Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

[ADMk2]

DSEi: BAe 146 offered as tactical air-to-air refueller

The UK have bought two BAE-146 aircraft to act as tactical transports in Afghanistan, they are likely to be removed after 2014. But this is an interesting proposal. BAE believes the setup could deliver fuel at speeds of 300 knots maximum, 7t of fuel regularly but up to 18t if external fuel tanks were added.

This sort of thing would be quite handy in the Falklands, our AAR force is getting smaller so keeping one down in the Falklands might not be the best solution, BAE believes it could fuel Typhoons, so would be an interesting solution. If fighters in the future needed to be tanked down in a rush (for whatever reason), deploy tankers with them. The current force should be sustainable with one of these craft AFAIK.

It require quite a bit of development to bring it into service and RAF only has 2 aircraft, an orphan fleet effectively...

I think the more flexible option would be to just introduce AAR kit onto the A400m in RAF service.

 

[swerve]

That's what I mean, to deploy an A400M AND an A330 seems like such an investment in the garrison which doesn't seem to justify it. Considering we're not getting the AAR gear for our A400M's, IMO it's the perfect solution than deploying a huge tanker.

In the event of any sort of material transport needed down there, we would set up the air bridge from Ascension. Would both those 146 (one AAR one regular) be fine d'you reckon?

I'd be keen on keeping that freighter in the UK and deploying it to the air bridge than sustaining it down there.

It depends on the cost of qualifying the BAe 146 for tanking. Note that it'd be no use for the Falklands air bridge: range is too short. It'd be limited to AAR, & local transport, assuming that it can use some of the other strips in the islands. Runway length should be OK, but I'm not sure about surface.

The only potential obstacle to getting AAR kit for A400M would apply equally (if at all) to this proposal, BTW: AirTanker.

 

[RobWilliams]

Just realised I worded it really poorly I wasn't proposing using it for the air bridge, I was proposing deploying the pair to support the Typhoon flight & garrison currently there. Keeping the A400M which would replace the Herc in the UK and using THAT to form an air bridge.

I don't know a lot about the AirTanker/PFI FUBAR, but there is a bit of a grey area about the exclusivity of the contract IIRC. Something like that.

 

[swerve]

I thought that was what you meant. Maybe I should have been clearer. I was just trying to make it clear what any BAe 146 down there could & could not do.

 

[ADMk2]

It depends on the cost of qualifying the BAe 146 for tanking. Note that it'd be no use for the Falklands air bridge: range is too short. It'd be limited to AAR, & local transport, assuming that it can use some of the other strips in the islands. Runway length should be OK, but I'm not sure about surface.

The only potential obstacle to getting AAR kit for A400M would apply equally (if at all) to this proposal, BTW: AirTanker.

Does Airtanker have total contractual responsibility for ALL AAR for the UK MoD though? Clearly they do for the A330 fleet but do we know if that would stop the MoD fitting refuelling capabilities to the A400m or even the C-130J fleet, if the MoD chose, especially given the arguable differences in role that an A330 based refueller and a tactical airlifter based refueller would have?

I'd be astonished if the contractual arrangements completely forbade the MoD to utilise other AAR services as necessary. Allied resources in particular I would suggest can still be accessed by RAF aircraft as needed.

I can see that contracting something like Omega might be more difficult however.

 

[RobWilliams]

Couple of older interesting tweets from Tony Osbourne (London Bureau Chief at Aviation Week) about tanker deployments on the Falklands.

He says that the formal retirement of our TriStars is March 2014 but there is an option of a 6 month extension, that following on from the retirement there will be a Voyager deployed to fill the role but there are alternatives being reviewed for tanker arrangements and that Voyager doesn't actually fit in the hangar facilities available on the islands.

Thought it was interesting, considering the BAE 146 tanker idea being thrown around recently.

 

[swerve]

Looked at JDW & Flight today, & this was mentioned, with the gross overkill of a Voyager for the job down there & the hangar issue, the possibility of negotiating with AirTanker for provision of alternative assets, & the usefulness of AAR kit for A400M & the BAe 146 tanker proposal.

