Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Panzer_Leader

New Member
Hi Guys

Good discussion of Plan BEERSHEBA and the new Armoured Cavalry Regiments (ACR) here, a development I've been following with interest for a while (mainly through Army magazine and other Defence sources). One question for those who may know, does the TO&E of the new ACR include any indirect fire assets, such as mortars (presumably in mortar carriers)?

Thanks in advance.
 
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hairyman

Active Member
Pardon my ignorance, but being 155mm calibre, are all 4002 of them destined for the Army, or will the Navy get some of them?
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Pardon my ignorance, but being 155mm calibre, are all 4002 of them destined for the Army, or will the Navy get some of them?
Navy doesn't currently use 155mm calibres. Her guns are 127mm (5inch) jobbies...

Raytheon are however building a 127mm variant of the Excalibur Precision Guided Munition for use with just these guns as well as existing racking arrangements for ships magazines etc without modification, so I expect we'll see RAN order these as soon as it possibly can.

Raytheon Company : Investor Relations : News Release

Apparently the Excalibur munition fits into a 127mm cartridge perfectly fine, however I expect such a munition would require integration into the Ship's combat system and probably the addition of extra targetting capability such as AFATDS etc.

Raytheon Company: Advanced Field Artillery Tactical Data System (AFATDS)
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Re the targeting of these (possible) naval rounds; can CEC be used for info or is it confined to AAW?
Excuse my ignorance.

Sorry Mods, this should be in the RAN thread.
 

Panzer_Leader

New Member
Interesting.

I understand from the March 2013 edition of 'Australian and NZ Defender' we have already acquired the German SMArt 155 round which contains two autonomous, parachute-deployed top-attack sub-munitions for engaging armour. It looks like the artillery are receiving some impressive precision fire capabilities.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting.

I understand from the March 2013 edition of 'Australian and NZ Defender' we have already acquired the German SMArt 155 round which contains two autonomous, parachute-deployed top-attack sub-munitions for engaging armour. It looks like the artillery are receiving some impressive precision fire capabilities.
Yes. We have ordered and received SMART 155, Excalibur PGM's, the new course corrected fuses, new ammunition, new M777A2 guns and AFATDS digital Command and Control systems, to completely overhaul our artillery capability.
 

Panzer_Leader

New Member
Yes. We have ordered and received SMART 155, Excalibur PGM's, the new course corrected fuses, new ammunition, new M777A2 guns and AFATDS digital Command and Control systems, to completely overhaul our artillery capability.
With that range of capabilities it looks like Army will be less dependent on fires from other sources, such as Air Force, which I'm sure is a good thing.

With the new ACRs, I wonder if self-propelled artillery will ever make it back into the acquisition pipeline or whether the Army sees that capability requirement as dead and buried now (I believe the requirement must still exist, just not the funding)?

Also, what's the latest on the AGL acquisition under LAND 40? I can't believe the US, UK, NZ and even CA (whose defence procurement seems almost as dysfunctional as our own) can all field this essential capability but we're unable to... it's more than a little depressing.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With the new ACRs, I wonder if self-propelled artillery will ever make it back into the acquisition pipeline or whether the Army sees that capability requirement as dead and buried now (I believe the requirement must still exist, just not the funding)?
Based on some conversations I've overheard, I wouldn't be surprised if the Abbot government ressurrects the SPG soon after taking office, with an off the shelf buy from the US.

Also, what's the latest on the AGL acquisition under LAND 40? I can't believe the US, UK, NZ and even CA (whose defence procurement seems almost as dysfunctional as our own) can all field this essential capability but we're unable to... it's more than a little depressing.
The push for new AGLs has slowed down, due to more buys of Mk-19 and the infantry no longer really pushing the capability (AGLs and their ammo are really heavy, who knew?). Funnily enough, the greatest push for AGLs is now coming from the artillery. Due to the demise of the SPG, they have successfully lobbied that their towed gun lines need for more protection, which includes AGLs. Expect a buy of the off the shelf AGLs and sights whenever the money is available.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The push for new AGLs has slowed down, due to more buys of Mk-19 and the infantry no longer really pushing the capability (AGLs and their ammo are really heavy, who knew?).
Years ago back when Infantry 2012 was some far off magical date in the future and the proposal first came out for a four men team to operate a 40mm AGL as part of an infantry platoon I crunched some numbers and wrote a little piece about how you could just equip that four man team with two 40mm MGL grenade launchers and achieve much the same fire on target for far less weight to carry around. And you would just use them similar to two man 66 volleys rather than have to be pegged to a tripod emplacement and ATV.

