Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

[STURM]

I agree because even mobile ones need infrastructure and sensors which do cost money.

Which is why I was very surprised following reports not too long ago that there was interest in SSKs. Buying SSKs is the easy part; the not so easy part is establishing the needed infrastructure to support those SSKs. Using Malaysia as an example; it spent a billion Euros on a couple of Scorpenes years ago but has also spent hundreds of millions refitting both boats and establishing the needed shore support infrastructure [a simulator; maintenance facilities, equipment to support the batteries and other stuff; storage areas, slipways, etc].

There has to be a political will in the Philippines to invest in defence.

Very true and in recent years we've seen increased amounts of cash being allocated for defence. Whether it's because there is a greater realisation that there is a vital need to do so or because there is no choice given the age of some of the AFP's assets and how overstretched it is, is the question. The way I see it, there must be a fine balance between how much the country's leadership is willing to spend on equipping the AFP for external defence and how much it will continue spending on internal security. Can it devote equal focus and priority to both?

The good news is that there is a truce with groups with the NPA, MILF and MILF but there are other groups like the BIFF and ASG; the army and Marines regularly engages in ops with both and just last week 6 men were killed off Zamboanga in a pirate attack.

 

[tonnyc]

No, it's because there is little reason for anyone to want to get involved in a conflict with the Philippines and vice versa; not because of the lack of assets or capabilities on the part of the AFP.

For decades the Philippines was able to focus on internal security because it benefited from the presence of the U.S. military on Filipino soil. Today the Philippines no longer hosts U.S. assets on a permanent basis but it still benefits from the Mutual Defence Treaty. No doubt the Philippines has to start investing more in defence capabilities to better enable the AFP to deal with possible external threats but the fact remains that the main security threat to the country at present is still from non state actors and that the AFP still faces huge challenges meeting its vast peacetime commitments on account of being underfunded.

That attitude is precisely why the Philippines find itself with their current defense posture.

"It's really unlikely we'll get into conflict with anyone serious" leads to "so we don't need defense" leads to "so why spend on defense" leads to "wait, what happened to our defense?"

Your opinion though are shared by many Filipino and is certainly the official government policy. If they are satisfied with it, then good for them. But for those who aren't satisfied, well, my advice is to increase defense spending, which can be done without affecting the well-being of the average Filipino, and to shift the internal security duty to the police and coast guard.

 

[STURM]

That attitude is precisely why the Philippines find itself with their current defense posture.

The current state of the AFP is due to various longstanding factors, not due to any ''attitude''. In fact, if you ask many Filipinos, most will agree that the AFP is underfunded and ill equipped and that there is a vital need for modernisation.

"It's really unlikely we'll get into conflict with anyone serious" leads to "so we don't need defense" leads to "so why spend on defense" leads to "wait, what happened to our defense?"

No ...... That was not what I was getting at.

It's a question of which priority should be addressed first and having the right defence policy in line with the country's threat perceptions and regional geo-politics. Not a question of being complacent towards defence matters. Should procurement be threat or capability driven? What are the current threats facing the Philippines and will the nature of these threats change in the near future? It's not just a question of having the needed funds to buy gear.

 

[r3mu511]

... if you ask many Filipinos, most will agree that the AFP is underfunded and ill equipped and that there is a vital need for modernisation.

I really wish that were true, but you really only sometimes get that out of those in middle-class and upper circles or out of the big universities...

meanwhile down at the neighborhood gym "bakals" (low end gyms), nighttime "inuman tambayans" (streetside drinking sessions), "palengke" (streetside markets), most really have the "wala naman tayo gegerahin, bigay mo nalang yung pera sa tao" (we're not going to make war with anybody, just give the money to the people)...

I cannot count how many hours I've spent in "inuman" (streetside drinking) sessions explaining to my "tropa" (buddies) why securing the south china sea/west philippine sea EEZ is important if only for the income from it's resources (eg. Malampaya gas fields)... and the reaction I always get is "warfreak ka lang" (you're just a war-freak)...

in time the attitude of the masses will change, but right now, well...

 

[kiwipatriot69]

Well speaking as a kiwi, id have to say the same apathy towards defence exists among public and politicians alike here in New Zealand, even with the white paper defence budget of 20 billion, its still seems to be a replacement of current capability ,at best.


