Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

[ADMk2]

It depends on the cost of qualifying the BAe 146 for tanking. Note that it'd be no use for the Falklands air bridge: range is too short. It'd be limited to AAR, & local transport, assuming that it can use some of the other strips in the islands. Runway length should be OK, but I'm not sure about surface.

The only potential obstacle to getting AAR kit for A400M would apply equally (if at all) to this proposal, BTW: AirTanker.

Does Airtanker have total contractual responsibility for ALL AAR for the UK MoD though? Clearly they do for the A330 fleet but do we know if that would stop the MoD fitting refuelling capabilities to the A400m or even the C-130J fleet, if the MoD chose, especially given the arguable differences in role that an A330 based refueller and a tactical airlifter based refueller would have?

I'd be astonished if the contractual arrangements completely forbade the MoD to utilise other AAR services as necessary. Allied resources in particular I would suggest can still be accessed by RAF aircraft as needed.

I can see that contracting something like Omega might be more difficult however.

 

[RobWilliams]

Couple of older interesting tweets from Tony Osbourne (London Bureau Chief at Aviation Week) about tanker deployments on the Falklands.

He says that the formal retirement of our TriStars is March 2014 but there is an option of a 6 month extension, that following on from the retirement there will be a Voyager deployed to fill the role but there are alternatives being reviewed for tanker arrangements and that Voyager doesn't actually fit in the hangar facilities available on the islands.

Thought it was interesting, considering the BAE 146 tanker idea being thrown around recently.

 

[swerve]

Looked at JDW & Flight today, & this was mentioned, with the gross overkill of a Voyager for the job down there & the hangar issue, the possibility of negotiating with AirTanker for provision of alternative assets, & the usefulness of AAR kit for A400M & the BAe 146 tanker proposal.

 

[RobWilliams]

Sadly however according to Philip Dunne they've not assessed the 146 for tanker duties and they believe that Voyager will meet all of the UK's tanking requirements (apart from the bleedin' obvious that is)

UK says 'no thanks' to BAe 146 tanker

 

[swerve]

A couple of sets of AAR kit (the basic one) for A400M, an arrangement to use the Franco-German A400M training facilities for AAR training, & stationing one at MPA would seem to be the sensible, relatively cheap, thing to do. At least one AirTanker partner would be very keen on the idea (Cobham makes the A400M AAR kit, of course). There should be no contractual difficulties.

 

[ADMk2]

A couple of sets of AAR kit (the basic one) for A400M, an arrangement to use the Franco-German A400M training facilities for AAR training, & stationing one at MPA would seem to be the sensible, relatively cheap, thing to do. At least one AirTanker partner would be very keen on the idea (Cobham makes the A400M AAR kit, of course). There should be no contractual difficulties.

Which is why it probably won't happen. Far too logical and sensible. Projects are meant to be expensive, convoluted, delayed and ultimately fail to deliver all that is promised I believe...

 

[Volkodav]

Which is why it probably won't happen. Far too logical and sensible. Projects are meant to be expensive, convoluted, delayed and ultimately fail to deliver all that is promised I believe...

Maybe the MR4 airframes may be a better option? Any of the Nimrod AEWs still sitting around, or perhaps just use life extended Tornados as buddy tankers.

 

[RobWilliams]

IIRC all the MRA4 airframes got smashed up with a digger a while ago, got a good chunk of publicity too.

IMO the probably result will be Voyager deployment down South, A400M use for AAR has been discontinued in the past and now the 146 won't be used then the board is set

 

[StobieWan]

Yep, all the MR4 frames are kit kat wrappers and tinfoil. But lets not forget - the FSTA agreement is a ten year one - A400M will be just be working up to full operational capability by then. I think we'll see some HDU's on board in their lifetime

 

[Volkodav]

Sorry guys I was being sarcastic. I am aware the MR4s were scraped in the true British tradition of ensuring no one would ever be able to second guess them by making it physically impossible to reverse a decision to kill a project.

That said I am surprised no one has ever developed a tactical tanker, i.e. a small fast purpose designed airframe that could be used not only as a tanker, but also for the multitude of roles currently covered by converted small to medium civilian aircraft. A more survivable flexible type for use in higher threat environments.

 

[t68]

That said I am surprised no one has ever developed a tactical tanker, i.e. a small fast purpose designed airframe that could be used not only as a tanker, but also for the multitude of roles currently covered by converted small to medium civilian aircraft. A more survivable flexible type for use in higher threat environments.

