Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ngatimozart]

The C130J - 30 doesn't give us the same strategic airlift capabilities as the A400M so three or four A400Ms would be of greater utility. It also doesn't have the built in plumbing, pumps and wiring for AAR that the A400M comes with as standard. Whilst some would not see that as something NZ needs it does offer a capability for the ADF & others and unlike the KC30 it can fl slow enough to refuel helos as well as afst enough for fast jets. I would then think maybe we look at AAR capability for NH90s and the P8s will likely come with it.

The C295 is claimed by Airbus Military to be cheaper to purchase and operate than the C27J, but it cannot take full height 463l pallets or as many of them like the C27J, because it is narrower and lower in the fuselage so the pallets have to be stowed length ways. The only reason I used the C295 was that it was handy and since Alenia are building a MC gunship & EC 'Jedi' (similar to USAF EC130H) variants of the C27J then a MPA variant could also be on the cards. ADMK2 has a good suggestion of a pod(s) for MPA tasking. I think if we wanted to go down that track, the aircraft could be fitted with hard points and wired for AsuW & ASW weapons such as the Penguin, Maverick, depth charges and Mk82 bombs. I think in the long term it would be a backup for the P3K2 & P8s especially with the SSK, SSN, SSG, SSBN population "explosion" in Asia. Fitted for but not necessarilly with at manufacture. I now think the C27J would be the better buy for NZ because it will offer greater lifting capability and range than the C295. With regard to the USAF and the C27J I am strongly of the opinion that it is purely political on the part of the USAF.

The C27J has a greater payload than the Andover did. It's payload was around that of the C295, and the Andover hasn't yet been replaced. Mr C points to a gap between the capabilty of the A400M and the C295 / C27J. There are taskings that the C130H(NZ)s do that by rights would have been done by the Andover or its replacement. Whilst the Andover hasn't been replaced those taskings it would have received have either passed onto the Hercs, put into the too hard basket or just not generated because of nil capability. This has increased the flying time of the Hercs and at wrong end of the scale, we may end up with a situation like the Seasprites where the aircraft are worked to the death. That is a false economy and very short sighted. We can't do that with the A400m and it wouldn't be wise to do so if we replace the C130H(NZ)s with C130Js or J-30s. But IMHO the A400M ticks more NZDF boxes than the C130J / J30 does. We ran the C130H and the Andover together and we won't get a one for one Andover replacement but five C27Js would be good.

So my pick would be 4 x A400M (plus 1 x airframe as CKD spares), 5 x C27J fitted for but not with ASW & AsuW sensors and weapons, 4 x P8, and 6 or 7 x B350MPA. I still strongly believe the necessity of 3 x A321-200 MMRT to replace the B757s.

 

[KiwiRob]

With a few nations trying to offload a few A400s from their inventory already most would see this as an oppourtunity to secure a deal at a favourable price, beats negotiating for aircraft on the end of the line. If it means we bring forward our plans/decisions to replace the transport fleet then so be it, win win as far as I see dependant on your usual teething problems of course.

I'm not sure how you can categorise 1 as a few, it's only the Germans who are planning on selling some, the rest aren't.

 

[MrConservative]

I'm not sure how you can categorise 1 as a few, it's only the Germans who are planning on selling some, the rest aren't.

Spains order of 27 airframes in particular is likely to come under some pressure. Though the Spanish government in 2010 said it will "in principle" find the funds (borrowed no doubt) to fufill its order, it has been reluctant to confirm that it will eventually operate all 27.

 

[KiwiRob]

Thus leased civil registered, painted grey with Govt of NZ on the side, recent A320 viz 737 can do everything that the 23 year Broomsticks do viz required capability tasks other than palletised freight on a far better cost benefit basis for the NZ Govt.

Except range, the 757 has significantly more range than any 737, A32X derivative, there is no current narrow-body airliner from either Boeing or Airbus that matches the specs of a 757-200.

 

[KiwiRob]

Spains order of 27 airframes in particular is likely to come under some pressure. Though the Spanish government in 2010 said it will "in principle" find the funds (borrowed no doubt) to fufill its order, it has been reluctant to confirm that it will eventually operate all 27.