 

[RobWilliams]

Sadly however according to Philip Dunne they've not assessed the 146 for tanker duties and they believe that Voyager will meet all of the UK's tanking requirements (apart from the bleedin' obvious that is)

UK says 'no thanks' to BAe 146 tanker

 

[swerve]

A couple of sets of AAR kit (the basic one) for A400M, an arrangement to use the Franco-German A400M training facilities for AAR training, & stationing one at MPA would seem to be the sensible, relatively cheap, thing to do. At least one AirTanker partner would be very keen on the idea (Cobham makes the A400M AAR kit, of course). There should be no contractual difficulties.

 

[ADMk2]

A couple of sets of AAR kit (the basic one) for A400M, an arrangement to use the Franco-German A400M training facilities for AAR training, & stationing one at MPA would seem to be the sensible, relatively cheap, thing to do. At least one AirTanker partner would be very keen on the idea (Cobham makes the A400M AAR kit, of course). There should be no contractual difficulties.

Which is why it probably won't happen. Far too logical and sensible. Projects are meant to be expensive, convoluted, delayed and ultimately fail to deliver all that is promised I believe...

 

[Volkodav]

Which is why it probably won't happen. Far too logical and sensible. Projects are meant to be expensive, convoluted, delayed and ultimately fail to deliver all that is promised I believe...

Maybe the MR4 airframes may be a better option? Any of the Nimrod AEWs still sitting around, or perhaps just use life extended Tornados as buddy tankers.

 

[RobWilliams]

IIRC all the MRA4 airframes got smashed up with a digger a while ago, got a good chunk of publicity too.

IMO the probably result will be Voyager deployment down South, A400M use for AAR has been discontinued in the past and now the 146 won't be used then the board is set

 

[StobieWan]

Yep, all the MR4 frames are kit kat wrappers and tinfoil. But lets not forget - the FSTA agreement is a ten year one - A400M will be just be working up to full operational capability by then. I think we'll see some HDU's on board in their lifetime

 

[Volkodav]

Sorry guys I was being sarcastic. I am aware the MR4s were scraped in the true British tradition of ensuring no one would ever be able to second guess them by making it physically impossible to reverse a decision to kill a project.

That said I am surprised no one has ever developed a tactical tanker, i.e. a small fast purpose designed airframe that could be used not only as a tanker, but also for the multitude of roles currently covered by converted small to medium civilian aircraft. A more survivable flexible type for use in higher threat environments.

 

[t68]

That said I am surprised no one has ever developed a tactical tanker, i.e. a small fast purpose designed airframe that could be used not only as a tanker, but also for the multitude of roles currently covered by converted small to medium civilian aircraft. A more survivable flexible type for use in higher threat environments.

That would be the KC130J or if a capability could be transplanted to the C27J that said do the RAF have a need for smaller tactical lift like C27J they have the BAE 146 which from memory some one built a demistrator for AAR &COD

The Boeing is investigating an AAR& COD version of the MV22 Osprey

 

[Volkodav]

That would be the KC130J or if a capability could be transplanted to the C27J that said do the RAF have a need for smaller tactical lift like C27J they have the BAE 146 which from memory some one built a demistrator for AAR &COD

The Boeing is investigating an AAR& COD version of the MV22 Osprey

I was actually thinking of a smallish (717 to 737 size) possibly LO jet to take on tactical tanking, ISR, MPA, maybe even stand off strike with ALCMs.

 

[simonov]

any tradition from RAF to give nicknames to their planes? like US ?

 

[RobWilliams]

You mean on an individual basis or the type of aircraft? Because if it's the latter, then yeah.

RAF will be retiring the last 7 of our C-130K's by the end of the month, pain in the ass considering that the Block 7 update isn't progressing particularly well and is probably going to be amalgamated into the Block 8.1 update meaning a longer gap for SF capability on our aircraft. SAS already aren't happy with using the A400M as it's too large for their needs.

UK Air Force Retire its C-130Ks | Defense News | defensenews.com

A Royal Air Force Hercules modified to trial the production version of the Block 7 avionics upgrade has been stuck for months on the apron at Lockheed Martin’s Marietta, Ga., plant modified but unable to fly because it awaited clearance from Britain’s Military Aviation Authority.