Our defence budget is around 1% of our GDP, and we face the same issues,little to no airstrike capability, two frigates, and most of our airlift and MPA need replacing within five or so yrs. though fortunatly we are lot further away from conflict. I concur with Ngatimozart, we could assist in experiance with upgrades or even on sell some of our newer gear.

 

[tonnyc]

Let's set aside the attitude stuff. It will get nowhere anyway.

It's a question of which priority should be addressed first and having the right defence policy in line with the country's threat perceptions and regional geo-politics. Not a question of being complacent towards defence matters. Should procurement be threat or capability driven? What are the current threats facing the Philippines and will the nature of these threats change in the near future? It's not just a question of having the needed funds to buy gear.

Even if one accepts, for the sake of discussion, that the threats are correctly identified, and the policies created to respond to respond to the threats are also correct, I don't think anyone can argue that the AFP is not underfunded. This chronic underfunding self-sabotages the AFP. No matter what the threat is and no matter what sort of defense policy the Philippine adopts, if insufficient money is allocated then the AFP becomes less capable of dealing with said threat.

 

[aim-7 sparrow]

hi sturm, i guess our govt is heading towards internal threats the way our budget was allocated. i also believe with your observation that some here knew that we need AFP modernization minus the minions that will surely agree in every decisions made by our prex even at the expense of strengthening our military.

tonnyc, i do agree that our defense budget is really small compared to other Asian neighbors, specially with the current admin though they say that this year is the biggest so far but in my understanding this not in line with the plan requested by the AFP for this year. I was intrigued by your data that we can put more budget in our defense without sacrificing other services for people because there are military people now serving as senator and congressmen, and even with the previous administration.

 

[STURM]

I really wish that were true, but you really only sometimes get that out of those in middle-class and upper circles or out of the big universities...

Maybe so but then again for certain elements of society; the way they see it, priority is on earning a living. Whether the AFP gets a pre-used C-130 from the U.S. or newly built AFVs is secondary as for them, the main focus is on making ends meet. Personally, I don't blame them for thinking this way. Having said that, I haven't spoken much to academics or middle class people but the many people I meet tend to agree that greater investments have to be made to the AFP.

The way I see it there first must be a clear and consistent policy coming from the top. Irrespective of whether the Philippines adopts [what Duterte calls an ''independent policy''] and really downgrades ties with Uncle Sam and in return forges new relationships with countries such as China and Russia; there first must be a well defined and well though out policy on the kind of threats facing the Philippines and what the country's priorities will be.

I don't think anyone can argue that the AFP is not underfunded.

There is no doubt that the AFP is underfunded and over stretched but this is nothing new - the rot started setting in from the 1970's [when an insurgency developed with the MNLF and the NPA] and it didn't help that the economy started going downhill. Of course having Uncle Sam in Subic and Clark meant that the country was protected from any external threats.

The main difference now however is that in recent years funds have been progressively made available for procurement and there appears to be a greater sense of urgency or realisation on the part the government. A longstanding problem is that the AFP [especially the army and Marines] were bogged down in a long, never ending campaign against the likes of the NPA, MILF and MNLF. Things have mostly quietened down now but there are still groups like the ASG and BIFF to deal with and the fact remains that the PNP can't handle them on its own.

hi sturm, i guess our govt is heading towards internal threats the way our budget was allocated. thanks for the reply.

Well there now appears to be a greater sense of urgency to equip the AFP to better defend against external threats and the government is able to thanks to an improved economy. In the past yes, there was no urgency as there were no serious external threats [the same applies now but recent events in the South china Sea show the AFP is ill equipped to even deal with peacetime threats that require better equipment to monitor the country's seas] and the government had no choice but to focus attention on non state actors as these actors were ones posing the main threat to the country.

 

[tonnyc]

Previously I pointed out that the Philippines had some 278 billion peso unspent back in 2015. Recently I found out that there is currently 200 billion peso left unspent from previous budget years.
Budget Secretary Diokno said there is at least 200 billion peso left unused. Think about it.

The money is there. I am not saying let's go on a spending spree, but really, the Philippines does have the money and can buy fighter jets and submarines without sacrificing the well being of the average Filipinos.

 

[STURM]

without sacrificing the well being of the average Filipinos.