They are being built in Spain so any cuts to the Spanish fleet will probably result in a bunch of highly paid Spanish workers losing their jobs, it wouldn't be a good look for the Spanish govt. I believe there won't be any further cuts in procurement from the Euro govts, the penalties they will have to pay are large enough to make it not worth it.

 

[Lucasnz]

From an historical perspective the RNZAF was originally going to be C-130's for both the MPA and Transport role, but that changed to 5 C130 and 5P3. I can't remember exactly why it changed.

While current operations have required a greater need for strategic lift I'm not convinced that NZ needs the lift capability of the C17/A400. The current arrangement of leasing large strategic airlift or acquiring it from an ally seems more cost effective, though the down side is the potential lag in deployment. Don't get me started on the B757. If the majority of the C130 tasking capability used is at the low of its capability (in terms of tonnage / personnel movement) then a C17/A400 is even less viable . In addition a significant portion, but as Afghanistan and the LAVs showed not all, of the strategic lift can supplied by Canterbury.

In reading the discussion there appeared to be no direct correlation between the lift capability the RNZAF requires to support the JATF. That said the A400 does have some advantages (cost isn't one of them) in terms of capability with regards to providing an AAR / Electronic surveillance capability.

I'm not entirely convinced 4P8 and 4C295 would work in supporting the JATF. I do think 5 is the min number for P8. That said wasn't that combination originally quoted with UAV's in the mix. Sorry if I rehashed some debates, but I don't get the time follow the discussions like I use to.

 

[MrConservative]

They are being built in Spain so any cuts to the Spanish fleet will probably result in a bunch of highly paid Spanish workers losing their jobs, it wouldn't be a good look for the Spanish govt. I believe there won't be any further cuts in procurement from the Euro govts, the penalties they will have to pay are large enough to make it not worth it.

They wont cut the production for that very reason local jobs, however there is the possibility that some may come available for sale like the Germans. When the order was originally made the Spanish were actively increasing their military capability, now the opposite is happening.

 

[ngatimozart]

They are being built in Spain so any cuts to the Spanish fleet will probably result in a bunch of highly paid Spanish workers losing their jobs, it wouldn't be a good look for the Spanish govt. I believe there won't be any further cuts in procurement from the Euro govts, the penalties they will have to pay are large enough to make it not worth it.

The South Africans cut their orders completely but I understand they still have the sub contracting side of the arrangement. The European govts are in a real bind especially the likes of the Spanish, Italian etc. Spain has a very high unemployment rate and a very high sovereign debt plus debt to GDP ratio. Also The concept of the Euro itself is now under stress and a lot of pressure has been put on Germany to prop it up. The UK and France have defence spending issues and these may put pressure on the overall A400M buy. One other thing that may impact is those countries who are buying the A400M and the F35. The F35 pricings are not yet fixed and there are quite a variation in the figures that are bandied around. At present it looks like an expensive aircraft to acquire, operate and sustain. That will have a significant impact upon militaries budgets so they may look at other areas to cut.

 

[MrConservative]

From an historical perspective the RNZAF was originally going to be C-130's for both the MPA and Transport role, but that changed to 5 C130 and 5P3. I can't remember exactly why it changed.

While current operations have required a greater need for strategic lift I'm not convinced that NZ needs the lift capability of the C17/A400. The current arrangement of leasing large strategic airlift or acquiring it from an ally seems more cost effective, though the down side is the potential lag in deployment. Don't get me started on the B757. If the majority of the C130 tasking capability used is at the low of its capability (in terms of tonnage / personnel movement) then a C17/A400 is even less viable . In addition a significant portion, but as Afghanistan and the LAVs showed not all, of the strategic lift can supplied by Canterbury.

In reading the discussion there appeared to be no direct correlation between the lift capability the RNZAF requires to support the JATF. That said the A400 does have some advantages (cost isn't one of them) in terms of capability with regards to providing an AAR / Electronic surveillance capability.

