STOBAR always struck me as the worst of all worlds - the payload and bring back of STOVL and all the landing stress of CATOBAR.
Indian Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter dragonfire
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Just out of curiosity, if you could combine a catapult launch mechanism with a ski jump, wouldn't you be able to launch at significantly heavier take-off weights even with lower wind-over-deck conditions? I recall reading about Charles de Gaulle unable to launch Mirage fighters with a full weapons load during the Libya campaign which I attributed to it's relatively slow speed of around 23 knots despite being a nuke.
Getting a catapult track to follow a ski jump profile could be a challenge however. CdG I think can do 28 knots if all her screws hang on to their shafts.
CdG went through some early teething troubles though - so it might be a point in time issue
eg they discovered that launch length was too short at one point. the cats are calibrated for launch aircraft and load - so they can compensate for over deck wind speed issues - and she can definitely go faster than 23knots into the wind
The ship was bought in 2004 but the deal was in progress for years before that (sound familiar?). At the time what other options were there? The only other available carriers in that time frame were the Clemenceau class. One went to Brazil in 2000 and the other rusted until 2004 and both were run pretty ragged.
At the time it was the only option and the Russian's offered India a deal that if you didn't look at it too hard looked pretty good. Too bad India didn't listen to the naval architects who did an independent assessment of the ship and said not to touch it. A lot of bad procurement programs seem to happen because the options are "this, or nothing". The Canadian submarine saga comes to mind.
:Fair question I guess - what else to do? With hindsight, they'd have had a better time of it licensing CVF with UK industrial participation, they could have had one one fitting out by now. Sod the Migs, make the NZ's an offer on their scooters (which were fitted to a very modern standard and you've a pretty decent gap filler for Harrier, talk to the French about integrating MICA for BVR (I don't think the US would sell them AIM120, that being the stumbling block for the sale of Shar2) - and you'd have a fairly cheap but pretty useful CATOBAR kernel to build on.
As is, they're going to have three (I think) single ship classes of carrier, one of which cost more than a new build CVF.
Or buy Shar2 from the UK with spares, go STOVL with a di Cavour derivative with Italy?
Hell, anything has to be better than what they got in the form of a STOBAR carrier that had laid derelict for ten years and for which no-one had the plans for anymore..
The Clemenceau's were probably a better bet even - but a new build with GT's would be way cheaper to run.
Invincible would have been coming up for sale in 2005 - that's half the crew size of the Russian jobby..
I can see why they went that direction but I think come ten years, the Indians will have an awkward mix of ships, machinery and operating methods, using up a lot of manpower to keep them ticking over.
As is, they're going to have three (I think) single ship classes of carrier, one of which cost more than a new build CVF.
Or buy Shar2 from the UK with spares, go STOVL with a di Cavour derivative with Italy?
Hell, anything has to be better than what they got in the form of a STOBAR carrier that had laid derelict for ten years and for which no-one had the plans for anymore..
The Clemenceau's were probably a better bet even - but a new build with GT's would be way cheaper to run.
Invincible would have been coming up for sale in 2005 - that's half the crew size of the Russian jobby..
I can see why they went that direction but I think come ten years, the Indians will have an awkward mix of ships, machinery and operating methods, using up a lot of manpower to keep them ticking over.
With hind sight there are more options, join CVF, have the Spanish build an enlarged version of the PdA, or teamed up with the Italians. However those would still all be STOBAR or jump jet carriers.
Any new CATOBAR build would have a hurtle of getting the US State Department to approve the sale of the cats, no one else makes them (or has made a new set since at least the 1960's). That would also be the stumbling block in getting hot rodded A-4's. NZ would need State approval for sale to another country. In the early 2000's none of that would of happened. 2009 and above they probably could of gotten permission and catapults.
Any modification of the scooters would of had Israeli tech rather than the French since the Indians have worked extensively with the Israelis in the past and they were a user of the A-4.
Remember the original deal was the ship itself was "Free" but the refit was for $800 million in 2004 USD. Even the critics who said that was an extreme underestimation of the cost never imagined it would total out at nearly 2.4 billion USD, or that India wouldn't walk away after the cost started ballooning and Russia started making claims that if India didn't want the carrier they'd be happy to keep it (without refunding any money).
Well, I suppose the Chinese could of used a third one as a museum/casino/resort...
Back in 2008 there was a rumor that the Indians would be offered the Kitty Hawk. The Indian media ran with it and the forums went crazy while the US DoD scratched their heads since no one ever offered the ship to anyone, eventually a reporter asked about it and it was denied on both ends.
You are thinking like a 1st worlder where service members are well paid and expensive. A steam ship is still dirt cheap to run for a country that can just throw people at it (so to speak).
Too small to run anything other than Harrier and it has a messed up hangar. It could probably serve as an interim ship until their own new builds come on line however. But why do that if you can just keep their existing ship limping along?
That is the IN method of operation, why do you expect that to change?
Ehehe..yeah - complicated problem. We can stand here and go "ooh...noo.." but standing there..
I'm just ahead of the curve on costs - their labour costs will get more expensive and at some point very soon, steam plants will be an "aiieee..WTF" item on the budget.
Can't blame them on not picking CVF - we didn't believe it as a nation (and still in some circles are in denial about it) - but we are delivering the carriers on (scheduled) time and on (rescheduled) budget. In short, they're looking pretty solid right now but in 2004? Nah
I do think a follow on STOVL carrier to phase out Hermes earlier would have made sense, and they could have had aircraft in the air on a new platform say, 2006, with some space to then build a proper fix for a decent solution instead of some half *rsed Russian Zombie carrier..
