Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

[STURM]

yes, why not a land based/coastal antiship missile system like what the crats have with with RBS-15 missiles.

Such weapons have zero peacetime utility unlike MPAs, patrol corvettes, radars, UAVs and even ASW configured helos. The cash would be better spent on other stuff, to enable the PN to better monitor its waters and prevent incursions.

 

[Griffin]

yes, why not a land based/coastal antiship missile system like what the crats have with with RBS-15 missiles. with a range of 250 km that should be more than enough to cover the panatag shoal. it has to be truck based though like the croats are doing to present less of an easy target. Not only is it cheaper than a ship based system it also is unmistakably defensive in posture. why not? they can set it up sooner rather than shopping around first for a naval platform. set up the missile first and then if need be and IF funds allow also have it ship based too.

Hi Sirs, consideration for AShM was actually dicussed by GRP and was also announced publicly for study of the AFP. I am not sure whether it had transpired or pushed further though, since there are more pressing and appropriate needs. I think, presence and deterrence in areas GRP exercises sovereignty holds more ground for prioritization, hence, ships and/or aircraft should be on top of the list (well, aside from COIN). PN needs more hulls in the water (more and especially modern ones) and PAF badly needs the assets. Besides, such AShMs come in equipment packages and systems which could also be pricey for GRP.

Cheers

 

[fretburner]

Such weapons have zero peacetime utility unlike MPAs, patrol corvettes, radars, UAVs and even ASW configured helos. The cash would be better spent on other stuff, to enable the PN to better monitor its waters and prevent incursions.

Absolutely agree. This is the same reason why a LIFT/MRF makes more sense than a SAM battery.

 

[Andri F]

Another thing is that the PN and the PAF, having been neglected for some time, are certain to have service-centered wishlist. Warships and fighters are more prestigious than coastal batteries. One more thing, patrol duties in the SCS could be handled by the coast guard if they have sufficient assets, and it is certainly less destabilizing than having missile-armed warships on patrol duties.

 

[STURM]

On a few occasions in this thread, I expressed my hope that funds would be allocated for a class of OPVs to be built rather that the PN getting additional used hulls that in the long run would be costly to run and would be maintenance intensive.

I had something like this in mind. Something that would require a smaller crew and would be cheaper to run than larger and older hulls.

Brazilian Navy receives first OPV from BAE - Naval Technology

https://www.blohmvoss-naval.com/en/offshore-patrol-vessels.html

The most vital element would be for the vessels to have a decent sensors fit, a heli-deck and be armed with with a main and secondary gun. Vessels with sexy stuff like missiles, torps and CIWs can come later when there are additional funds to spare and after the PN is adequately equpped to perform routine peacetime duties.

The 2 pics from the left are a model of a training ship being built for the Royal Malaysian Navy [RMN] - it was designed in South Korea. This particular design might be too small for the PN requirements but would be a major leap compared to some of the hulls that are presently operated and South Korean shipyards have slightly larger designs intended for patrol work. The pic on the right is an Indian OPV.



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[klaXonn]

It seems that the PN has made some progress. The first batch of AW109s are supposed to arrive this December and the Alcatraz seems to be armed with anti-ship missiles. Then there's the matter of the carrier Principe de Austurias courtesy of the Spanish Navy that our government seems to be interested in. In my opinion though, the purchase and maintenance cost and the fact that we still lack aircrafts even for the PAF and the combat pilots and maintenance crews to man them should dampen any enthusiasm.

Second Warship Armed with Anti-Ship Missile System : DND Official
[Her weapons system is heavier and sophisticated than those of the BRP Gregorio del Pilar,” he said. However, the DND officer declined to specify these weapon systems and stressed that such items cannot be divulged due to matters of national security.

He made this announcement when asked if there is truth to reports that a Harpoon anti-ship missile system was installed as part of BRP Ramon Alcaraz’s armament fit.

New Navy Choppers to be Delivered December

[The government is acquiring a total five AW 109 Power helicopters from the Anglo-Italian firm for P1.3 billion.

“We are looking at the acquisition of naval helicopters. The initial batch will be arriving by December this year,” Alano said on the sidelines of the Navy’s anniversary celebration here.]

Philippines Interested in the 'Principe de Asturias'

[A delegation from the Indonesian Navy moved to late March to Ferrol to visit the ship and learn about their capabilities. However, the government has ruled out the purchase. The auction is now in the hands of Philippines. If definitely take the step to purchase, enter into the select club of countries with these characteristics boats among its fleet. Only nine governments have aircraft carriers.]