I'm not entirely convinced 4P8 and 4C295 would work in supporting the JATF. I do think 5 is the min number for P8. That said wasn't that combination originally quoted with UAV's in the mix. Sorry if I rehashed some debates, but I don't get the time follow the discussions like I use to.

Three UAV airframes yet undefined to complement the P-8 post 2025 was the thinking circa 2009. Likely that another MFR is to be done following the AMR to be released later next year.

The guys at the Think Defence Blog did an interesting though informal study on the wider potential as a multi-purpose platform of the A400M last year.

The Airbus A400M Atlas

 

[RegR]

I'm not sure how you can categorise 1 as a few, it's only the Germans who are planning on selling some, the rest aren't.

Not nesscesarily reffering to selling. With these other countries (Germany, SA, UK, Chile, Canada) 'offloading', cutting, alternating or even changing from their original purchase numbers of A400 meaning less competition for the excess 13 from actual countries that are currently contemplating, willing and able to aqquire A400 in the first place all adds to us possibly picking some up at lower than airbus costs from Germany.

I can't see any current customers adding numbers and 13 A400s is a sizeable fleet to move on. If any other potential customer has not already made rumbleings in this category and number range other than those who have already optioned then I see this as a good oppourtunity for a combined ANZAC pitch (OZ 9, NZ 4) to our german friends. I can also see Spain following a similar path to Germany (on-selling and recouping funds) if things don't get any better there, again all adding to possible favourable options to be had in the market. Competition makes for deals when it comes to salestime.

 

[MrConservative]

Spain has a very high unemployment rate and a very high sovereign debt plus debt to GDP ratio. Also The concept of the Euro itself is now under stress and a lot of pressure has been put on Germany to prop it up. The UK and France have defence spending issues and these may put pressure on the overall A400M buy. One other thing that may impact is those countries who are buying the A400M and the F35.

Spain has offered 18 Eurofighter to Peru.

Spain offers Eurofighters to Peru

Gives an idea of the trouble they are in.

 

[ngatimozart]

Three UAV airframes yet undefined to complement the P-8 post 2025 was the thinking circa 2009. Likely that another MFR is to be done following the AMR to be released later next year.

The guys at the Think Defence Blog did an interesting though informal study on the wider potential as a multi-purpose platform of the A400M last year.

The Airbus A400M Atlas

I've just read the Think Defence A400 part 3 - MPP article. That's very interesting and I will go and read the whol series. I see also other uses for a reasonable variety of those suggestions on smaller aircraft such as C27Js. Much food for thought.

 

[John Newman]

Not nesscesarily reffering to selling. With these other countries (Germany, SA, UK, Chile, Canada) 'offloading', cutting, alternating or even changing from their original purchase numbers of A400 meaning less competition for the excess 13 from actual countries that are currently contemplating, willing and able to aqquire A400 in the first place all adds to us possibly picking some up at lower than airbus costs from Germany.

I can't see any current customers adding numbers and 13 A400s is a sizeable fleet to move on. If any other potential customer has not already made rumbleings in this category and number range other than those who have already optioned then I see this as a good oppourtunity for a combined ANZAC pitch (OZ 9, NZ 4) to our german friends. I can also see Spain following a similar path to Germany (on-selling and recouping funds) if things don't get any better there, again all adding to possible favourable options to be had in the market. Competition makes for deals when it comes to salestime.

The idea of a combined ANZAC A400M purchase sounds like a good idea except for one thing ..... 'timing'.

The RAAF's C130J30's only came into service around 2000 and it probably won't be until around 2030 that they will be replaced, which appears to be well outside of the RNZAF's time frame to replace its Hercs.

And that's the problem, whilst I think combined purchases between our two Countries is a good idea, the reality is that the replacement programs are out of sync.

In hind sight, (and yes 20/20 hind sight is always a great thing), maybe what should have happened is that when the RAAF purchased the J model Hercs, NZ should have piggy backed and replaced the H models at the same time too.

