US Navy News and updates

[t68]

I came across this article from another site, I hope our American friends can sort this out they have another couple of years to work the bugs out and find those fixes.

In testing phase, new carrier plagued by problems - News - Stripes)

 

[Anixtu]

With USS Makin Island (LHD-8) & USS America (LHA-6) using combined diesel/gas turbine propulsion it somewhat makes logistics for bunkerage easier for the ship and aircraft.

No change to fuel types required. Ships = F-76. Naval Aircraft = F-44.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The Wasp class can function as aircraft carriers, operating 20 AV-8Bs in the sea control role, plus six ASW helicopters,
With USS Makin Island (LHD-8) & USS America (LHA-6) using combined diesel/gas turbine propulsion it somewhat makes logistics for bunkerage easier for the ship and aircraft.

I remember a USN officer heaping praise on these type of vessel as it’s a cheaper way of getting in fixed wing naval operations without the huge cost of CATOBAR cousins.

I think i've said elsewhere on here that the ESG/ARG's are defacto carriers when you take JSF/B as a fitout

the USN effectively has close to 20 potential carrier battle groups of various capabilities

 

[Volkodav]

Where do the displaced helos go when the additional F-35B are embarked? How does the increase in fast jets impact on the LHD /LHA amphibious load out and capability?

In the future will the MLPs be used to hold the non embarked ESG aviation assets (less the Hercs of course) or will the aviation capabilities of the LSD replacement be enhanced to take the displaced helos?

An ESG type group could actually be affordable and sustainable for many medium sized navies and would provide combat power greater than the RN was able to dispatch to the Falklands in 1982. The only real gap is AEW but looking at the options for Crowsnest the USN should have no problem deploying something should they release the requirement.

 

[t68]

I think i've said elsewhere on here that the ESG/ARG's are defacto carriers when you take JSF/B as a fitout

the USN effectively has close to 20 potential carrier battle groups of various capabilities

Yes am aware that very thought has been said many times by you and AG and others over the years, just trying to highlight the capability for Volkodov.

That reference to the Harrier carriers during Iraqi Freedom apparently the helicopter assets were put ashore and the additional Harriers might have made used staging areas in third countries as well as AAR assets to reach the LHD. That’s an assumption on my part and you know what that means.

But I would imagine even with 20/24 Harriers/F35B pocket carriers it still will be limited to what it can achieve in terms of combat weight as that’s why the UK came up with the magical number of 36 fast jet fixed wing numbers for the CVF(sortie rate)

http://navysite.de/navy/iraqi-freedom.htm

 

[Volkodav]

Yes am aware that very thought has been said many times by you and AG and others over the years, just trying to highlight the capability for Volkodov.

That reference to the Harrier carriers during Iraqi Freedom apparently the helicopter assets were put ashore and the additional Harriers might have made used staging areas in third countries as well as AAR assets to reach the LHD. That’s an assumption on my part and you know what that means.

But I would imagine even with 20/24 Harriers/F35B pocket carriers it still will be limited to what it can achieve in terms of combat weight as that’s why the UK came up with the magical number of 36 fast jet fixed wing numbers for the CVF(sortie rate)

US Navy Order of Battle - Operation Iraqi Freedom

Thanks for that, I was aware of the design intent for the Wasps to be able to operate 20 Harriers and 6 ASW helos as well as the Gulf War deployment. I was just wondering what , if any, amphibious capability is retained when surging F-35B.

 

[CB90]

Where do the displaced helos go when the additional F-35B are embarked? How does the increase in fast jets impact on the LHD /LHA amphibious load out and capability?

In the future will the MLPs be used to hold the non embarked ESG aviation assets (less the Hercs of course) or will the aviation capabilities of the LSD replacement be enhanced to take the displaced helos?

An ESG type group could actually be affordable and sustainable for many medium sized navies and would provide combat power greater than the RN was able to dispatch to the Falklands in 1982. The only real gap is AEW but looking at the options for Crowsnest the USN should have no problem deploying something should they release the requirement.