A Royal Air Force spokesman said it remains the strategy to “support the multinational block upgrade program in order to sustain our C-130J fleet to its out-of-service date.

“The UK has one C-130J, currently modified to Block 7 standard and located in the USA, where we expect it to commence flight trials soon in support of the multinational block upgrade program. We have no current plans to withdraw this resource,” the spokesman said.

EDIT: Next batch of UK Reapers close to being accepted into service within the next two months, they'll then be shipped off to Afghanistan

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uks-extra-reapers-near-acceptance-391772/

 

[RobWilliams]

Turns out BAE's Taranis has done its initial flight tests earlier this year (i.e Sept/early Oct) at the Woomera range in Southern Australia. They're not going to comment on the tests until they're completed.

Just to make sure, Taranis is a technology demonstrator which is meant to give the MOD experimental evidence from which it can base it's future plans for what mix of manned/unmanned aircraft will make up the RAF.

Unmanned Taranis has flown, MoD reveals

MOD buys more EO turrets from Selex ES to equip our entire Chinook fleet, this order is for 15 and we've made a previous order for 45.

Britain enhances situational awareness for CH-47 crews - UPI.com

RAF conducts its last C-130K operational sorties and the type will be retired fully next week

A Herculean finish for the C130K

Today, 25th October 2013, marked the final operation sortie for the remaining two C130K Hercules aircraft. The C130K variation of the Hercules has served the RAF since 1967, giving almost 50 years of sterling air support to the armed services.

...

The The C-130 Hercules tactical transport aircraft is the workhorse of the RAF’s Air Transport (AT) fleet and is based at RAF Brize Norton, in Oxfordshire , where it is operated by No’s 24, 30 and 47 Squadrons. The last two C130K aircraft have made their final operation sortie today and are to be retired next week.

Our airlift capability will now be done by our 8 C-17s and 24 C-130Js, the latter reducing to 22 A400Ms when the type is fully in service.

 

[RobWilliams]

MAA holding up delivery of first RC-135 which was declared ready for delivery 6 months ahead of schedule.

Rivet Joint Airworthiness Questioned by UK MAA | Aviation International News

In other news, plenty of Typhoon info coming out about the P1E. A program which the two test aircraft (IPA4 & 7) have just finished flight testing and will be available before the end of 2013 for customers.

According to Cassidian, the defence division of EADS, “P1E implements full Air-to-Surface capability on Eurofighter Typhoon – including Laser Designator Pod -, full smart bomb integration [Paveway IV + Enhanced Paveway II IIRC], modern secure Identification Friend or Foe (Mode 5), improved Radios and Direct Voice Input, Air-to-Surface Helmet Mounted Sight System, improved Air-to-Air capabilities including digital integration of Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles and updated MIDS (Multifunctional Information Distribution System) Datalink functionalities for enhanced interoperability with Coalition Forces.”

The article has a really nice photo of a bombed up Tiffy, armed with

• 2 x SRAAMs
• 4 x AMRAAM
• 1 x LDP
• 2 x 1000l fuel tanks
• 4 x Paveway IV

It was an aircraft with this software which designated and engaged two targets simultaneously with a pair of Paveway IV smart bombs.

Contracts for P2E have been signed with the hopes that P2E will be implemented before the end of 2014, with the first flights of a Typhoon (IPA5) with an AESA radar in early 2014. P2E including integration of critical RAF systems like Brimstone, Storm Shadow & Meteor (but also including Taurus, SDB & supersonic delivery of Paveway IV)

All Tranche 2 Typhoons will be retrofitted with P1E and all Tranche 2 & Tranche 3 will be fitted with P2E software in the future. Tranche 3 being the model with all the bells and whistles; set up to accept conformal fuel tanks & power/cooling previsions being made for an AESA radar, it's unclear (from what I know) what'll happen to the Tranche 2 aircraft. Most likely will be retrofitted with the kit.

As an aside, I generally try to get people to merge multiple posts into one single large post. But in this case, these are new developments & as such merging them into a post made days earlier wouldn't give it the attention it should get, being "news" and all.