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian firm bags P4-b Navy supply deal - Manila Standard Today

According to manilastandard, PT. Pal won the Philippines Navy multi role bidding (P4). The article stated that Pal become the only bidder left on the latest stages of bidding.

Interaksyon before provide article that stated from initial 9 bidders, 7 withdrew, and only left Pal, and Korean Daesun left.

Bid documents opened for P4-B acquisition of 2 Navy vessels - InterAksyon.com

Kind little bit ironic for me Pal beat Daesun with a modified design that originated from Daesun itself. Remind me of Indonesian submarine bidding in 2011 where Daewoo beat HDW with a modified 209 design.

Attach is a picture of modified Makasar design (got it from local forumers), that Pal submitted on P4 bidding.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesian firm bags P4-b Navy supply deal - Manila Standard Today

According to manilastandard, PT. Pal won the Philippines Navy multi role bidding (P4). The article stated that Pal become the only bidder left on the latest stages of bidding.

Interaksyon before provide article that stated from initial 9 bidders, 7 withdrew, and only left Pal, and Korean Daesun left.

Bid documents opened for P4-B acquisition of 2 Navy vessels - InterAksyon.com

Kind little bit ironic for me Pal beat Daesun with a modified design that originated from Daesun itself. Remind me of Indonesian submarine bidding in 2011 where Daewoo beat HDW with a modified 209 design.

Attach is a picture of modified Makasar design (got it from local forumers), that Pal submitted on P4 bidding.

Great news!
This modified Makassar design has four helicopter landingspots, instead of three. ---> Will it also be larger than the 125 meters of the Banjarmasin Class?
I hope the contract will be signed soon...

 

[tonnyc]

The official specs is still unknown, Sandhi Yudha, but it's unlikely that it will be larger than the Banjarmasin.

Supplemental bulletins (this file compiles the previous ones, so no need to track down the first three) released to the public by the Philippine Mindef revealed that the Philippine Navy requires at least enough space to enable the operation of two 10-tonne helicopters and hangar space for the same. This is a bit less than the Banjarmasin's capability. Given the low budget and the reduced requirement, it doesn't make sense for PAL to enlarge the ship. PT PAL has a smaller design since late 2011 and it's likely that this is the design offered to the Philippine. A less likely possibility is to simply copy the Banjarmasin design.

Some Philippine defense enthusiasts observed that the Philippine Navy demanded the capability to accommodate more passengers (read: soldiers) compared to the Makassars (approx. 120 people more) and has speculated that the reduced open space requirement will be used to extend the superstructure which in turn will accommodate more people. Given that pretty much all of the Philippine Navy's requirement can be accommodated without having to enlarge the ship, it probably won't.

Of course, for confirmation we'll have to wait for the official press release, which probably won't happen until the end of September. Philippine law regarding post-qualification says it must be completed and the results announced within 30 days.

 

[niftyDolphine]

PN is planning more US ships! yeah!

Phl eyes more US warships | Headlines, News, The Philippine Star | philstar.com

the government should continue to plan the future of the navy by making a long term plan to add more ships and improve operational capability.

I hope they also plan to acquire long range maritime patrol aircraft that could also carry antiship missiles. Patrol aircrafts could respond quicker than ships and pose a serious threat to enemy ships...

 

[Blackshoe]

Phl eyes more US warships | Headlines, News, The Philippine Star | philstar.com

the government should continue to plan the future of the navy by making a long term plan to add more ships and improve operational capability.

I hope they also plan to acquire long range maritime patrol aircraft that could also carry antiship missiles. Patrol aircrafts could respond quicker than ships and pose a serious threat to enemy ships...

I'd be curious what they are trying to acquire. I don't know if any Secretary-class high-endurance cutters are available for decommissioning and sale, though I do know the US has OHPs available to sell (or will shortly), since they are being retained for FMS.

I'm not sure I'd feel good about selling OHPs to the PN, since I'd doubt their ability to keep them up and running their current shape. Of course, the PN has been keeping a WWII Destroyer Escort in service for awhile, also, so maybe I shouldn't doubt them.

If the decision is to buy more HECs, at some point, they're going to have to look to start putting more weaponry (eg ASCMs) on them to really serve as credible ASuW forces.

 

[bdique]

I'd be curious what they are trying to acquire. I don't know if any Secretary-class high-endurance cutters are available for decommissioning and sale, though I do know the US has OHPs available to sell (or will shortly), since they are being retained for FMS.