The helos go where ever there is room. Either they simply don't deploy in the first place, or they can be offloaded to a land base. Aviation and amphib capability are pretty much separate from each other. Aviation storage areas don't really dual purpose as amphib operations support very well, and vice versa.

Real world example is BATAAN during OIF. Basically, with Marine units crossing the line with Army units, the amphibious assault capabilities became superfluous, so they just plused up the Harrier contingent. The challenges of operating like that are what caused the "good idea" of the design of AMERICA.

 

[Volkodav]

The helos go where ever there is room. Either they simply don't deploy in the first place, or they can be offloaded to a land base. Aviation and amphib capability are pretty much separate from each other. Aviation storage areas don't really dual purpose as amphib operations support very well, and vice versa.

Real world example is BATAAN during OIF. Basically, with Marine units crossing the line with Army units, the amphibious assault capabilities became superfluous, so they just plused up the Harrier contingent. The challenges of operating like that are what caused the "good idea" of the design of AMERICA.

America doesn't really make sense does it? Its not a proper amphib or a proper carrier, just a bit of both without the flexibility of a dock. I suppose they could have gone a less compromised path and designed her with a dock and space for one LCAC that were she could have had extra space for aviation stuff but still be able to off load the USMC heavy gear, especially if accompanied by a LSD with four LCAC.

I am a real fan of ESGs and am trying to work out just how flexible they are, i.e. could they retain their full amphibious capability if the other ships in the group had more substantial aviation facilities.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I am a real fan of ESGs and am trying to work out just how flexible they are, i.e. could they retain their full amphibious capability if the other ships in the group had more substantial aviation facilities.

I can see the opportunity of ESG's turning into ASW Hunter Killer Groups if things continue to deteriorate in the SCS and ECS

 

[Volkodav]

Another though, I could see a APD type mission set being development for the LCS. Sort of like the surface action one but say with assault helos and combat boats.

 

[Todjaeger]

I can see the opportunity of ESG's turning into ASW Hunter Killer Groups if things continue to deteriorate in the SCS and ECS

Could you see a place for some sort of carrier fixed-wing ASW MPA like the old S-2 Tracker or S-3 Viking (pre-EW fitout)? Or would helicopters with dipping sonars still be better?

-Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

Could you see a place for some sort of carrier fixed-wing ASW MPA like the old S-2 Tracker? Or would helicopters with dipping sonars still be better?

-Cheers

Maybe I'm showing my age, but I reckon it was just bad planning not replacing the S3's - there's a role for fixed wing and rotors for the ASW hunter killer mission and depending on land based BAMs for supp roles limits you straight away.

It will be interesting to see how good the Sth Korean refurbs are with current tech

damn shame they don't have a real carrier to launch them from

 

[Todjaeger]

Maybe I'm showing my age, but I reckon it was just bad planning not replacing the S3's - there's a role for fixed wing and rotors for the ASW hunter killer mission and depending on land based BAMs for supp roles limits you straight away.

It will be interesting to see how good the Sth Korean refurbs are with current tech

damn shame they don't have a real carrier to launch them from

Okay, that answered my question. I was not sure if the greater altitude, loiter time and ordnance/stores capacity was outweighed by the inability to 'dip'. It does make me wonder if perhaps a few other nations which operate flat(ish)tops might consider reviving such a capability.

As for the S. Koreans, I take it something like the Dokdo-class LPH is not capable of operating them either due to space, deck weight limits, or lack of a catapult on the flight deck.

-Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

Okay, that answered my question. I was not sure if the greater altitude, loiter time and ordnance/stores capacity was outweighed by the inability to 'dip'. It does make me wonder if perhaps a few other nations which operate flat(ish)tops might consider reviving such a capability.

They can't dip, but they can sure as heck sow an array and cause some grief through persistence. The whole idea of the S2's and S3's was to be able to extend the ASW range ring and allow the helos or ships to follow up as they closed the gap.

As for the S. Koreans, I take it something like the Dokdo-class LPH is not capable of operating them either due to space, deck weight limits, or lack of a catapult on the flight deck.

yep, unfort they're no USS Randolph (CVS) etc...., but at least in an ASW HK role they could have enough rotors on board to maintain a degree of persistence.

