Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The colours designed to blend in northern Australia. Which will really help us when we go to war everywhere else.
It doesn't really matter what the colours were designed for - they work. The different patterns were tested in every environment imaginable (jungle, rocky desert, sandy desert, savannah, urban, mixed urban, good old Aussie bush, night) and the selected pattern proved the best. DPCU proved best for darker environments and Multicam the best for lighter environments, with the hybrid the best compromise.

I think it also helps that it more distinctly Australian than Multicam
 

Goknub

Active Member
Good to hear it will be a unique identifiable design, being able to determine who is from which Coalition country can get annoying when everyone is wearing similar gear.

I was worried the new cams may have been cut due to budget issues and the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Any word on who gets it first?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Good to hear it will be a unique identifiable design, being able to determine who is from which Coalition country can get annoying when everyone is wearing similar gear.

I was worried the new cams may have been cut due to budget issues and the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Any word on who gets it first?
Technically a decision to buy new cams hasn't been made, but only a decision on what the new camouflage pattern will be. The first piece of uniform to be in the new pattern will be a new combat jacket which will start being issued next winter (another piece of clothing which is ten years overdue).
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Why would RAAF and navy need grey or blue cams?
Navy have the reflectivè arm bands, and what will RAAF be hiding from in blue?
Surly the $ would be better spent on BBQ,s. For the air force and antifoul for the navy.
Does army really NEED to change from auscam?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Why would RAAF and navy need grey or blue cams?
Navy have the reflectivè arm bands, and what will RAAF be hiding from in blue?
Surly the $ would be better spent on BBQ,s. For the air force and antifoul for the navy.
Does army really NEED to change from auscam?
The answer believe it or not is it can be a cost saving. A disruptive pattern uniform looks good for longer with a single stain unlikely to force its wearer to replace it as it will potentially blend in with the pattern. With solid colour uniforms or work fatigues wear and tear shows sooner leading to more frequent replacement, the other factor is it was often necessary to provide overalls or similar as part of the standard issue to protect the uniforms during maintenance operations.

To be honest when I first saw photos of the RAN DP rig I thought it looked a little gay but now I have changed my opinion and envy those who get to wear it as it is better looking, more comfortable, more versatile and looks more professional than the corporate stuff I need to wear.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
I went in search of the new DCPU, did not come up with anything for Army but a possible RAAF uniform.

An RAAF Variant of AMP? - Soldier Systems

Didn’t Kylie Minogue wear this in that movie with van-dame?
Over here in NZ there is talk of RNZAF going to their own DPM replacement uniform although plain dark blue not camo pattern, just similar cut and functionality. I suppose it reflects the nature of work and operating enviroments plus has the added benefit of instant identification as opposed to everyones army to average joe public.

The new NZDF MCU is pretty expensive and chances are most air force and navy(they already have a darker blue/black GP uniform) will not require it unless directly attached or on a land op and therefore will just get it issued at the time if needed, no real requirement in and around NZ for the cost.

I actually preferred our old pattern and colour(s) however everyone seems to be on this multi craze unform bandwagon at the moment.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Why would RAAF and navy need grey or blue cams?
Navy have the reflectivè arm bands,
I agree and have to ask, what happened to engineers wearing overalls, or have we reached the stage where engineering billets don't tough anything dirty anymore?:confused:
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The point I am trying to make about blue/grey cams.
Are the navy lads trying to camoflague them selves against pesky zeros conducting staffing runs, targeting sailors on deck, there fore, the cams make the sailors a harder target, and the air force boys in blue cams, trying to hide from similar pesky zeros, by painting all the structure and folige around the air base blue?

Surely, if cams are required by these services, then a proper set set shoûd be issued. If they want to look differènt from army, then use a different pattern, but not blue or grey. Îts stupid, serves n purpose but to look urban trendy.just add base ball cap worn side ways and a pair of white basket ball boots.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The point I am trying to make about blue/grey cams.
Are the navy lads trying to camoflague them selves against pesky zeros conducting staffing runs, targeting sailors on deck, there fore, the cams make the sailors a harder target, and the air force boys in blue cams, trying to hide from similar pesky zeros, by painting all the structure and folige around the air base blue?

Surely, if cams are required by these services, then a proper set set shoûd be issued. If they want to look differènt from army, then use a different pattern, but not blue or grey. Îts stupid, serves n purpose but to look urban trendy.just add base ball cap worn side ways and a pair of white basket ball boots.
It does serve a purpose, just not an operational purpose. It's all about "branding". Grey cams clearly identifies Navy and presumably Blue cams will achieve the same thing for Air Force.

