Royal New Zealand Air Force

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Pity NZ doesn't do something similar in terms of preserving a cadre of trained and qualified air combat pilots!

Plus an obituary on Air Marshall Sir Ewan Jamieson, who (amongst other achivements) carried out his functions as Defence Chief impartially and professionally under the Lange administration but also worked tirelessly with his US counterparts to save NZ's place in the ANZUS alliance (only to have the then PM cave in to his party's activist base and undo Sir Ewan Jamieson's good work). RIP.

http://www.airforce.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/airforce-news/afn147.pdf
The late Sir Ewan was highly critical of the demise of the air combat force in 2001. I am not sure if it was him or one of the other Clark's "Geriatric Generals" who mentioned at the time that it was only costing each Kiwi taxpayer 75 cents a week to keep the A-4K's. It does put that issue into perspective and Sir Ewan had one of the finest strategic and operational perspectives that this country has ever produced.

I have always had a huge amount of respect for Sir Ewan. I read his excellent book which gives his views on the demise of Anzus 20 years ago. Only met him once in a 2nd hand bookshop in Taupo years ago when I was buying a copy of Hargests Farewell Campo 12 and remember it well. We struck up a conversation over James Hargests failings on Crete and I put 2 and 2 together about who he was. "Yeah. I spent a few years in the Air Force." A very modest and unassuming man. RIP
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
<i>The eventual retirement of the RNZAF’s C-130Hs will see Airbus Military pitch the A400M and newly-launched C295W to the New Zealand government.

Announced at its annual briefing to trade media, Airbus Military said while it views New Zealand as a longer-term proposition, it is confident the two aircraft could fill the gap to be left by the ultimate retirement of the RNZAF’s five C-130Hs and indeed enhance the nation’s airlift capabilities.</i>

The Australian Aviation website (sorry, no link) reports that Airbus are touting a mix of A400s and C295s as an airlift solution for NZ.

Before anyone gets too excited, this is about as unsurprising as Toyota wanting to sell me a Corolla, or Fonterra wanting to sell the Chinese more milk. However, the fact they have mentioned it to the media suggests they will be putting some effort into lobbying the NZ Government when the Airlift Review is completed in 2015. Interesting times...
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A very good force multiplier is visible in the shots at the link below. If A400m were considered for the RNZAF, a very cheap force multiplier could be the acquisition of a pair of air refuelling pods, which would introduce a new capability into NZDF's force structure (though I remember the A-4K's used to have a buddy refuelling capability) and offer a force enhancement capability (for helo refuelling and the like) as well as a capability able to value add to regional or international coalition operations.

https://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/05/a400m-tanking-and-c295-winglet.html
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I think A400 would be a no brainer for RNZAF, more payload more range. The only reason I can see it failing is on cost.

I am divided on either C295 or C27J for island hopping in the South Pacfic area were a C130J and C27J have more in common but from we're i'am standing a A400M/C295 would be the better package for NZ also if P8 is to expensive C295 can double as a MPA.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Considering the vast distance NZ is would it be better to buy 3x C17 Globmaster at and 6 C27J that gives them globe reach for a single platform and use C27J South Pacific. Just look at the French awhile ago with them using RAF assets its a way the Kiwis can make a big contribution to a coalition and or HADR such as he Japan emergency.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Has the RNZAF actually made noises this is the way to go as part of the air 2015 review, a preliminary study for replacements should be underway now to determine what aircraft should be in the mix. But unfortunately by the time of the review then placing orders the C17 line might be closed.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense capability wise for RNZAF to split the airlift fleet between C17 and C27J strategic and tactical. When you consider what C17 can achieve for the NZDF compared to A400M. 2x C17 can airlift a troop of NZLAV(6) plus pax and stores where-as A400M you will need 4 aircraft to cover the same payload and distance,C27J has the ability to use the exiting payload structure as C17 as well(463l pallet) NZ can have a self-sustaining capability along with a JATF.

Currently there are 5 C130H aircraft which have had a SLEP and are expected to serve till 2020, under the DCP “the aircraft will be replaced at end of life with an equivalent or better capability.” As part of the DCP it is understood that NZ needs to be able to achieve strategic projection and logistic capability set not only in South Pacific but also the rest of the world.