I'm not sure I'd feel good about selling OHPs to the PN, since I'd doubt their ability to keep them up and running their current shape. Of course, the PN has been keeping a WWII Destroyer Escort in service for awhile, also, so maybe I shouldn't doubt them.

If the decision is to buy more HECs, at some point, they're going to have to look to start putting more weaponry (eg ASCMs) on them to really serve as credible ASuW forces.

The HECs basically give the PN the capability to go out to the contested islands and linger there long enough to make their presence felt. These are cutters, and although they are sometimes referred to as frigates what they are really up against are the commercial vessels from other nations as well as their respective coast guard vessels. I infer that from the fact that the main armaments are 1x 76mm cannon and 2x 25mm autocannons, weaponry that is quite suitable for taking out smaller surface craft or soft land targets from a range of distances.

I don't think their hulls will have any space to add any missile weaponry without making major changes (cut and add an extension for room to store weaponry/upsize the CIC). Maybe can add a Simbad Mistral SAM mount, but it looks like there's no space for the backblast to go. In any case I don't expect the HECs to function any other way except as HECs, which is quite an upgrade in capabilities for the PN already.

Regarding the ability to keep and maintain them...we'll see. Do FMS deals also include spare parts and supplies?

 

[Volkodav]

The HECs basically give the PN the capability to go out to the contested islands and linger there long enough to make their presence felt. These are cutters, and although they are sometimes referred to as frigates what they are really up against are the commercial vessels from other nations as well as their respective coast guard vessels. I infer that from the fact that the main armaments are 1x 76mm cannon and 2x 25mm autocannons, weaponry that is quite suitable for taking out smaller surface craft or soft land targets from a range of distances.

I don't think their hulls will have any space to add any missile weaponry without making major changes (cut and add an extension for room to store weaponry/upsize the CIC). Maybe can add a Simbad Mistral SAM mount, but it looks like there's no space for the backblast to go. In any case I don't expect the HECs to function any other way except as HECs, which is quite an upgrade in capabilities for the PN already.

Regarding the ability to keep and maintain them...we'll see. Do FMS deals also include spare parts and supplies?

I was actually thinking about the RAN OHP FFGs (assuming US State Department clearances) once the AWDs start to enter service. Although I don't know how the PN would feel about SM-2 and ESSM.

 

[Juramentado]

I don't think their hulls will have any space to add any missile weaponry without making major changes (cut and add an extension for room to store weaponry/upsize the CIC). Maybe can add a Simbad Mistral SAM mount, but it looks like there's no space for the backblast to go. In any case I don't expect the HECs to function any other way except as HECs, which is quite an upgrade in capabilities for the PN already.

Regarding the ability to keep and maintain them...we'll see. Do FMS deals also include spare parts and supplies?

The PN has learned from previous EDA acquisitions - all recent purchases include full Integrated Logistics Packages and spares/parts schedules. In addition, more training was ensured for the maintenance and manning crews, especially since the WHECS represent the first Gas Turbine plants in the fleet.

As for missile armaments, I should point out that the USCG had up-armed at least one Hamilton during the Cold War to serve as a US Navy fleet auxiliary combatant; this included an 8-tube Mk 141 installation on the elevated foredeck, just aft of the Oto-Melara. Mellon also received a complete ASW suite.

USCGC Mellon (WHEC-717) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's not inconceivable to replace put other medium range SSMs in the same deck location as the Mk 141s.

 

[Juramentado]

I was actually thinking about the RAN OHP FFGs (assuming US State Department clearances) once the AWDs start to enter service. Although I don't know how the PN would feel about SM-2 and ESSM.

The OHPs cost too much money per unit regardless of who's selling them. What monies will be spent are on brand-new frigates under the Frigate Acquisition Program. The announcement of qualifying bidders is now pending with the BAC.

On the other hand, the recent announcement by SECDEF Kerry of a USD 40M aid package will likely buy another two WHECs, assuming there are any left to roll-off. If no WHECs, it would be better to spend that money on up-arming Gregorio Del Pilar and Ramon Alcaraz. There's also talk of getting some more Cyclones, but those are *tired* boats.

 

[blackknight]

Recent News

According to a Philippine Navy study, around Pesos497 billion is needed to fully upgrade its fleet.