Or taking the risky step of getting some engineering firm in Scotland to dig out their blueprints & re-start production (theoretically possible - they do still have the technical documentation, & used it when helping the Brazilians refurbish the cats on Sao Paulo) of catapults, or the still more risky step of backing the then barely started EMKIT/EMCAT development . . . .
the concerned
Active Member
I understand the 3rd cv will be around 60,000 tons do you think it is likely that this could be a joint Russian venture. Aren't the Russians looking to renew their cv fleet but have a problem with building capacity at the moment.
Yeah, but I was thinking EMAL tech might be able to follow the contour of the ramp.
Wiki says CdG max speed is 27 knots... the 23 knot figure sticks in my mind, maybe the CdG was having a bad day
anyway, was able to find confirmation of reduced warload on Rafales..The Libyan Air Operation: A French Perspective | SLDInfo
SLD: What were the advantages to operate the Rafale from the Charles de Gaulle?
Lt. Gen. Desclaux: Basically, in the AOR, whether the Rafale was air or navy, it was conducting the same type of mission; 70 percent dynamic targeting, and 30 percent deliberate targeting. Obviously the advantage of being on an aircraft carrier is you’re closer from the theater of operation. The disadvantage when you take off from a French carrier is that your Rafale brings less ammunition than when taking off from a runway.
For example, with the Rafale from land, you can take off with two cruise missiles, as from the carrier it’s only one. The air force Rafale can take off from the land with six 250 kilos bombs – from the carrier, it only was four. You’re closer but you bring less ammunitions and you need gas anyway because in the dynamic targeting operation loiter time is important to mission success.
The launcher is not operating for the full length of the track
the other options are RATO/JATO
With hindsight, getting the Scottish firm to get back into production seems like a sure bet compared to the twists and turns of the Russian refurb
In actuality, licensing production of cats and starting a native build seems relatively straight forward given Indian ambitions for domestic build carriers..You'd need an interim of STOVL ops with something that worked (Shar2 with a pile of parts, which would be pretty capable for the area, assuming they got to keep their radar sets)
They'd have been straight up in 2004/5 with a set of competitive STOVL jets with a BVR capability, assuming MICA ties in neatly or one of the Russian equivalents works okay (I'm voting Mica given the Russian spares/supply train issues)
CATOBAR still has (for the Indians) limited options around that time - would the US permit SH sales today? Not a lot of CATOBAR designs out there - just Rafale and SH.
Still, a GT powered modern design with CATOBAR ops on tap, flying Rafale would be in the water, right now for probably less cash and a lot less stuff-ups.
Has India got an international partner for their future carrier build? I thought I'd heard Fincan ?
IIRC swerve has previously mentioned Fincantieri are aiding elements of the design and are responsible for integrating the propulsion systems, both prime movers and reserves, into that design.
Older reports go on to say that the propulsion will be based on that of Cavour, which makes sense. 4 GT's (LM2500) backed up by diesel generators for INS Vikrant. Expanded for INS Vishal as even if they go for conventional over nuclear propulsion, it's double the tonnage.
Older reports go on to say that the propulsion will be based on that of Cavour, which makes sense. 4 GT's (LM2500) backed up by diesel generators for INS Vikrant. Expanded for INS Vishal as even if they go for conventional over nuclear propulsion, it's double the tonnage.
Maybe that was when she had to use the old propellers from Clemenceau.Yeah, but I was thinking EMAL tech might be able to follow the contour of the ramp.
Wiki says CdG max speed is 27 knots... the 23 knot figure sticks in my mind, maybe the CdG was having a bad day
I don't think so, she got her new screws well before Libya AFAIK. Anyway, 23 knots or 27 knots, what struck me back then was that here was a CATOBAR nuke-powered ship that seemed to offer STOBAR performance.
Yeah, probably right.. just comparing it with a F-35B that can launch with a similar warload i.e. 2 X 1000lb JDAMs and 2X AMRAAMs without benefit of a cat.
I doubt they will approach the cost of a Japanese, American or UK sailor in the next ten years. However I do see their labor costs rising, just not enough to make steam unattractive for the next few decades.
DDG-1000 looked pretty awful back in 2004 as well and now looks fantastic.Can't blame them on not picking CVF - we didn't believe it as a nation (and still in some circles are in denial about it) - but we are delivering the carriers on (scheduled) time and on (rescheduled) budget. In short, they're looking pretty solid right now but in 2004? Nah
The Brazilians are launching Turbo-Trackers and rebuilt A-4's, not fully loaded or nearly fully loaded Rafale's or Shornets.
The Russians have been stating they want a new carrier for 15 or so years now with no sign of a real project moving forward. Basically I won't believe it until a hull is steaming under its own power.
Also at this point the IN is probably a bit weary about teaming up with the Russians again on any shipbuilding project.
With hindsight, getting the Scottish firm to get back into production seems like a sure bet compared to the twists and turns of the Russian refurb
Yes, they'd need a beefed-up version of those old British catapults - but they existed, & were used by the RN to launch fully-laden F-4Ks & Buccaneers. AFAIK the design drawings still exist for all the models.
Absolutely. And that Israeli kit had already been ordered for the IN's older Sea Harriers when India decided that the ex-RN SHARs were useless without Blue Vixen & AIM-120. Doh! Somehow, even opening negotiations with the Israelis on doing the same for the ex-RN airframes was too difficult. Amazing.
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