The reality is 5 aircraft is not enough. 3x C17 will roughly cost about the same as 6x A400M but the 3x C17 will actually still have a larger overall lift capacity, the cost of which should be close to 1 Billion NZD then taking into account that the RAAF buy of 10 C27J was for 1.4 Billion AUD with 5 aircraft it should workout at roughly 700,000NZD for a total of around 1.6 Billion NZD. NZ airlift capability increases from the current 100,000KG to 290,000KG big capability increase with just 3 extra aircraft, but the only offset is it will double the projected cost of a one for one capability with A400M but the fleet will be more versatile
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Has the RNZAF actually made noises this is the way to go as part of the air 2015 review, a preliminary study for replacements should be underway now to determine what aircraft should be in the mix. But unfortunately by the time of the review then placing orders the C17 line might be closed.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense capability wise for RNZAF to split the airlift fleet between C17 and C27J strategic and tactical. When you consider what C17 can achieve for the NZDF compared to A400M. 2x C17 can airlift a troop of NZLAV(6) plus pax and stores where-as A400M you will need 4 aircraft to cover the same payload and distance,C27J has the ability to use the exiting payload structure as C17 as well(463l pallet) NZ can have a self-sustaining capability along with a JATF.

Currently there are 5 C130H aircraft which have had a SLEP and are expected to serve till 2020, under the DCP “the aircraft will be replaced at end of life with an equivalent or better capability.” As part of the DCP it is understood that NZ needs to be able to achieve strategic projection and logistic capability set not only in South Pacific but also the rest of the world.

The reality is 5 aircraft is not enough. 3x C17 will roughly cost about the same as 6x A400M but the 3x C17 will actually still have a larger overall lift capacity, the cost of which should be close to 1 Billion NZD then taking into account that the RAAF buy of 10 C27J was for 1.4 Billion AUD with 5 aircraft it should workout at roughly 700,000NZD for a total of around 1.6 Billion NZD. NZ airlift capability increases from the current 100,000KG to 290,000KG big capability increase with just 3 extra aircraft, but the only offset is it will double the projected cost of a one for one capability with A400M but the fleet will be more versatile
Regarding the C17 timing could be an issue. Boeing will deliver the final two of 223 USAF C17s this year. Then it has the Indian order of 10 that will take it through to late 2014. It thinks it might be able to sell 50 maybe 60 units internationally after that. Boeing eyes further international sales for C-17

The NZDF Air Transport study is ongoing at the moment and is due next year in order to inform the 2015 DWP, so any purchase decision probably wouldn't be made until 2015 at the earlist. With regard to any C17 purchase cost would be the largest negative in the eyes of the NZ pollies and bean counters. IMHO they would go for four A400s and maybe six C295s because that would be the cheaper option by far. They just might decide to acquire six or seven C130Js - that wouldn't surprise me in the slightist, because its a cheaper option again. Remember if they buy the A400 they will buy one extra as an attritional spares airframe. The other thing is that it is actually three aircraft types being replaced. The C130H(NZ), Andovers and the B757.

I know a couple on here don't like the B757, but that combi mod has served us well. I lurk on a kiwi aviation forum and it is well liked there. Only real issue they have is that it doesn't have a self protection kit. I agree that on paper the C17 / C27J combination you suggest is impressive but are those platforms really what would be best suited for NZDFs capability requirements? Personally I would back a A400 / C295 mix and replace the B757s with A321-200s modified to the same specs that the B757s. I'd also get three because if one falls over crook, you've always got another handy. If Airbus won't do the mods just buy the pax aircraft and take them to ST in Singapore who did the B757Combi mods. That's my other issue with the B757 - they should've got three. They should have figured that out from the vomit comets (B727) when they kept falling over all the time.

One final thing, the DCP is the aspirations but rarely do the aspirations and the reality coalesce.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Although I do like the idea of C-17s has'nt part of our problem been availability so if we limit ourselves to 3 platforms as opposed to say 5 then are'nt we kinda setting ourselves up again. Obviously C-17 can carry alot more but if its not guaranteed available due to maintanence, training, tasking etc then we still have issues. We have been struggleing to maintain tasks with 5 hercs and although a complimentry smaller lifter would help alleviate pressure I still think better to go with 5 A400s vs 3 C-17s purely on a numbers basis.