And further to that, when the RAAF ordered the (as yet undelivered) C27J's, RNZAF could have piggy backed onto that too, (maybe there is still time for NZ to order C27J's of the same configuration in the near future, for common support reasons, etc).

Then moving forward to around 2030, we could have probably looked at a combined purchase of A400M's or the next version of the Herc.

I think that, unfortunately as things stand today, a combined purchase of A400M's is out of the question, not to say that we both might not end up operating them, but it would probably be a good 10 years apart in their respective introductions.

On a separate issue, maybe there is still a slight possibility of combined MPA purchase, replace our respective AP3C's and P3K2's with both P8A's and Triton, even then I don't think that the timing is totally in sync either, but it would be good to see the same MPA airframes in service either side of the ditch!

 

[KiwiRob]

The South Africans cut their orders completely but I understand they still have the sub contracting side of the arrangement. The European govts are in a real bind especially the likes of the Spanish, Italian etc. Spain has a very high unemployment rate and a very high sovereign debt plus debt to GDP ratio. Also The concept of the Euro itself is now under stress and a lot of pressure has been put on Germany to prop it up. The UK and France have defence spending issues and these may put pressure on the overall A400M buy. One other thing that may impact is those countries who are buying the A400M and the F35. The F35 pricings are not yet fixed and there are quite a variation in the figures that are bandied around. At present it looks like an expensive aircraft to acquire, operate and sustain. That will have a significant impact upon militaries budgets so they may look at other areas to cut.

All the issues you bring up were resolved at the last round of talks on A400 procurement a couple of years back, the partner nations are locked into the frames they have ordered, there is no wriggle room to drop any, of course like the Germans anyone can sell them after taking delivery.

Not nesscesarily reffering to selling. With these other countries (Germany, SA, UK, Chile, Canada) 'offloading', cutting, alternating or even changing from their original purchase numbers of A400 meaning less competition for the excess 13 from actual countries that are currently contemplating, willing and able to aqquire A400 in the first place all adds to us possibly picking some up at lower than airbus costs from Germany.

Canada never ordered any, so they had none to cancel and Chile only signed a MOU, they also never ordered any.

 

[RegR]

The idea of a combined ANZAC A400M purchase sounds like a good idea except for one thing ..... 'timing'.

The RAAF's C130J30's only came into service around 2000 and it probably won't be until around 2030 that they will be replaced, which appears to be well outside of the RNZAF's time frame to replace its Hercs.

And that's the problem, whilst I think combined purchases between our two Countries is a good idea, the reality is that the replacement programs are out of sync.

In hind sight, (and yes 20/20 hind sight is always a great thing), maybe what should have happened is that when the RAAF purchased the J model Hercs, NZ should have piggy backed and replaced the H models at the same time too.

And further to that, when the RAAF ordered the (as yet undelivered) C27J's, RNZAF could have piggy backed onto that too, (maybe there is still time for NZ to order C27J's of the same configuration in the near future, for common support reasons, etc).

Then moving forward to around 2030, we could have probably looked at a combined purchase of A400M's or the next version of the Herc.

I think that, unfortunately as things stand today, a combined purchase of A400M's is out of the question, not to say that we both might not end up operating them, but it would probably be a good 10 years apart in their respective introductions.

On a separate issue, maybe there is still a slight possibility of combined MPA purchase, replace our respective AP3C's and P3K2's with both P8A's and Triton, even then I don't think that the timing is totally in sync either, but it would be good to see the same MPA airframes in service either side of the ditch!

Yes was only a pipe dream, just would have been good to combine purchase. Germany will have 13 to on sell and there is no way NZ could purchase them all but would obviously sweeten the deal if they could all go at once. I hope we still buy @4 regardless leaveing them with 9 to re-home.

It was mooted for us to tag onto the C130J purchase (kinda like ANZAC) however our govt in all its wisdom decided an upgrade would suffice, penny pinching to stave off the hard decisions for a few more years.

Hopefully we do combine on the P8 and no one proposes yet another life extension on the P3s although I think you can only do it for so long before it becomes pointless, dangerous and a waste of money no matter the perceived savings.

