The problem with commercial shipping is availability. Not knowing her itinerary, she could be abroad when needed. Therefore, the rationale of having purpose built and crewed amphibious/sea lift ships at hand especially when responding to a natural disaster or sudden anarchy in neighboring nations. With ships at hand training and exercises can be done when one desires.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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t68
Well-Known Member
In a HADR role she would need a working dock suitable for loading /unloading at the stern and has from memory no ability to side load. Whilst I have no doubt she could do the job if she was STUFT at short notice. If the RAN needs a vessel that are capable of self-sustained Roll -on/Roll-off and Lift on/Lift off operations at a pier and a side benefit of Logistics over-the shore through stern and side port ramps we need something like USNS Bob Hope, whilst she is too large for the ADF in a permanent role we should re-instate a government owned national shipping company like the old ANL and have them working like the UK point class that can be called upon when needed.
And the fact taht the ship in qeusiton is a RO-RO vessel that needs a berth that will accommodate its stern ramp. As it is on a fixed run the ramp is not articulated and needs to rest on a pontoon or fixed ramp.
You may not get those in places you need to deploy and these ships are not designed for discharge at anchor.
the road runner
Active Member
Greg Combet was on the ABC news last night ,talking about how our future sub program could absorb some of the car manufactures industry workers.
His point was that,the government could fast track Sea 1000 creating a number of new manufacturing jobs.
It seems like this could become a political issue,jobs ..jobs..jobs.. oh and new subs !
His point was that,the government could fast track Sea 1000 creating a number of new manufacturing jobs.
It seems like this could become a political issue,jobs ..jobs..jobs.. oh and new subs !
t68
Well-Known Member
Do you really think that any government of both sides would implement a national strategic shipbuilding program and actually stick to it?
Can't see it, most Holdens production workers are uneducated, unqualified, over paid and often stoned, factory fodder. Most ASC production workers are trade qualified with many holding post trade qualifications as well, often diploma or advanced diploma level, also usually paid less than the Holdens drones and subject to pre-employment and random drug texting. There is no comparison.
To be perfectly honest I would actually prefer to see ASC updated to assemble and support Block IV or V Virginias Class SSNs perhaps with some local fabrication work and otherwise, along with BAE and Forgacs, concentrate on building increased numbers surface combatants. Additional AWDs, GP frigates and lots of OCV / corvettes.
t68
Well-Known Member
I am sure you could also say the same with BAE or any other industry were skilled and unskilled workers are employed. I know a fair few people who have no recognized qualifications who can do the same job if not better when they have commonsense. It appears to me that using the above to ridicule people because they work in a particular industry and using a broad-brush to tarnish all of the workers without actually see what they can or cannot do is plainly ridiculous. As for the assertion about drugs name me a industry were someone would not be using something that wasn’t strictly legal.
You can look for yourself exactly what conditions the workers are under here, also I do not for work for Holden or in the industry, when industry make these arrangements they go into them with their eyes open.
http://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/agreements/fwa/AE894332-2.pdf
t68
Well-Known Member
I would support something along those lines; we already assemble a lot of knock down kits here for defence from aircraft to ships. I see no difference with ASC doing that with Virginias Class.
Strictly speaking if we could have bought the AWD straight from the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer production line and armed them same as we are currently going to do with Hobart’s it would automatically gave us future weight growth margins we may also have gotten more ships for less maybe? We then could build more Anzac replacement ships on a continuous line and getting better economies to scale building for the rate of effort.
That's the thing I have worked in both and have friends who still work in automotive and shipbuilding. There are some very capable people working in automotive but I can assure you the selection processes Holdens etc use to hire their work force ensures they are not working on the production line. The only one of my friends who worked on the line who had a trade was a chef and he got out of there as quickly as he could.
The trades and professionals working there are a completely different matter and there is a very large cross migration between automotive and defence, but just not for automotive production workers, unless they obtained it elsewhere they simply do not have the skills, qualification or experience to work in defence. On the drugs thing, if you haven't worked there and haven't seen it you would find it hard to believe, but it is true.
I have witnessed first hand the union official telling a gathering of workers that the companies EBA offer was good and beyond fair and that they should accept it, the workers voted to reject it. The union official tore strips off them for being selfish, pointing out that for the company to pay more they would be forced to screw suppliers (whose workers were also union members on much lower wages) and would possibly force some suppliers out of business, the gathering didn't care, threatened industrial action and got extra money they didn't deserve.
These production, so called, workers are not highly skilled, they could for the most part be replaced by automation but weren't because government aid was tied to keeping dumb f##ks in work. Australia could have built a world class industry on the talent and ability of their designers, technicians and engineers, but slowly killed it instead by using it as a way to keep lazy, often stoned, bogans in over paid work. The industry didn't need to die, it did need to change but not to die.