For the amount of time we would actually require the full lifting capacity of a C-17 would it be worth the extra costs of the purchase, maintanence and running involved?
We will never 'invade' a country so is less time critical to have so much equipment on the ground at once so moving 1 LAV vs 3 is acceptable for us and allows for a more graduated build up. We have only ever deployed LAV operationally once so who knows when the next time will be. We could end up with the same problem as the helos whereas the NH90 is too big and expensive for some tasks whilst the A109 is too small to cover somethng that requires a UH1H type, always going to be compromise in the air transport game just in what direction.

I think A400 will also slot nicely in any ANZAC force between Aus C-17 and C130J and provide varying options for tasks. 5 A400s and 5 CN295s(for cost and commonality sake) IMO will offer more flexibility then 3 C-17s and 5 C27s albeit with less upfront lift but the 2 extra heavy lifters should ensure 24/7 availability. RNZAF has expressed interest in A400 in the past but Im sure they would love C-17s if given a chance but as we all know when the time comes Its govt who hold the purse strings so anyones guess, hell we could even status quo and stick with hercules which would be marking time in my opinion not moving forward.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Has the RNZAF actually made noises this is the way to go as part of the air 2015 review, a preliminary study for replacements should be underway now to determine what aircraft should be in the mix. But unfortunately by the time of the review then placing orders the C17 line might be closed.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense capability wise for RNZAF to split the airlift fleet between C17 and C27J strategic and tactical. When you consider what C17 can achieve for the NZDF compared to A400M. 2x C17 can airlift a troop of NZLAV(6) plus pax and stores where-as A400M you will need 4 aircraft to cover the same payload and distance,C27J has the ability to use the exiting payload structure as C17 as well(463l pallet) NZ can have a self-sustaining capability along with a JATF.

Currently there are 5 C130H aircraft which have had a SLEP and are expected to serve till 2020, under the DCP “the aircraft will be replaced at end of life with an equivalent or better capability.” As part of the DCP it is understood that NZ needs to be able to achieve strategic projection and logistic capability set not only in South Pacific but also the rest of the world.

The reality is 5 aircraft is not enough. 3x C17 will roughly cost about the same as 6x A400M but the 3x C17 will actually still have a larger overall lift capacity, the cost of which should be close to 1 Billion NZD then taking into account that the RAAF buy of 10 C27J was for 1.4 Billion AUD with 5 aircraft it should workout at roughly 700,000NZD for a total of around 1.6 Billion NZD. NZ airlift capability increases from the current 100,000KG to 290,000KG big capability increase with just 3 extra aircraft, but the only offset is it will double the projected cost of a one for one capability with A400M but the fleet will be more versatile
Whilst I agree with you that there is no doubt that the payload capacity, etc, of a C17A is significantly more than an A400M, the question I have, is 3 C17A's enough?

If we look at the RAAF fleet, when there were 4 airframes, just at the time that number 5 was due for delivery the first of the original fleet of 4 was due to return to the US for their major overhaul, which from memory was to be about 6mths per airframe.

If the extra 2 C17A's hadn't been ordered the RAAF fleet would have effectively been reduced to 3 airframes for a period of close to 2 years.

If the RNZAF was to acquire 3 C17A's, at some time in the future they would also need to go through the same 6mth major overhaul process, which would then reduce the fleet to two airframes for a period of 18mths as they follow each other through that process.

And that reduction doesn't take into account any further reductions due to an aircraft undertaking minor maintenance or being grounded due to a fault of some type.

The other question for the RNZAF, is that some time in the future the P3K's also need replacement too, could they also afford to replace them with P8A's?

Maybe the answer to both questions is to have 5-6 A400M's and 8-10 C295's (split between transport and MPA roles), would that be a more cost effective solution for what is a fairly tight NZ Defence budget?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Although I do like the idea of C-17s has'nt part of our problem been availability so if we limit ourselves to 3 platforms as opposed to say 5 then are'nt we kinda setting ourselves up again. Obviously C-17 can carry alot more but if its not guaranteed available due to maintanence, training, tasking etc then we still have issues. We have been struggleing to maintain tasks with 5 hercs and although a complimentry smaller lifter would help alleviate pressure I still think better to go with 5 A400s vs 3 C-17s purely on a numbers basis.
Reg remember your reason why the military does everything in threes. One fully operational, one training and / or in light maintenance and one in heavy maintenace. So on that count three C17s wouldn't create an availability issue per se. But I do agree withyou on the numbers basis.