That would be the KC130J or if a capability could be transplanted to the C27J that said do the RAF have a need for smaller tactical lift like C27J they have the BAE 146 which from memory some one built a demistrator for AAR &COD

The Boeing is investigating an AAR& COD version of the MV22 Osprey

 

[Volkodav]

That would be the KC130J or if a capability could be transplanted to the C27J that said do the RAF have a need for smaller tactical lift like C27J they have the BAE 146 which from memory some one built a demistrator for AAR &COD

The Boeing is investigating an AAR& COD version of the MV22 Osprey

I was actually thinking of a smallish (717 to 737 size) possibly LO jet to take on tactical tanking, ISR, MPA, maybe even stand off strike with ALCMs.

 

[simonov]

any tradition from RAF to give nicknames to their planes? like US ?

 

[RobWilliams]

You mean on an individual basis or the type of aircraft? Because if it's the latter, then yeah.

RAF will be retiring the last 7 of our C-130K's by the end of the month, pain in the ass considering that the Block 7 update isn't progressing particularly well and is probably going to be amalgamated into the Block 8.1 update meaning a longer gap for SF capability on our aircraft. SAS already aren't happy with using the A400M as it's too large for their needs.

UK Air Force Retire its C-130Ks | Defense News | defensenews.com

A Royal Air Force Hercules modified to trial the production version of the Block 7 avionics upgrade has been stuck for months on the apron at Lockheed Martin’s Marietta, Ga., plant modified but unable to fly because it awaited clearance from Britain’s Military Aviation Authority.

A Royal Air Force spokesman said it remains the strategy to “support the multinational block upgrade program in order to sustain our C-130J fleet to its out-of-service date.

“The UK has one C-130J, currently modified to Block 7 standard and located in the USA, where we expect it to commence flight trials soon in support of the multinational block upgrade program. We have no current plans to withdraw this resource,” the spokesman said.

EDIT: Next batch of UK Reapers close to being accepted into service within the next two months, they'll then be shipped off to Afghanistan

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uks-extra-reapers-near-acceptance-391772/

 

[RobWilliams]

Turns out BAE's Taranis has done its initial flight tests earlier this year (i.e Sept/early Oct) at the Woomera range in Southern Australia. They're not going to comment on the tests until they're completed.

Just to make sure, Taranis is a technology demonstrator which is meant to give the MOD experimental evidence from which it can base it's future plans for what mix of manned/unmanned aircraft will make up the RAF.

Unmanned Taranis has flown, MoD reveals

MOD buys more EO turrets from Selex ES to equip our entire Chinook fleet, this order is for 15 and we've made a previous order for 45.

Britain enhances situational awareness for CH-47 crews - UPI.com

RAF conducts its last C-130K operational sorties and the type will be retired fully next week

A Herculean finish for the C130K

Today, 25th October 2013, marked the final operation sortie for the remaining two C130K Hercules aircraft. The C130K variation of the Hercules has served the RAF since 1967, giving almost 50 years of sterling air support to the armed services.

...

The The C-130 Hercules tactical transport aircraft is the workhorse of the RAF’s Air Transport (AT) fleet and is based at RAF Brize Norton, in Oxfordshire , where it is operated by No’s 24, 30 and 47 Squadrons. The last two C130K aircraft have made their final operation sortie today and are to be retired next week.

Our airlift capability will now be done by our 8 C-17s and 24 C-130Js, the latter reducing to 22 A400Ms when the type is fully in service.

 

[RobWilliams]

MAA holding up delivery of first RC-135 which was declared ready for delivery 6 months ahead of schedule.

Rivet Joint Airworthiness Questioned by UK MAA | Aviation International News

In other news, plenty of Typhoon info coming out about the P1E. A program which the two test aircraft (IPA4 & 7) have just finished flight testing and will be available before the end of 2013 for customers.

According to Cassidian, the defence division of EADS, “P1E implements full Air-to-Surface capability on Eurofighter Typhoon – including Laser Designator Pod -, full smart bomb integration [Paveway IV + Enhanced Paveway II IIRC], modern secure Identification Friend or Foe (Mode 5), improved Radios and Direct Voice Input, Air-to-Surface Helmet Mounted Sight System, improved Air-to-Air capabilities including digital integration of Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles and updated MIDS (Multifunctional Information Distribution System) Datalink functionalities for enhanced interoperability with Coalition Forces.”

