The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[StobieWan]

Been following the debate on the three additional OPV's on various forums with a slight sense of despair over the unreality of some of the discussion.

My 2c worth, adding a hangar isn't feasible - simply because there aren't going to be any helicopters available to fill them out. Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect adding a hangar to them would be an expensive embuggerance simply because there's not enough helicopters to go around. Unless someone wants to spring for another three wildcats plus two dozen crew, which adds up to the price of the three ships as is, the hangar won't be of any use.

Now ScanEagle on the other hand...

Gun - no, no no, we're not buying 'em with a 76mm or a 57mm or anything else that's not in service. The only possible exception might be a navalised mount for the 40mm CTA weapon being rolled out for Warrior lethality improvement program as it'd be a weapon and round already in use with UK forces. Unlikely.

 

[RobWilliams]

30mm is perfectly sufficient as an OPV. Big enough to deal with pirates and what-not alongside the usual small arms, but nothing big enough to make politicians think it's capable of dealing with much more than that.

I would like a hanger, purely because most of the material i've seen about drug smugglers/people trafficking/pirates + other suspicious vessels has been dealt with using helicopter support. The most recent bust in October with HMS Lancaster was the result of a Royal Marine sniper disabling the crafts engine from a Lynx. An earlier example with Lancaster was in August where USC&BA aircraft spotted the boat and the Lynx was deployed to intercept.

For those sorts of ops, the speed and firepower of the embarked helicopter is invaluable. But as you say, the stumbling block is the fact we're replacing something like 35+ Lynx with 28 Wildcat. I suppose one cack-handed benefit is that we've got less ships to deploy them on . . . . .

If they're looking for them to be serious OPVs used abroad rather than patrolling UK waters, then I'd like a Wildcat please.

 

[Systems Adict]

I think that there might be IPR rights 'issues' , WRT the River class.

While BAE bought out VT, I don't think they bought out the rights to all their previous production drawings, etc. IMHO, It is obvious that they have the data for the Oman & Brazil hullforms, as they are based on the rivers, but it shouldn't be forgotten that BAE had the F2000 class, variants of which were built for Brunei.

All that said, IF they can get agreement to a 'build-to-print' a 'copy' of the Brazil / T&T / Thai Krabi hull form, then BAE will be happy.

...& to help even me see the similarities, here are some pics...

(River - Thai - T&T/Brazil - Oman - Brunei/Indonesian)

http://games.aanhet.net/gfx/sr/river-class.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/SviqOKRkI2I/AAAAAAAADxY/1dJ32TdlzQY/s400/Thai+OPV+2_Thales.jpg

http://www.naval.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/OPV-foto-BAE-Systems.jpg

http://htka.hu/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Omani-corvette-Al-Shamikh-Khareef-class.jpg

http://www.drookitagain.co.uk/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Brunia_OPV,_Scotstoun.jpg

 

[RobWilliams]

Basically a Khareef scratch 76mm/Mica/Exocet would do me just fine. Bigger crew but presumably by not having any of those systems there'd be no requirement for engineer/warfare crew to do with those systems so that's a thing.

But it'll probably still be a T&T OPV

 

[Systems Adict]

@Stobie & Rob - I can agree with both of you, while arguing the opposite (how's that for a contradiction in terms ??)

Anyway, I'd reckon to an OPV with flight deck facilities, but no hangar & a 30mm up front, not either the 57 or 76mm...

It is a shame that the x3 OPV's for Brunei, went to Indonesia, I'd heard a couple of odd rumors that while the RN had looked at them (as there was some commonality with the rest of the fleet), there were just too many differences & the sales reps / previous owners were asking too much (allegedly asking for what they'ed paid for them).

Then again, it gives them a fresh canvas, while providing the employment to keep the shipyard workers busy till T26 comes online, assuming that Scotland votes 'NO'.

But the less said about the politics, the better...

 

[KiwiRob]

All that said, IF they can get agreement to a 'build-to-print' a 'copy' of the Brazil / T&T / Thai Krabi hull form, then BAE will be happy.

...& to help even me see the similarities, here are some pics...

(River - Thai - T&T/Brazil - Oman - Brunei/Indonesian)

The above all look significantly different from a River, the River class has a very angular hull form, the Thai and Brazilian versions look significantly different, so how close are they to the River design, cause it sure looks like a massively different ship to me.

 

[StobieWan]

If, by some miraculous diversion from reality we buy three Venators with a hangar I won't complain.

I have no *objection* to a hangar other than those expressed - we have no helos to go with the hangar.

We'll see - I shall be interested to see how this plugs in with the MHPC thing (utterly derails it I should think!) Basically, by 2020, we'll have three of the Rivers aged 15 or so, and three brand new OPV's, and the Sandown's are good for another decade after that.

Bollocks to Black Swan I say

I'm still leaning towards the Clyde +1 design but if there's a tolerably off the shelf OPV with a decent fit out I shall easily be lured astray.