For the amount of time we would actually require the full lifting capacity of a C-17 would it be worth the extra costs of the purchase, maintanence and running involved?
We will never 'invade' a country so is less time critical to have so much equipment on the ground at once so moving 1 LAV vs 3 is acceptable for us and allows for a more graduated build up. We have only ever deployed LAV operationally once so who knows when the next time will be. We could end up with the same problem as the helos whereas the NH90 is too big and expensive for some tasks whilst the A109 is too small to cover somethng that requires a UH1H type, always going to be compromise in the air transport game just in what direction.
Well if Lange had his way we would've invaded Fiji after the first coup. I beg to differ on the helos. Both types give us capability we haven't had before and you don't see the irowhokkas flying around with all seats filled all the time. I would hazard a guess that it would happen reasonably less than 50% of the time. The Makos give us capability that we never had with the Sioux.

I think A400 will also slot nicely in any ANZAC force between Aus C-17 and C130J and provide varying options for tasks. 5 A400s and 5 CN295s(for cost and commonality sake) IMO will offer more flexibility then 3 C-17s and 5 C27s albeit with less upfront lift but the 2 extra heavy lifters should ensure 24/7 availability. RNZAF has expressed interest in A400 in the past but Im sure they would love C-17s if given a chance but as we all know when the time comes Its govt who hold the purse strings so anyones guess, hell we could even status quo and stick with hercules which would be marking time in my opinion not moving forward.
I agree plus one extra A400 as an attritional / spares airframe. We would go with the C295 not the CN295. The CN295 is the Indonesian built variant of the C295.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Whilst I agree with you that there is no doubt that the payload capacity, etc, of a C17A is significantly more than an A400M, the question I have, is 3 C17A's enough?

If we look at the RAAF fleet, when there were 4 airframes, just at the time that number 5 was due for delivery the first of the original fleet of 4 was due to return to the US for their major overhaul, which from memory was to be about 6mths per airframe.

If the extra 2 C17A's hadn't been ordered the RAAF fleet would have effectively been reduced to 3 airframes for a period of close to 2 years.

If the RNZAF was to acquire 3 C17A's, at some time in the future they would also need to go through the same 6mth major overhaul process, which would then reduce the fleet to two airframes for a period of 18mths as they follow each other through that process.

And that reduction doesn't take into account any further reductions due to an aircraft undertaking minor maintenance or being grounded due to a fault of some type.

The other question for the RNZAF, is that some time in the future the P3K's also need replacement too, could they also afford to replace them with P8A's?

Maybe the answer to both questions is to have 5-6 A400M's and 8-10 C295's (split between transport and MPA roles), would that be a more cost effective solution for what is a fairly tight NZ Defence budget?
You are spot on about the C17 John. The P3K2 has apparently been deemed a national strategic platform and as such will be replaced by something of equal or better capability. Given that at the moment the P8 is the only MPA that meets that requirement, then one would presume that the NZG would be starting to think about hoarding its pennies for the P8. I think the Minister of Finance still has his bird nesting and tooth fairy money. However remember that by the time we get to buy the P8, it will be well into production and a mature aircraft, so costs will theoretically be lower than, say the unit cost that the ADF will be paying in 2017 for their P8s. We know that the P8 has ASW, AsuW and ISR capabilities. One would presume that it will also have impressive computing and networking capabilities, so it could be presumed to be a C5ISR platform. The P3K2s have over land ISR capabilities now and that is one capability the NZG will not want to lose. The C295 at present does not have C5ISR and so if a MPA variant of it was used, it would be only as maybe a EEZ patrol and back up to the P3K2 and the P8 in the ASW, AsuW & SAR role.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
You are spot on about the C17 John. The P3K2 has apparently been deemed a national strategic platform and as such will be replaced by something of equal or better capability. Given that at the moment the P8 is the only MPA that meets that requirement, then one would presume that the NZG would be starting to think about hoarding its pennies for the P8. I think the Minister of Finance still has his bird nesting and tooth fairy money. However remember that by the time we get to buy the P8, it will be well into production and a mature aircraft, so costs will theoretically be lower than, say the unit cost that the ADF will be paying in 2017 for their P8s. We know that the P8 has ASW, AsuW and ISR capabilities. One would presume that it will also have impressive computing and networking capabilities, so it could be presumed to be a C5ISR platform. The P3K2s have over land ISR capabilities now and that is one capability the NZG will not want to lose. The C295 at present does not have C5ISR and so if a MPA variant of it was used, it would be only as maybe a EEZ patrol and back up to the P3K2 and the P8 in the ASW, AsuW & SAR role.
Ngatimozart,