 

[RegR]

Canada never ordered any, so they had none to cancel and Chile only signed a MOU, they also never ordered any.

Yes I know, I think you still do not understand what I am getting at. Canada was touted, Chile was looking, now they are not or have other options and that equals a better chance for us to buy some as they are now not looking at this particular aircraft.

Another 2 countries that obviously had an interest in the area of transport aircraft that have(had) the will, resources and basic requirement to possibly purchase A400s are now off the list of potential buyers for the surplus german 13.

Less potential buyers = more chance for us to buy (and hopefully at a better price).

 

[t68]

Would the RAAF have a need for A400M, when our airlift is covered by C-17, C-130J and C-27J plus the MRTT, we also have for VTOL operations CH-47D for use in the highlands (such as PNG) our AAR capability is with MRTT and that capability will be used for SH/F35A and AEW&C

For NZ on the other hand there is a need to improve strategic airlift for range and weight capability and needs the capability to support the South Pacific nations as does Australia.

As noted previously C-17 won’t be considered for a number of reasons, so A400M in my view is the only choice for strategic/tactical airlift for the long haul/outsize loads and 6 is the minimum (ideally I would like to see 9 aircraft) things in the short haul are a little more complicated and would depend on if P8 is certain starter. If P8 is not on the cards C295M will be the aircraft of choice and these will be a direct replacement for the Andover’s.

IMHO NZ has need for 5 CH-47F moving everything from troops to L119 with support into areas where C295M/C-27J cannot go, as for the 757-200 I would not replace them leased Boeing BBJ would suffice in the VIP role and are compatible with P8 if you jump that way.


You airlift/sealift is the priority as it’s the most visible element in the NZDF in peace and war for instance in the 2004 earthquake NZ contributed and I quote

“Military — Also, an Airforce (RNZAF) C-130 Hercules, working in unison with the Royal Australian Air Force, has been sent for evacuation and transport of relief supplies. . New Zealand has also sent an RNZAF 757 aircraft to the Thai city of Phuket with a specialist victim identification team on board. The 38-year-old aircraft have, unfortunately, been plagued with severe technical difficulties, and on several occasions, been forced to halt aid efforts”

Compared with the ADF

“Military — As part of Australia's aid-assistance, the Australian Defence Force (ADF) is working extensively in the region, alongside American forces. Upwards on 900 unarmed personnel are working in Indonesia, including 15 air-traffic controllers managing the massive aid effort in Aceh. Eight Royal Australian Air Force C-130 Hercules are currently assisting in the massive clean-up in Indonesia. Four Hercules are moving stores within Indonesia, while another four planes are establishing an air bridge to move material and personnel from Australia. At the outbreak of the disaster, three were immediately dispatched, laden with essentials such as medical supplies, water purification units, blankets and bottled water. Also, a Royal Australian Navy amphibious transport ship HMAS Kanimbla was dispatched from Sydney on New Year's Eve, to arrive in Indonesia on 13 January, with two H-3 Sea King helicopters on board. Furthermore, four Australian Army UH-1 Iroquois helicopters are working in Aceh, where the ADF has established a field hospital and water plant.”


We also have to consider in this instance that the Sea Kings were withdrawn due to the crash of a helicopter in Aceh

 

[RegR]

Would the RAAF have a need for A400M, when our airlift is covered by C-17, C-130J and C-27J plus the MRTT, we also have for VTOL operations CH-47D for use in the highlands (such as PNG) our AAR capability is with MRTT and that capability will be used for SH/F35A and AEW&C

For NZ on the other hand there is a need to improve strategic airlift for range and weight capability and needs the capability to support the South Pacific nations as does Australia.

As noted previously C-17 won’t be considered for a number of reasons, so A400M in my view is the only choice for strategic/tactical airlift for the long haul/outsize loads and 6 is the minimum (ideally I would like to see 9 aircraft) things in the short haul are a little more complicated and would depend on if P8 is certain starter. If P8 is not on the cards C295M will be the aircraft of choice and these will be a direct replacement for the Andover’s.