 

[AegisFC]

I would like a hanger, purely because most of the material i've seen about drug smugglers/people trafficking/pirates + other suspicious vessels has been dealt with using helicopter support. The most recent bust in October with HMS Lancaster was the result of a Royal Marine sniper disabling the crafts engine from a Lynx. An earlier example with Lancaster was in August where USC&BA aircraft spotted the boat and the Lynx was deployed to intercept.

For those sorts of ops, the speed and firepower of the embarked helicopter is invaluable. But as you say, the stumbling block is the fact we're replacing something like 35+ Lynx with 28 Wildcat. I suppose one cack-handed benefit is that we've got less ships to deploy them on . . . . .

If they're looking for them to be serious OPVs used abroad rather than patrolling UK waters, then I'd like a Wildcat please.

Back in 2001 my first Burke was tasked with MIO ops in the Gulf and briefly hosted a SEAL team and helo and one of them had a .50 cal sniper rifle for that purpose.
Even if there are not enough helo's to go around a hangar is a nifty thing to have since the crew can use it for extra storage or other uses.

 

[RobWilliams]

If, by some miraculous diversion from reality we buy three Venators with a hangar I won't complain.

I have no *objection* to a hangar other than those expressed - we have no helos to go with the hangar.

Venator has been thrown around as being a good design for MHPC.

That'll be the bane of our fleet. Our HM2's & Wildcats will be stretched as far as they can go. Our 25 Merlin HC4's will - eventually - become the general purpose helo for the Navy most probably.

We'll see - I shall be interested to see how this plugs in with the MHPC thing (utterly derails it I should think!) Basically, by 2020, we'll have three of the Rivers aged 15 or so, and three brand new OPV's, and the Sandown's are good for another decade after that.

Bollocks to Black Swan I say

I'm still leaning towards the Clyde +1 design but if there's a tolerably off the shelf OPV with a decent fit out I shall easily be lured astray.

IIRC the first MHPC craft (currently, and this is a very long way away anyway) is due to enter service in 2028. It is a bit of a curve-ball because MHPC is first and foremost a replacement for our MCMVs, so they'll be replaced first. When the first MHPC comes online, the Rivers will be reaching something like 25 years service, so they'll be gone. Question is what then? Do we then pull these new OPVs back to UK waters (~10 y/o about now) but gap abroad OPV commitments?

Meh, this is all too far in the future for me to think about it too much

 

[StobieWan]

Back in 2001 my first Burke was tasked with MIO ops in the Gulf and briefly hosted a SEAL team and helo and one of them had a .50 cal sniper rifle for that purpose.
Even if there are not enough helo's to go around a hangar is a nifty thing to have since the crew can use it for extra storage or other uses.

A helicopter would be useful if they were to be deployed out of home waters as they're already in regular demand for disaster relief and humanitarian stuff. In terms of storage or extra assignable space, the Venator has facilities built in to accept up to six TEU's I believe - for a sort of modular fit. I'm thinking stretch accommodation or generators for use ashore, the sort of things that fit in a disaster relief or evac of nationals, the sort of low key thing the RN has had to send a Frigate to do right now and which one of these OPV's might be in line to tackle.

I'm still interested to see where they fit into the regular lineup - and indeed, if they will fit into a lineup or just be three make-work ships.

 

[153jam]

On a lighter note, the QE's ski ramp is fitted meaning the outward structure is complete! (minus the lifts and radar).

New pictures are on the official RN website. Nice to see it with some more war paint on too.

From the RN website:
"The very last piece of Britain’s biggest jigsaw – the Royal Navy’s flagship of tomorrow, HMS Queen Elizabeth – has been slotted into place.
The hull of the carrier is now complete after the last section of her ‘ski ramp’, which will help F35 Lightning IIs get airborne off the expansive flight deck, was fitted at Rosyth dockyard.

With the addition of the 130-tonne section, the finished ramp stands more than six metres (20ft) high, although at 300 tonnes the completed structure weighs less than half a per cent of the total displacement of Queen Elizabeth: 65,000 tonnes.

“Everyone involved in the programme to deliver HMS Queen Elizabeth should feel tremendously proud of what we have all achieved to get to this point.

“Thousands of men and women across the country have worked together as one team in a remarkable demonstration of British skills and capabilities.”

“I get excited about what’s happening next week, let alone next year.

“My guys love it. They get to be involved, they get their hands on things which they’d not normally do, and they’ve got the chance to influence the ship and how she operates.

“The important thing about this ship is that she’ll be flying the flag one day, flying jets the next. She’ll be at the heart of the UK’s defence for the next 50 years.”

The carrier is due to be ‘launched’ – she’ll actually be flooded up, with water being allowed into the dry dock where she’s being constructed for the first time – next summer. "

 

[StobieWan]

Fabulous After all that bitching, moaning and whining from everyone about how it'll never happen, the actual ships are coming together very well indeed.