The article has a really nice photo of a bombed up Tiffy, armed with

• 2 x SRAAMs
• 4 x AMRAAM
• 1 x LDP
• 2 x 1000l fuel tanks
• 4 x Paveway IV

It was an aircraft with this software which designated and engaged two targets simultaneously with a pair of Paveway IV smart bombs.

Contracts for P2E have been signed with the hopes that P2E will be implemented before the end of 2014, with the first flights of a Typhoon (IPA5) with an AESA radar in early 2014. P2E including integration of critical RAF systems like Brimstone, Storm Shadow & Meteor (but also including Taurus, SDB & supersonic delivery of Paveway IV)

All Tranche 2 Typhoons will be retrofitted with P1E and all Tranche 2 & Tranche 3 will be fitted with P2E software in the future. Tranche 3 being the model with all the bells and whistles; set up to accept conformal fuel tanks & power/cooling previsions being made for an AESA radar, it's unclear (from what I know) what'll happen to the Tranche 2 aircraft. Most likely will be retrofitted with the kit.

As an aside, I generally try to get people to merge multiple posts into one single large post. But in this case, these are new developments & as such merging them into a post made days earlier wouldn't give it the attention it should get, being "news" and all.

 

[RobWilliams]

First UK RC-135 arrives at RAF Waddington

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-uk?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

The aircraft will form part of project Airseeker, which will provide the UK with a world class capability able to provide real-time on-scene intelligence, surveillance and analysis for forces in the air and on the ground.

The Boeing RC-135V/W Rivet Joint system has a proven track record, having been used by the United States Air Force (USAF) for many years. Since 2011, the RAF’s 51 Squadron have been training and operating alongside their USAF colleagues in preparation for the UK aircraft entering service in late 2014.

UK crews have already achieved in excess of 32,000 flying hours and 1,800 sorties as part of the US 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing.

MOD has purchased 3 aircraft from the US which will each be configured to support UK operations. The first aircraft has successfully completed its flight trials in Greenville, Texas, ahead of schedule, allowing it to be delivered to the UK early.

Good job, it'd be quite nice to have the trio all delivered ahead of schedule and this expedite the types ISD into service before mid-2017.

All we need is other important areas of our ISTAR capability to be secured in 2015 and we'll be golden.

 

[RobWilliams]

UK Shows Interest in Buying Another C-17 | Defense News | defensenews.com

DUBAI — Britain has added its name to the list of countries vying to get their hands on the last of the Boeing C-17 Globemaster IIIs being produced in Long Beach, Calif., ahead of its closure, according to Defence Ministry sources.

The case for buying what would be the Royal Air Force’s ninth C-17 are set to be discussed by UK defense acquisition approval chiefs in the next few days, they said.

Interesting development, the desire for C-17 #9 has been there for a while but the assumption was that what with Afghanistan drawing down and with it the required C-17 air bridge to help sustain it, we wouldn't particularly have the need for more aircraft like the C-17.

Still, it would be quite nice. Recently with Mali and the Philippines we've seen that these sorts of aircraft can be quite flexible.

 

[RobWilliams]

The Typhoon has flown with a pair of Storm Shadow cruise missiles in the last few days (airframe IPA2) in tests conducted by Alenia Aermacchi in Italy. ISD is 2015, the sooner we get this & Brimstone on Typhoon then the loss of Tornado won't be as bad. As much as the F-35 will still be our 'bomb truck', out of the door it'll be severely lacking in capability.

The weapons use two hardpoints which are compatible with external fuel tanks, meaning that there's only the centreline hardpoint for an external tank if loaded with 2 missiles, so true strike range is nullified due to lacking 2/3 of the external fuel capacity however this in turn can be counted by the adoption of conformal fuel tanks and the standoff nature of the weapon itself.

Eurofighter flies with Storm Shadow missiles

 

[StobieWan]

UK Shows Interest in Buying Another C-17 | Defense News | defensenews.com





Interesting development, the desire for C-17 #9 has been there for a while but the assumption was that what with Afghanistan drawing down and with it the required C-17 air bridge to help sustain it, we wouldn't particularly have the need for more aircraft like the C-17.

Still, it would be quite nice. Recently with Mali and the Philippines we've seen that these sorts of aircraft can be quite flexible.

If we can nab one, there'll never ever be a moment we'll say "God damn, I wish we didn't have so much strat lift..it sucks" I'm sure.

Unless you're USAF, where they're trying to *stop* buying or maintaining some strategic lifters because they're just a drain on resources. I think they're literally towing some C5's around to make sure their tyres don't get flat edges and the undercart doesn't seize.