IMHO NZ has need for 5 CH-47F moving everything from troops to L119 with support into areas where C295M/C-27J cannot go, as for the 757-200 I would not replace them leased Boeing BBJ would suffice in the VIP role and are compatible with P8 if you jump that way.


You airlift/sealift is the priority as it’s the most visible element in the NZDF in peace and war for instance in the 2004 earthquake NZ contributed and I quote

“Military — Also, an Airforce (RNZAF) C-130 Hercules, working in unison with the Royal Australian Air Force, has been sent for evacuation and transport of relief supplies. . New Zealand has also sent an RNZAF 757 aircraft to the Thai city of Phuket with a specialist victim identification team on board. The 38-year-old aircraft have, unfortunately, been plagued with severe technical difficulties, and on several occasions, been forced to halt aid efforts”

Compared with the ADF

“Military — As part of Australia's aid-assistance, the Australian Defence Force (ADF) is working extensively in the region, alongside American forces. Upwards on 900 unarmed personnel are working in Indonesia, including 15 air-traffic controllers managing the massive aid effort in Aceh. Eight Royal Australian Air Force C-130 Hercules are currently assisting in the massive clean-up in Indonesia. Four Hercules are moving stores within Indonesia, while another four planes are establishing an air bridge to move material and personnel from Australia. At the outbreak of the disaster, three were immediately dispatched, laden with essentials such as medical supplies, water purification units, blankets and bottled water. Also, a Royal Australian Navy amphibious transport ship HMAS Kanimbla was dispatched from Sydney on New Year's Eve, to arrive in Indonesia on 13 January, with two H-3 Sea King helicopters on board. Furthermore, four Australian Army UH-1 Iroquois helicopters are working in Aceh, where the ADF has established a field hospital and water plant.”


We also have to consider in this instance that the Sea Kings were withdrawn due to the crash of a helicopter in Aceh

Gidday mate, something you need to remember is New Zealand, the country, has the same population base as Sydney, the city, and therefore probably the finances to match with aussies booming economy. Now if you consider Sydney on its own trying to purchase 9 A400s, 5 chinooks, P8s, C295s etc as well as run 3 battallions, logistical support, 90 LAV, 2 frigates, fleet tanker etc etc (you know what I'm getting at) then it all starts running abit thin somewhere along the line and will require x amount of funding and we do not have the rest of Australia to help as in Sydneys case.

We have to put alittle more planning, thought and logic into our aqquisitions and find whats best for our needs within our budget, unfortunately this sometimes means compromise, trade offs or even complete disbandment to make what we do have at some degree of standard. I think some on here on both sides of the Tasmen sometimes get alittle over zealous with a few OTT figures and requirements that are not really feasible within the constraints of our funding, supportability, useability and most importantly manpower.

Sure we could have a fleet of frigates, submarines, corvettes, LHDs, squadrons of fighters, transports, MPAs and helicopters and tanks, artillery, weapon systems to cover every role specifically but to be honest that money needs to come from somewhere and the hard question is where? Robbing Peter to pay Paul still leaves someone worse off and who decides who and in what state they are left in.

Honestly I would be surprised if we get 1 for 1 of what we currently have let alone adding above and beyond and this is due to the fact we have been dumming down, downsizing or even flat out cutting major cpability projects over the past few decades and we are not any more financially stable or better off, in fact we are in a worse position.

Trust me I would love to see more major projects ticked off appropriately and improved on greatly but I think we are making improvements capability wise it just seems to be by doing more with less numbers which again brings its own problems, maybe not immediately but will in time once fatigue begins and this refers to equipment, policy and people.

 

[ngatimozart]

Would the RAAF have a need for A400M, when our airlift is covered by C-17, C-130J and C-27J plus the MRTT, we also have for VTOL operations CH-47D for use in the highlands (such as PNG) our AAR capability is with MRTT and that capability will be used for SH/F35A and AEW&C

For NZ on the other hand there is a need to improve strategic airlift for range and weight capability and needs the capability to support the South Pacific nations as does Australia.