Here is the old tab data I did on comparing the lightest 40mm AGL with the MGL option:

[ame]http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/abegubler/inf_pltn_40mm.png[/ame]

And some old text:

40mm AGLs: Are way too heavy to be practically deployed within an infantry platoon. They can only fire from a tripod so are effectively fixed and exposed to enemy fires when deployed. This may be OK for a battalion level supporting DFSW platoon but these weapons will have to stay with the infantry platoon which means they remain close to the enemy. So why not replace the infantry platoon AGL with a more portable 40mm rapid fire system? The Milkor MGL XRGL40 is the latest version of the six round revolver 40mm grenade launcher. It can fire a new round called 40x51mm (it can still fire the legacy M203 compatible 40x46mm) with only half the muzzle velocity of the AGL’s 40x56mm (and two thirds more than the 40x46mm). Firing these grenades the maximum effective range against a point target is 800m. Combined with a digital fire control system sight like the Vinhog Vingsight the MGL should be just as accurate as the AGL out to this range. This sight as even more optical magnification than the Mk 47’s PWG-1 sight plus a laser rangefinder and computer controlled aiming point adjustment. The key thing is the MGL (with a Vingsight) weighs only 8kg. Which means for the same weight as one Mk 47 AGL and 32 rounds you can carry two MGLs and 184 rounds (see attached table for a full comparison). Since it is fired from the shoulder it is far more practical within the platoon.

HE, SMK and ILLUM: For targets beyond the effective range of the 40mm and firing smoke, illumination and target marking for close air support the best weapon is the 60mm commando mortar. This can replace the 84mm Carl Gustav that is only barely suited to firing high angle fires (like illumination) and has a very limited rate of fire and man portable unit of fire. It also has a huge firing signature and requires two men to operate. The 60mm commando mortar only weighs 7kg and requires no costly sighting units and fire control system for accurate fires. Each mortar bomb weighs under 2kg and is quite compact. Each soldier in the platoon can carry one (or two) attached to their day pack giving a 40 round unit of fire for each mortar. Each HE bomb has 300g of explosives and up to 600 fragments and their plunging fire they are far more lethal than even bursts of 40mm grenades or the direct and grazing fire of 84mm HE rounds. With a rate of fire of 12 rpm they are highly effective for laying down smoke.

66 LAW: Replacing the 84mm Carl Gustav with a 60mm commando mortar means the platoon will be deficient in direct fires for engaging firing positions with overhead protection and vehicles. However this task can be carried out by the 66mm M72 LAW. Without the need to carry the heavy Carl Gustav, its sighting system and ammunition additional 66s can be issued to the platoon. Fired two by two at each target the 66 is very effective and very light weight (compared to the 84).
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In other random news, the chief has signed off on the new camouflage pattern for Army. Surprisingly, it isn't the Australianised Multicam that is being used in Afghanistan. Its actually a new variant of multicam developed by DSTO. Basically, it is the Multicam pattern with DPCU colours. This combination proved better than both Australian Multicam and DPCU in testing. To be rolled out starting next year.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In other random news, the chief has signed off on the new camouflage pattern for Army. Surprisingly, it isn't the Australianised Multicam that is being used in Afghanistan. Its actually a new variant of multicum developed by DSTO. Basically, it is the Multicam pattern with DPCU colours. This combination proved better than both Australian Multicam and DPCU in testing. To be rolled out starting next year.
Woo hoo, if its sexy enough I may need to rejoin.
I wonder if they will do a navy version in 50 shades of grey?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Woo hoo, if its sexy enough I may need to rejoin.
I wonder if they will do a navy version in 50 shades of grey?
Still can't beat plastic sandals and blue shorts. I had sun dots on the top of my feet for 15 years.:)
 

t68

Well-Known Member
With the recent announcement that MAN truck with be providing the ADF with protected and unprotected trucks, does that mean that the Thales built Bushmaster or specifically the bushmaster ute (Copperhead) will not be built or the proposed 6x6 variant?
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
With the recent announcement that MAN truck with be providing the ADF with protected and unprotected trucks, does that mean that the Thales built Bushmaster or specifically the bushmaster ute (Copperhead) will not be built or the proposed 6x6 variant?
Its not that recent. They just signed the contract after some time working out the details. The MAN trucks beat the Bushmaster ute for the mediumweight protected mobility variant. There is still scope for the dual cab Bushmaster ute to be selected as this requirement comes in under a different project phase and weight class.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hope it's not a pixelated, digital pattern.

Nothing in nature is straight.
There are plenty of straight things in nature. But the point of pixilation is not looking the same as nature in a side by side photo but fooling the human eye at combat ranges. It turns out pixelated patterns blend easier at distance than non-pixelated patterns. Multi-cam however uses a different approach of macro and minor patterns. It would probably work better pixelated but it’s still better how it is than single layer pattern camos.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
In other random news, the chief has signed off on the new camouflage pattern for Army. Surprisingly, it isn't the Australianised Multicam that is being used in Afghanistan. Its actually a new variant of multicam developed by DSTO. Basically, it is the Multicam pattern with DPCU colours. This combination proved better than both Australian Multicam and DPCU in testing. To be rolled out starting next year.
The colours designed to blend in northern Australia. Which will really help us when we go to war everywhere else.
 
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