation and a few kind words. The second type of depression is more subtle and, in a sense, perhaps more private. It is one’s quiet preparation to separate and to bid our loved one farewell. Sometimes all one really needs is to troll a serious discussion board for a reality check.
5. Acceptance
Reaching this stage of mourning is a gift not afforded to everyone. Usually it is denied to low-information bystanders, the innumerate, and other casual observers who are vulnerable: easily manipulated by ne’er-do-wells via fallacious argumentation. Those people may never see beyond anger or denial. It is not necessarily a mark of bravery to resist the inevitable and to deny oneself the opportunity to make one’s peace. This phase is marked by withdrawal and calm. This is not a period of happiness and must be distinguished from depression.
Coping with change is ultimately a deeply personal and singular experience — no one can help another go through it more easily or understand all the emotions that one goes through. But others can be there for the afflicted and help comfort them through this process. The best thing one can do is to allow oneself to feel the grief as reality comes over them. Resisting it only will prolong the natural, painful process of accepting reality."
On the other hand you could go in with your eyes open, realise the benefits of the new way and be an early adopter, or at least on board with where things are heading, thereby avoiding the grief altogether. Possibly by joining a partnership and investing in the new way for over a decade or more.
Wait a minute......
Wait a minute......
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Defense-aerospace is reporting Italy's possible reduction in their F-35 purchase. The B- version is ok for the navy but Italy's air force may see their A version cut back. This article also mentions Italy's largest business newspaper came out in favour of cancelling Italy's F-35 commitment.
ROK officially selects the F-35A for their F-X requirement
Republic of Korea Selects Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II · Lockheed Martin
Republic of Korea Selects Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II · Lockheed Martin
Although this has been expected unofficially for a while now considering they previously already eliminated all of the competition for one reason or another . . .
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Norway has committed as well, yes? Japan and S Korea see the JSF as essential to counter the growing Chinese capability. The other interesting factor here is economics, Norway has a huge sovereign wealth fund from oil, Japan and S Korea have huge GDPs, and Israel will have their aircraft subsidized by US taxpayers. Other foreign buyers and JSF partners are all financially stressed and vulnerable to political opposition. These orders, depending on country, will be harder to obtain and likely will be smaller than hoped for. Recent Russian activity may counter this however.
Funny view of things. I have a slightly different view in that every single partner nation has committed to the aircraft, apart from your own and I am confident you guys will eventually too.
On top of that 3 additional countries beyond the partner nations have jumped on board already, Singapore has expressed strong interest and will undoubtedly sign up at some point and other countries (Finland and Spain in particular) are highly likely to eventually order F-35 aircraft as well.
This program in terms of attracting orders has proven far superior to any program since the F-16 yet many are still trying to portray it as a "failure".
If 10 countries already signing on is considered a failure, what does that say about every other fighter on the market, bar F-16?
Interesting some of the increasingly manic commentary about the F-35. Seems even some of the 'crazies' are struggling to keep up their (ridiculous) arguments.
t68
Well-Known Member
Yep agree with your sentiments their AD, yes while some countries may reduce the order because of fiscal pressures at the moment, it does not mean the aircraft doesn't meet their needs just means they will buy fewer aircraft now but they may make up the numbers when things are a bit easier.
Air Force Brat
Member
I agree that the Russian incursion into Crimea, has well illustrated the "need" for a viable fifth gen, as has the implementation of the East China Sea ADIZ. Hopefully all those who have a need/desire will be able to get in on the JSF as the price is coming down, thanks to some tough negotiations, as the sequester continues to deepen the hurt in our own military here in the US, JSF is so far on solid footing thankfully.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The Hill Times (hill times.com) has reported that the Canadian government will delay the fighter buy until after the next election thus no purchase will occur until 2016. Having the F-35 as an election issue won't help the conservatives. If the Marines can't get their IOC by late 2015 as per their forecast then LM chances in Canada will be that much harder. I assume the Liberals will use the F-35 as a wedge issue so if they win it will likely be good news for Boeing.
Why? Does anyone seriously think Canada is looking at the F-35B?
I would suggest the F-35A is what they are interested if at all so what happens with the USMC IOC date, will only be of any real relevance to the USMC and of course the anti-JSF bunch, who will use to foster their own agenda. I can't see that it matters one way or the other as far as Canada is concerned.
IOC in 2016 is planned for the A model and is I think much more realistic and suits Canada's timelines quite a bit better. CF-18 should fine until they need to start phasing them out in the period 2022-2025 and by then F-35A will have well and truly achieved FOC on the Block 3F standard and quite probably IOC on Block IV.