As noted previously C-17 won’t be considered for a number of reasons, so A400M in my view is the only choice for strategic/tactical airlift for the long haul/outsize loads and 6 is the minimum (ideally I would like to see 9 aircraft) things in the short haul are a little more complicated and would depend on if P8 is certain starter. If P8 is not on the cards C295M will be the aircraft of choice and these will be a direct replacement for the Andover’s.

IMHO NZ has need for 5 CH-47F moving everything from troops to L119 with support into areas where C295M/C-27J cannot go, as for the 757-200 I would not replace them leased Boeing BBJ would suffice in the VIP role and are compatible with P8 if you jump that way.


You airlift/sealift is the priority as it’s the most visible element in the NZDF in peace and war for instance in the 2004 earthquake NZ contributed and I quote

“Military — Also, an Airforce (RNZAF) C-130 Hercules, working in unison with the Royal Australian Air Force, has been sent for evacuation and transport of relief supplies. . New Zealand has also sent an RNZAF 757 aircraft to the Thai city of Phuket with a specialist victim identification team on board. The 38-year-old aircraft have, unfortunately, been plagued with severe technical difficulties, and on several occasions, been forced to halt aid efforts”

Compared with the ADF

“Military — As part of Australia's aid-assistance, the Australian Defence Force (ADF) is working extensively in the region, alongside American forces. Upwards on 900 unarmed personnel are working in Indonesia, including 15 air-traffic controllers managing the massive aid effort in Aceh. Eight Royal Australian Air Force C-130 Hercules are currently assisting in the massive clean-up in Indonesia. Four Hercules are moving stores within Indonesia, while another four planes are establishing an air bridge to move material and personnel from Australia. At the outbreak of the disaster, three were immediately dispatched, laden with essentials such as medical supplies, water purification units, blankets and bottled water. Also, a Royal Australian Navy amphibious transport ship HMAS Kanimbla was dispatched from Sydney on New Year's Eve, to arrive in Indonesia on 13 January, with two H-3 Sea King helicopters on board. Furthermore, four Australian Army UH-1 Iroquois helicopters are working in Aceh, where the ADF has established a field hospital and water plant.”


We also have to consider in this instance that the Sea Kings were withdrawn due to the crash of a helicopter in Aceh

I agree with a lot of what Reg has said although I am of the view that defence funding of 2% GDP is feasible and viable. 9 x A400Ms IS maybe what the ADF would require or dream about. Using Airbuses figures that equates to 20.25 x C130Js which is far in excess of what the ADF have. A one for one replacement of C130H(NZ) with A400M would be nice but that isn't going to happen. Four would be probably closer to the mark. Chooks are definitely a no starter - they are a capability that doesn't fit NZDFs requirements, plus the cost to own and operate. The NH90 Warrior meets NZs needs to get into areas that can't with fixed wing. My only issue is that I feel we should at least have another two of them. Whilst the C295 fuselage is longer than the C27J, it is my opinion that the C27J would be the better aircraft to meet NZs needs. I'll reiterate Regs point NZ the country has the same population as Sydney the city. The GDP (PPP) for NZ in 2012 was $US180.5 billlion estimated GDP (PPP) for Sydney in 2012 was US$203.1 billion.

 

[the road runner]

After reading Mr C link on the Atlas , i would think if NZ dose purchase A-400 it would be a compliment to what the ADF has,in that A-400 would slot in between a C-130 and a C-17.

Lets face it ,budget cuts are happening all around the world and as RegR has pointed out NZ has a shrinking budget as dose the ADF. Anyone who gets a 1 for 1 replacement on kit is doing well in this financial climate.

I wonder if talks have been happening between the ADF and NZDF about complimenting one another with different transport planes.

ADF has C-130J,C-27(soon) C-17,MRTT,737BBJ
NZ (could purchase) A-400 and C-235/295 and BBJ or Airbus A320/330

The above fleet would be very complimentary to each others Air forces that's for sure.
This type of variation could cater for any transport needs for both countries area of operations.