They seem to think these cams are good for recruiting purposes and as they are sufficiently fit for purpose work clothes for the environment they operating in, does it really matter the colour they wear?

When you work in an environment that requires high-viz vests or strips to be worn, there's not much point in wearing ANY camouflage uniforms in reality.

Those who go into the bush (even those from Navy or Air Force) will still wear proper cams.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The answer believe it or not is it can be a cost saving. A disruptive pattern uniform looks good for longer with a single stain unlikely to force its wearer to replace it as it will potentially blend in with the pattern. With solid colour uniforms or work fatigues wear and tear shows sooner leading to more frequent replacement, the other factor is it was often necessary to provide overalls or similar as part of the standard issue to protect the uniforms during maintenance operations.

To be honest when I first saw photos of the RAN DP rig I thought it looked a little gay but now I have changed my opinion and envy those who get to wear it as it is better looking, more comfortable, more versatile and looks more professional than the corporate stuff I need to wear.
Except they also got rid of coveralls for the engineers and the cam does not last longer in the E/R. Add to that there is a view that the one piece option is generally better for protecting against ship board fire and blast than the top and trousers and jacket.


Still seems pointless to me.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Based on some conversations I've overheard, I wouldn't be surprised if the Abbot government ressurrects the SPG soon after taking office, with an off the shelf buy from the US.
If funding for a SPH is made available why not use it instead for an equivalent HIMARS purchase (i.e. If the plan is to buy 18-24 SPHs, buy 18-24 HIMARS).
There are now an adequate number of 155mm guns with the extra 19 M777s purchased and with Excalibur, PGKs etc the Army has an excellent tube Artillery capability. Buying extra 155mm SPHs doesn't provide any great improvement in indirect fire support. A HIMARS buy, on the other hand, will provide an all new capability to the Army and may be a better use of the money.

The argument can be fairly made that towed Artillery is much slower into and out of action than a SPH. If speed is considered a vital characteristic what about this as an idea. Take some of the new 6X6 MAN trucks which would have been used as gun tractors and mount M777s directly on them in the same set up as the French Caeser.
It would be a fairly simple mechanical engineering task. No need for any new fire control system, no need to introduce a new calibre to the Army as the guns would be operated just as they are in the towed version.
This could provide a Pseudo SPH.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If funding for a SPH is made available why not use it instead for an equivalent HIMARS purchase (i.e. If the plan is to buy 18-24 SPHs, buy 18-24 HIMARS).
There are now an adequate number of 155mm guns with the extra 19 M777s purchased and with Excalibur, PGKs etc the Army has an excellent tube Artillery capability. Buying extra 155mm SPHs doesn't provide any great improvement in indirect fire support. A HIMARS buy, on the other hand, will provide an all new capability to the Army and may be a better use of the money.
Who would you man the HIMARs with? There aren't enough soldiers to man the current guns, let alone introducing another regiments worth of capability. You couldn't just replace a battery of M777s with a battery of HIMARs in each regiment either, as they would need completely separate support chains, which costs even more soldiers.

The argument can be fairly made that towed Artillery is much slower into and out of action than a SPH. If speed is considered a vital characteristic what about this as an idea. Take some of the new 6X6 MAN trucks which would have been used as gun tractors and mount M777s directly on them in the same set up as the French Caeser.
It would be a fairly simple mechanical engineering task. No need for any new fire control system, no need to introduce a new calibre to the Army as the guns would be operated just as they are in the towed version.
This could provide a Pseudo SPH.
The original SPG buy died because of Australia trying to buy a bespoke capability as opposed to buying off the shelf. Why do it again? It's just not smart.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Was the whisper about the resurrected SPG capability a new Regiment, or replacing an existing (and brand new M777A2 guns) Regiment?

If it's replacing an existing Regiment, how does this fit in with the Beersheba model?

If a new Regiment, surely such would be relatively similar manning-wise whether equipped with SPG's or HIMARS?
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Was the whisper about the resurrected SPG capability a new Regiment, or replacing an existing (and brand new M777A2 guns) Regiment?

If it's replacing an existing Regiment, how does this fit in with the Beersheba model?

If a new Regiment, surely such would be relatively similar manning-wise whether equipped with SPG's or HIMARS?
Any new SPH buy would simply follow the original plan - one SPH troop in each regiment. It would mean we had more M777s than we needed, but I doubt anyone would complain about that. It would be relatively manning neutral as the gun detachment for an SPH is less than that of an M777, with the delta being made up by the necessary increase in spanners etc to maintain a different platform.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
This could provide a Pseudo SPH.
A gun on a truck is not a pseudo SPH. And if you wanted a M777 gun on a truck there is a legacy solution with the British Supacat truck using a portee arrangement (LIMAWSG). It achieves every performance aim of Caesar type systems without the need to mechanically alter the M777.