I think an order in 2016 would be about perfect. F-35A deliveries would then start in 2018-19 and you'd have 3 years to declare IOC on a squadron level capability to facilitate the retirement of the CF-18 and 3 more years to reach FOC on the F-35 force, prior to the complete retirement of CF-18.
canadian industry will lose all their contracts if a JSF purchase gets cancelled
you can bet your sweet bippy that canadian industry will move very aggressively against the govt if they start losing contracts
and thats just as likely as LM will be quite happy to redistribute contracts to Japan, Sth Korea, Israel and Singapore who are all quite happy to take any slots vacated by anyone in the 8.3 group
you can bet your sweet bippy that canadian industry will move very aggressively against the govt if they start losing contracts
and thats just as likely as LM will be quite happy to redistribute contracts to Japan, Sth Korea, Israel and Singapore who are all quite happy to take any slots vacated by anyone in the 8.3 group
And that cancellation would really bring back the Arrow with a vengeance, in terms of lost jobs, missed opportunities. I do *not* understand why Canada seems to be in such a froth about what looks to be a total no-brainer of a purchase.
a) buy the jet that your closest and most militarily successful neighbour is selling around the world and in which you have a decent workshare..
or
b) buy something else with wings uh..*because...*
a) buy the jet that your closest and most militarily successful neighbour is selling around the world and in which you have a decent workshare..
or
b) buy something else with wings uh..*because...*
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Self-serving politicians here will always do what is needed to get re-elected. The Canadian electorate has minimal interest in national defence. The opposition knows this and the F-35 is the perfect target for defeating the conservatives (unless they waffle on their choice prior to the election). Besides, Canada has screwed around with a naval helicopter replacement for over 20 years with no end in sight and this program's cost is minimal compared to a fighter replacement cost. Therefore, politicians likely assume they can fuddle around with this for even longer.StobieWan said:
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We're luck - in the UK, most of the biggies are cross party decisions - anything big, both sides have a broad based chat and get some basic agreement in mind before kicking it off. Trident was a good example of this - the incumbent government didn't want to put money down on something that'd be cancelled by the next bunch in power.
The carriers and the aircraft, they're both pretty safe for us - questions like how many and how often are still up there but broadly speaking, there's no major argument. I may be unimpressed with some parts of the way the country works but at least our politicians can have sensible conversations with one another and occasionally bring the good home.
The carriers and the aircraft, they're both pretty safe for us - questions like how many and how often are still up there but broadly speaking, there's no major argument. I may be unimpressed with some parts of the way the country works but at least our politicians can have sensible conversations with one another and occasionally bring the good home.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Yes, your Parliament works across party lines, ours does not for the most part, especially regarding important issues. However, the basic problem is the Canadian electorate's ignorance of defence in general and the "US will take care of things". These are the same people that $itch about Canadian sovereignty, they think it happens for free.
the canadian military could thank politicians for buggering up their force development models and future procurement even more ......
they would be in an integration wilderness
the road runner
Active Member
A good read about BAE and MARAND producing the first "Aussie made," F-35 Vertical tail for the JSF program.Up to 722 ship sets will be produced in Australia.
Marand delivers first F-35 vertical tail | Australian Aviation Magazine
You never hear the knockers talking about how Aussie industry is benefiting from being part of the JSF International team. Funny that !!
Marand delivers first F-35 vertical tail | Australian Aviation Magazine
You never hear the knockers talking about how Aussie industry is benefiting from being part of the JSF International team. Funny that !!
interesting sidebar to the Ukrainian crisis. The Poles are looking at dumping F-16 replacement and looking at JSF instead
Wondered how long it would be before the Poles looked at JSF. I wonder though if JSF is being looked at as an addition to their relatively new and capable Block 52+ fleet? They invested pretty heavily over the last decade in a 48 strong high-spec F-16 Block 52+ fleet. I'd be astonished if they were looking at replacing it already.
They are still running sizeable fleets of SU-22 and MiG-29 aircraft (about 16 and 30 respectively I believe) and are looking to replace SU-22 as a priority. I could well imagine a batch purchase of JSF's as funding allows with a training and operational squadron to 'bed down' the capability within the Polish Air Force and provide initial replacement for SU-22 with the MiG fleet replaced down the track.
A purchase of 36-48 F-35A's would make a great replacement for these fleets, would massively enhance Poland's air combat capability and would be a timely boost and validation of the JSF program, that few could argue with.