The PNA report said that with this budget, the Navy will also be able to acquire four sealift vessels, 18 landing craft utility vessels, three logistics ships, 12 coastal interdiction patrol boats, 30 patrol gunboats and 42 multi-purpose assault crafts that can be equipped with torpedoes and missiles.

Also included in the envisioned force mix are eight amphibious maritime patrol aircraft, 18 naval helicopters, and eight multi-purpose helicopters.

 

[blackknight]

Video

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvZRQzlI-AY"]Philippine Navy New Corvette coming soon on OCTOBER 2014 - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Todjaeger]

According to a Philippine Navy study, around Pesos497 billion is needed to fully upgrade its fleet.

The PNA report said that with this budget, the Navy will also be able to acquire four sealift vessels, 18 landing craft utility vessels, three logistics ships, 12 coastal interdiction patrol boats, 30 patrol gunboats and 42 multi-purpose assault crafts that can be equipped with torpedoes and missiles.

Also included in the envisioned force mix are eight amphibious maritime patrol aircraft, 18 naval helicopters, and eight multi-purpose helicopters.

I just do not see this actually happening. At current exchange rates, that works out spending ~USD$11 bil. on the Philippine Navy. That is a little under four times the entire AFP budget for 2012. Also there is the often overlooked issue of support costs.

What might be possible is for the Philippines Navy, over time to gradually replace some assets (like the Cannon-class DE from 1943) and add in some new capabilities. Such a large, expensive rebuilding programme I cannot honestly see the Philippines actually carrying out at present. It would take too long (decade plus) and cost too much money for various gov'ts to likely stick with the plan and also maintain the required funding levels, and then the required support costs once new/additional assets are brought into service.

In order for the Philippines to maintain current equipment and sustain operations, plus carry out such a naval upgrade and expansion programme, the Philippines would need to increase the annual defence budget by ~33%, and keep it at that new level for a decade. This also ignores any needed major upgrade, refurbishment and replacement programme costs for the Army or Air Force, all of which also are used aged kit.

Something else to keep in mind, part of the reason why the AFP has gotten into the state it currently is in, is because pols in the Philippines (it happens in other countries too) tend to announce big plans, issue requirements, or express interest in various major and costly systems, but then never actually place orders, sign contracts, or cut cheques.

-Cheers

 

[madokafc]

According to a Philippine Navy study, around Pesos497 billion is needed to fully upgrade its fleet.

The PNA report said that with this budget, the Navy will also be able to acquire four sealift vessels, 18 landing craft utility vessels, three logistics ships, 12 coastal interdiction patrol boats, 30 patrol gunboats and 42 multi-purpose assault crafts that can be equipped with torpedoes and missiles.

Also included in the envisioned force mix are eight amphibious maritime patrol aircraft, 18 naval helicopters, and eight multi-purpose helicopters.

497 Phil. Peso is around 11,1 billion US dollar, with their current state i don't think that's dough will be enough for the Phil to getting all of her wishlist in what your Navy call for Desire Mix Programme....i had see all of your Navy desired to achieve in 2020 in what you called Desire Mix


And i am quite curious with some terms in your list above, what your mean with Coastal interdiction Patrol boats? and why you still needed Patrol gunboats in an era of missile regime ? And what else with Multi Purpose Assault Crafts in which you mention they can be equipped with missile or torpedo, i just don't get it, are you not confusing it with some missile boats or torpedo boats?

 

[Filipinas]

Indonesian Firm Wins $87 Million Contract for Supply of 2 New PN Strategic Sealift Vessels

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/01/09/14/indonesian-firm-wins-bidding-supply-2-navy-vessels

http://www.janes.com/article/32188/philippine-navy-selects-pt-pal-for-ssv-procurement

By Alexis Romero, The Philippine Star
Posted at 01/10/2014 3:22 AM

MANILA, Philippines - An Indonesian company has won the bidding for the supply of two new vessels for the Navy.Sources told The STAR a notice of award for the P4-billion acquisition of two strategic sealift vessels was issued to PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) late last month.This was confirmed yesterday by Defense Undersecretary Fernando Manalo, who oversees the militarys upgrade efforts.

Yes, there is a NOA (notice of award) already, Manalo said when asked whether PT PAL had won the bidding for the project. PT PAL offered to supply the two ships for $86,980,000 or about P3.864 billion, well within the approved budget of P4 billion.The strategic sealift vessels can be used for civil-military operations and for transporting large number of soldiers, logistics and supplies. Each of the vessels can also accommodate three helicopters.