 

[RobWilliams]

Much rather that ramp layout rather than a few of the weirder designs showing the entire front of the ship being a ramp. Results in decent deck space to the right hand side which can be used for parking on deck for F-35B's.

At the same time, the UK MOD announced the order of a 4th F-35B which will remain in the US as a test aircraft.

Can see the LRR sat on the flight deck too, that one will be on the aft island with ARTISAN on the fore island

Queen Elizabeth closes

Fort Victoria recently conducted a double RAS involving HMAS Melbourne & HNoMS Fridtjof Nansen off the coast of Somalia

Double Replenishment at Sea for Fort Victoria | Royal Navy

& the last Type 45 - HMS Duncan - has been testing her gunnery for the first time, her principle warfare officer being Lt T. Thompson of the RNZN.

HMS Defender will be heading on her maiden deployment sometime next year. Maybe to replace Dragon in the Gulf, Dragon's deployment was supposed to be 7 months & right now that's reaching into it's 8 month so chances are she'll be replaced by a frigate.

HMS Richmond (Type 23) will be heading back from the South Atlantic ~March 2014, so there's the potential there.

Duncan blazes fire and steel during destroyer's first gunnery shoot | Royal Navy

Side point, whilst supporting Cougar 13 and other deployments abroad the RN still managed to put 5 frigates to sea as part of the second Joint Warrior exercise of 2013.

HMS Daring en route to the Philippines to help provide aid (+ a C-17)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24906526

 

[RobWilliams]

HMS Illustrious is being sent to the Philippines to help with the aid effort going on there, no info yet about which ships are heading with her as it appears certain ships are now doing other things and it's unclear if they're "technically" still part of the task group.

But originally the TG included 1 x LPD, 2 x LSDs, 1 x AOR & 1 x SSS as well as an LPH, these would probably be the most effective for delivering aid.

BBC News - British carrier HMS Illustrious to aid typhoon victims

 

[harryriedl]

HMS Illustrious is being sent to the Philippines to help with the aid effort going on there, no info yet about which ships are heading with her as it appears certain ships are now doing other things and it's unclear if they're "technically" still part of the task group.

But originally the TG included 1 x LPD, 2 x LSDs, 1 x AOR & 1 x SSS as well as an LPH, these would probably be the most effective for delivering aid.

BBC News - British carrier HMS Illustrious to aid typhoon victims

should be very effective at just increasing helo activity along with the fresh water filtration seeing how effective George Washington has been(yes its a CVN but dose show the effectiveness)

 

[RobWilliams]

The figures for Daring were something like she could produce 100 tonnes of drinking water a day I think, plus her embarked Lynx & crew including medical personnel & electrical/mechanical engineers and what-not.

Could do some good, especially with more helicopters & landing craft.

EDIT: More details, Daring is due to be on station on Saturday (16/11) and Illustrious is due next Sunday (24/11), Illustrious will replace Daring.

Side point, Illustrious is carrying seven helicopters total.

Interesting point though, Daring was scheduled to have a 9 month deployment and she was deployed in late May so she's about 5 months in with 4 months to go. What's she going to be doing after she's relieved?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24940632

 

[harryriedl]

The figures for Daring were something like she could produce 100 tonnes of drinking water a day I think, plus her embarked Lynx & crew including medical personnel & electrical/mechanical engineers and what-not.

Could do some good, especially with more helicopters & landing craft.

EDIT: More details, Daring is due to be on station on Saturday (16/11) and Illustrious is due next Sunday (24/11), Illustrious will replace Daring.

Side point, Illustrious is carrying seven helicopters total.

Interesting point though, Daring was scheduled to have a 9 month deployment and she was deployed in late May so she's about 5 months in with 4 months to go. What's she going to be doing after she's relieved?

BBC News - British carrier HMS Illustrious to aid typhoon victims

possibly Japan it was meant to be a big round the world showing the flag job or possibly Korea as Aus has already been visited I think I imagine allies in the region was the plan

 

[RobWilliams]

I vaguely recall Japan being on the itinerary now you mention it, i'll look into it.

Anyway bit more info about Illustrious' air group, it consists of 3 Lynx, 1 Merlin & 3 Sea Kings (presumably ASaC).

Still shockingly small for a ship with something like ~20 capacity, but that's peacetime complements for you. At least the peacetime complement of QE will be better.

 

[StobieWan]

That's fairly generous - I think I saw Ocean in a documentary with 3 Merlins in total - and only one of those was flying, the other two were downed for maintenance.

Time will tell what QE gets for a wing I guess but hopefully with the economy looking better, the 2015 SDSR will be less depressing than the 2010 one.

 

[the concerned]

Can I ask what would it have took to convert old frigates like the type 22's into large patrol ships rather than design new ones.