I don't think anybody here's saying otherwise. The fact remains however that because the PN has been under resourced for so and lacks the capabilities that neighbouring countries do; focus must first be placed on creating an shore support infrastructure to support whatever new assets are procured. Taking SSKs as an example; logic and prudence would dictate that the PN focuses on other areas before it gets into the expensive game of not only buying but also maintaining SSKs. Given its present state and its operational commitments; stuff like a new class of frigates/corvettes, coastal radars and MPAs would be far more useful than SSKs. This is not to say that the PN shouldn't consider SSKs at some point in the future.

 

[tonnyc]

SturmI honestly do not see why you felt you had to respond to me with that. You might be reading too much into my post. My thesis is that the Philippines can afford them. Yours seem to be that they are not ready. The two aren't the same. The first must be established first before the issue of readiness can be asked. As long as the average Philippines people believe that they can't afford defense, they'll never be ready nor will they take the steps to be ready.

 

[STURM]

I never said nor implied they were the same thing.

You pointed out that they have the cash. I agreed and but I also pointed out that what they should do is to get what they currently need to meet current operational requirements, as opposed to SSKs and other sexy stuff that can wait, and that they will also have to make sure they have the needed shore support infrastructure to support what they eventually get. The last thing they need is to get stuff and find out that maintaining that stuff is hard because of a lack of shore support. Maintaining that stuff will also be more expensive compared to what they currently operate because of the various system on board; it's one thing having the cash; a completely different thing allocating the needed resources to operate and maintain new stuff that's bought; as others have discovered.

No, I don't think I was reading too much into your post; I'm quite sure I understand what you're getting at.

 

[gf0012-aust]

obliquely related to Phillipine Navy in the long run

Top Philippine officials fly to US carrier in disputed sea - Pacific - Stripes

 

[aim-7 sparrow]

no, this is just a plain, simple "field trip" of PH officials
what can we learn in joining US forces in their aircraft carrier? na-da.
what we need is concrete action in funding the PN modernization projects
PN already listed their concerns, our executives should do their shares in allocating funds for the PN projects.

 

[aim-7 sparrow]

no, this is just a plain, simple "field trip" of PH officials
what can we learn in joining US forces in their aircraft carrier? na-da.
what we need is concrete action in funding the PN modernization projects
PN already listed their concerns, our executives should do their shares in allocating funds for the PN projects.

 

[gf0012-aust]

not modernization but a PN issue

Duterte Deploys Troops to South China Sea | World Affairs Journal

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

That's a very remarkable development....after many months of licking-the-arses-of-the-Chinese policy...while having a hostile attitude towards the US. Or maybe he already asked permission from the Chinese for this.

 

[aim-7 sparrow]

sir just to correct the title of your attachment, it should be "Duterte To Deploy Troops to South China Sea", and this was not materialized coz our "brave" prez backout his plan to go there on our Independence Day.
AFP later clarified that they will just improve the facilities on islands that we're currently occupying.

 

[aim-7 sparrow]

sandhi, there's no such development that we may consider remarkable as of now. we're still watched by china patrolling west philippine sea. there was a time when our fisherfolks were granted to fish in Scarborough but lately being harassed again.
we have a prez being friendly to china, but china is rushing to weed out PH in claims of WPS... one hand feeding us with soft loans and one hand pushing us out of WPS.

 

[OPSSG]

Finally, after 9 years of talking here, we finally see pictures of the new warships being built and giving us an idea of their capability.

Philippine Navy's first ever missile-capable warship hits water

On 24 October 2016, the contract to supply two brand new vessels was signed between the Philippine Department of National Defense, and Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI). The first frigate ordered from HHI under this contract, the future BRP Jose Rizal (FF-150) was launched in May 2019 and built based on the Incheon/FFX-I/HDF-3000. The BRP Jose Rizal is scheduled to be delivered to the Philippines by September 2020.

The keel laying ceremony for Philippine Navy’s second future BRP Antonio Luna (FF-151) was held at Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) shipyard in South Korea on 23 May 2019 and slated for delivery in March 2021. Finally, a real new build warship after years of talk. This will be their navy's most capable warships when they enter service. These vessels will be a good match with the newly delivered AgustaWestland AW159 Mk.220 Wildcat naval helicopters and are also expected to escort the two Tarlac-class landing dock platforms, the BRP Tarlac (LD-601) and BRP Davao del Sur (LD-602), while on missions. Prior to this, it could be argued that the former Hamilton-class cutters, hand me downs from the US Coast Guard were the Philippine Navy’s most capable warships that are in service.