 

[Volkodav]

They can't dip, but they can sure as heck sow an array and cause some grief through persistence. The whole idea of the S2's and S3's was to be able to extend the ASW range ring and allow the helos or ships to follow up as they closed the gap.



yep, unfort they're no USS Randolph (CVS) etc...., but at least in an ASW HK role they could have enough rotors on board to maintain a degree of persistence.

From memory the UK used to rate each ASW Helo on station as equivalent to an escort frigate in the screen and worked on the basis of needing three helos to maintain that one on station. I imagine the USN has a similar equation.

On the fixed wing ASW side I wonder how a variant of the Osprey would do in the role? It would have a better payload and range than any ASW helo giving it persistence at the out ASW ring and there was actually an SV-22 planned, any chance on a Lazarus on that one?

 

[gf0012-aust]

From memory the UK used to rate each ASW Helo on station as equivalent to an escort frigate in the screen and worked on the basis of needing three helos to maintain that one on station. I imagine the USN has a similar equation.

On the fixed wing ASW side I wonder how a variant of the Osprey would do in the role? It would have a better payload and range than any ASW helo giving it persistence at the out ASW ring and there was actually an SV-22 planned, any chance on a Lazarus on that one?

seems eminently sensible - so unlikely to happen

It would be interesting to know what impact Osprey cavitation and assoc acoustics would have on onboard ASW gear

I imagine that LM would be avidly watching with interest how the SouK Vikings go, and it wouldn't surprise me if a future solution is sitting in their Catia library files somewhere.....

 

[Volkodav]

seems eminently sensible - so unlikely to happen

It would be interesting to know what impact Osprey cavitation and assoc acoustics would have on onboard ASW gear

I imagine that LM would be avidly watching with interest how the SouK Vikings go, and it wouldn't surprise me if a future solution is sitting in their Catia library files somewhere.....

Its actually too bad the US never developed a replacement CVS class during the 60s or 70s, or even better a CVL they could have sold to allies as their old WWII vintage carriers wore out. Something that was designed with Viking, Hawkeye and Phantom in mind.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Its actually too bad the US never developed a replacement CVS class during the 60s or 70s, or even better a CVL they could have sold to allies as their old WWII vintage carriers wore out. Something that was designed with Viking, Hawkeye and Phantom in mind.

yeah, unfort they killed off a whole swag of them to save money (and support assets) - so getting replacements would have defeated the purpose of pulling the penants in the first place

 

[Volkodav]

yeah, unfort they killed off a whole swag of them to save money (and support assets) - so getting replacements would have defeated the purpose of pulling the penants in the first place

They could have done it as a parallel project with the LHAs sharing some design features and systems. The CVS could have had a longer hull without the well deck, perhaps using that space for an extra pair of shafts, turbines and their boilers. It would have been similar in size to the original converted CVS but designed with larger heavier aircraft in mind.

 

[ASSAIL]

seems eminently sensible - so unlikely to happen

It would be interesting to know what impact Osprey cavitation and assoc acoustics would have on onboard ASW gear

I imagine that LM would be avidly watching with interest how the SouK Vikings go, and it wouldn't surprise me if a future solution is sitting in their Catia library files somewhere.....

If Ospreys were to be used as ASW assets then I doubt that the "cavitation" would be of consequence. If things haven't changed that much from the old CVS days, the whole reason for the S-2,3 was for them to sow the buoys and then get up to height to get the max radio range of the buoys, 15,000-20,000 square miles was a pretty average search area for normal S2 escort ops. The low level stuff only begins with classification and attack.
I'm unaware of the current buoy searches with helos but I assume the search areas are far more limited. If the helo is monitoring buoys and dipping at the same time it certainly would be so.
Melbourne's standard Air Group was 4 x A4, 6 x S2 and 8 - 10 Seakings and a couple of SAR Wessex. With that compliment a pair of Seakings could be maintained on screen continuously for exercises with extra available if needed to prosecute contacts.
Without those fixed wing assets the force was considerably neutered.

Chris