But guns on trucks are nothing like SPHs. They are the same type of capability as a towed gun on a smaller footprint. Which is important for air and sea transport. Rather than consume truck lane meters they consume unoccupied airspace above the truck in order to garage an artillery gun. Which is great for air and sea movements.

But a SPH provides an artillery system that is under armour, as mobile as an A vehicle (ie a tank) and carries with it a self-contained unit of fire which it is able to shoot very quickly. It provides the artillery capability the ability to sustain fires in the face of insurgency level counter battery efforts and provide very dense levels of offensive support able to destroy significant enemy forces.

HIMARS/MLRS rocket systems provide a different type of artillery capability and while they can theoretically replicate the fires provided by 155mm guns it is very expensive to do so. MLRS/GMLRS munitions are ideal for deep strikes to destroy key enemy systems like air defence and their artillery capability or to break up formations advancing to the battlefield. They are used more like a strike aircraft flying battlefield air interdiction than a traditional artillery gun.

While it would be nice to have an MLRS regiment and appropriate force level OP battery in the Australian Army it’s a capability like high altitude air defence or rapid wide river crossing that is really needed if you have a high intensity level field army. That is an army with a mechanised/armoured division or two capable of fighting a big battle against a peer.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
From what I read of the opposition's policy, Korean SPH's x 18 will be back on the procurement list. Apparently the South Korean ambassador was "disappointed" at the contract cancellation.
Is this the most desired outcome?
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
From what I read of the opposition's policy, Korean SPH's x 18 will be back on the procurement list. Apparently the South Korean ambassador was "disappointed" at the contract cancellation.
The Koreans have been pushing defence sales to Australia on a G to G level for some time. They see it as a means to alleviate their strong balance of payments deficit to Australia. Also winning a major Australian contract would be an important milestone towards being a first rank international arms supplier. And the Korean gear can be very good.

Is this the most desired outcome?
If the AS9 works and is integrated into AFATDS it would pretty much be an ideal solution. But I doubt it’s worth the $250-500 million for 20 guns when you can get the M109A7 for about 1/10 of the price. The only significant difference is +25% in range, better roof armour and minus 1-2 crew per gun.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From what I read of the opposition's policy, Korean SPH's x 18 will be back on the procurement list. Apparently the South Korean ambassador was "disappointed" at the contract cancellation.
Is this the most desired outcome?
No. The problems that caused the project to drag on interminably are still there.

We'd be much better off with refurb'd (ala M1A1 AIM tanks) M109A6 SP guns and learn to live within our means and use extant 39Cal guns.

If we need greater artillery range and strike capability, as Abe pointed out MLRS / HIMARS remains a possibility down the track.

As we are about the only nation in SEA without an MLRS like capability, I'd be surprised if we don't end up with it one day.

However in the short term I'd be quite happy with an artillery capability based on M777A2 and refurb'd M109A6 guns, firing Excalibur, SMART 155 and the new course corrected fuses capability, networked together with AFATDS for precision fires.

Now if only Army could acquire a 120mm mortar system as it's replacement mortar and acquire a PGM mortar capability, I think we'd be doing quite nicely, fire support-wise...
 

Haavarla

Active Member
No. The problems that caused the project to drag on interminably are still there.

We'd be much better off with refurb'd (ala M1A1 AIM tanks) M109A6 SP guns and learn to live within our means and use extant 39Cal guns.

If we need greater artillery range and strike capability, as Abe pointed out MLRS / HIMARS remains a possibility down the track.

As we are about the only nation in SEA without an MLRS like capability, I'd be surprised if we don't end up with it one day.

However in the short term I'd be quite happy with an artillery capability based on M777A2 and refurb'd M109A6 guns, firing Excalibur, SMART 155 and the new course corrected fuses capability, networked together with AFATDS for precision fires.

Now if only Army could acquire a 120mm mortar system as it's replacement mortar and acquire a PGM mortar capability, I think we'd be doing quite nicely, fire support-wise...
Having read about the logistic problems on Main Battle tanks in general and some vauge reports on the M1A operated in Australia and Centurien in Vietnam etc.

Is there any easy Source or figures on the fuel consumption on M1A, Leopards etc?

Which engine does the Leo II operate these days?
In my work, i operate MAN engine, which is pretty Close to Benz used in Leopard II.
One would think they operate the newer "common rail" Engine Versions by now?
 
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