Governments tend to associate size and upfront purchase costs with through life costs. As a rule of thumb a larger platform generally has greater margins to play with and is more flexible in terms of upgrade options / pathways, which can actually reduce through life costs.
By all means go for the smaller tighter option but only if you are prepared to replace it at 20 years rather than 30+.
I believe holden is losing all their technical and engineering staff not just production line staff (unlike ford which is keeping its engineering dept). A lot of skilled people in automation, production, logistics etc.
I do wonder if the LHD model would be used in the future, hulls built overseas, fitout and bridge done locally (anzac replacements, sub replacements). We could then push this model out to NZ or Canada or UK.
Japan/us builds sub hulls (or sections), ship them to SA to fit out and complete. Uk builds frigate hulls (or sections), ship to vic to complete. You could even work in a work visa program so Australians make up a percentage of the workforce in the overseas builds and wages taxed locally. Im not talking welders, more engineers, project managers etc.
I do wonder if the LHD model would be used in the future, hulls built overseas, fitout and bridge done locally (anzac replacements, sub replacements). We could then push this model out to NZ or Canada or UK.
Japan/us builds sub hulls (or sections), ship them to SA to fit out and complete. Uk builds frigate hulls (or sections), ship to vic to complete. You could even work in a work visa program so Australians make up a percentage of the workforce in the overseas builds and wages taxed locally. Im not talking welders, more engineers, project managers etc.
the road runner
Active Member
Combet stated that one of the project managers at ASC and AWD project were both ex car workers.I am the first person who is sceptical or seeing a pollie come out and shout about jobs ,jobs ,jobs.
To be fair tho ,i would have thought some of the (productive)workers/managers ect could have been trained up and filter out to other parts of the Australian Industry.
Cheers
Project Managers are not production workers, the only ex-car assembly production worker I came across at AWD was an ex supervisor who had moved into OH&S before moving into CM at BAE then ASC before becoming a Technical Officer in Engineering and he was very much the exception rather than the rule.
There are a great many former automotive industry trades, technical, engineering, supply chain etc people in defence and for that matter mining, construction and infrastructure. These people are not, with few exceptions, production workers. I know this because I was one who made the transition and many of my colleagues were people I had worked with, or come across in automotive previously.
One of the arguments to keep the automotive industry going is the high standard of technical, para-professional and professional people the industry produced, some reached the highest levels in automotive overseas, other moved to other industries and excelled. Some stayed in automotive in Australia and did world class work that was often over looked or ignored because the industry, due to economic issues, trade regulations, and the failure to invest in state of the art production facilities.
As for the average DF production worker, chuffing his / her joint, swilling their beer, living in the Mac Mansion in Golden Grove, well they should have been replaced by reliable automated processes long ago when the industry was profitable and the innovation could be afforded. Didn't happen so now, possibly, the biggest provider of trained competent non-production workers in the nation is gone.
I picked this up on another forum. I'm not sure if the changes in the region are accelerating faster than anticipated or if it's another media beat up. Hopefully the later.
RAAF monitored Chinese military exercise in waters between Christmas Island and Indonesia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-...military-exercises-north-of-australia/5259244
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/21430694/raaf-keeps-tabs-on-chinese/
RAAF monitored Chinese military exercise in waters between Christmas Island and Indonesia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-...military-exercises-north-of-australia/5259244
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/21430694/raaf-keeps-tabs-on-chinese/
Bluey 006
Active Member
It is believed Australia was tipped off to the presence of the Chinese vessels by US officials, who had been monitoring their journey south.
RAAF keeps tabs on Chinese - The West Australian
Is that statement accurate? Shouldn't our own OTHR or other surveillance assets been able to pick that up.
t68
Well-Known Member
Jindalee Operational Radar Network (Jorn) most certainly would have picked them up I imagine that they will cross reference civilian shipping which could be operating in the area anything they cannot confirm through open source material would warrant a look over with MPA assets, nothing wrong with foreign assets giving the ADF a heads up if they knew which direction they may or may not head and keep an eye out.
Nothing new here at the height of the Cold War the RAN were tracking Soviet submarines from Vladivostok to the Coral Sea and the Great Australian Bight it’s still the same game being played for over 60 years. It’s not so much that they were there but who else was there if any.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...%2FJindalee_Operational_Radar_Network;300;334
http://www.theage.com.au/news/natio...-missile-shield/2006/01/06/1136387625745.html
What's to say our systems didn't ? They are just one part of a much wider system. Don't hold too much trust in what the media add into a story, it is just that, a story.
We know where they are pretty much most of the time
Bluey 006
Active Member
What's to say our systems didn't ? They are just one part of a much wider system. Don't hold too much trust in what the media add into a story, it is just that, a story.
We know where they are pretty much most of the time
yer that was my point.....
Was it ? I must have missed something in your original post
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