It's good to hear that the P3K's have been deemed to be a national strategic platform and that they will be replaced by similar or better.

I wasn't suggesting for one minute that the C295 MPA has anywhere near the P3K's capability, was purely looking at the amount of money that would be available.

From what I understand, you Government is only spending around 1% of GDP, which in raw dollar terms and taking into account the exchange rate, is about 10% of what Australia currently spends on Defence per annum, so I just wonder if the NZ Government can actually fund the replacements of both the transport and MPA fleets.

Let's hope that the money will be available when the time comes.

It would be good to eventually see a future 'Anzac' fleet of P8A's and possibly also Tritons operating on both side of the ditch!

But getting back to the transport fleet, if Airbus Military sharpens it's pencil, a good 'package' deal could be found in purchasing A400M's and C295's.

And if Airbus Military was successful in NZ, it might also give them a boost in selling A400M's to Australia when the C130J's come up for replacement in the late 2020's too.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ngatimozart,

It's good to hear that the P3K's have been deemed to be a national strategic platform and that they will be replaced by similar or better.

I wasn't suggesting for one minute that the C295 MPA has anywhere near the P3K's capability, was purely looking at the amount of money that would be available.

From what I understand, you Government is only spending around 1% of GDP, which in raw dollar terms and taking into account the exchange rate, is about 10% of what Australia currently spends on Defence per annum, so I just wonder if the NZ Government can actually fund the replacements of both the transport and MPA fleets.

Let's hope that the money will be available when the time comes.

It would be good to eventually see a future 'Anzac' fleet of P8A's and possibly also Tritons operating on both side of the ditch!

But getting back to the transport fleet, if Airbus Military sharpens it's pencil, a good 'package' deal could be found in purchasing A400M's and C295's.

And if Airbus Military was successful in NZ, it might also give them a boost in selling A400M's to Australia when the C130J's come up for replacement in the late 2020's too.
I was thinking that if Airbus Military are really serious about getting the NZG to buy the A400 and the C295 they should give us one of each on appro or loan for say a year (no longer) to play with. That would I think really highlight the package to the pollies and bean counters. Really good bait to land the big tasty fish with.

I think the current bunch of pollies might be slowly getting the idea that they are going to have to inject capex funds into NZDF. They had been saying since 2010 there would be no capex injections until after 2015 but we got a capex injection this year. I live in hope but I'm not holding my breath. Our Def Minister is proud of his !% GDP funding and has been skiting to the poms about it.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I was thinking that if Airbus Military are really serious about getting the NZG to buy the A400 and the C295 they should gives one of each on appro or loan for say a year (no longer) to play with. That would I think really highlight the package to the pollies and bean counters. Really good bait to land the fish with.
Now that would be a good idea.

And from what I've read, the German's are reducing their order of A400M's from 60 to 53, and they also intend to try and sell 13 leaving a fleet of 40, so there may be a few more bargains to be had.

And apart from being good bait, as you suggest for NZ, it would also give the RAAF a chance to have a good look at them too.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Reg remember your reason why the military does everything in threes. One fully operational, one training and / or in light maintenance and one in heavy maintenace. So on that count three C17s wouldn't create an availability issue per se. But I do agree withyou on the numbers basis.


Well if Lange had his way we would've invaded Fiji after the first coup. I beg to differ on the helos. Both types give us capability we haven't had before and you don't see the irowhokkas flying around with all seats filled all the time. I would hazard a guess that it would happen reasonably less than 50% of the time. The Makos give us capability that we never had with the Sioux.


I agree plus one extra A400 as an attritional / spares airframe. We would go with the C295 not the CN295. The CN295 is the Indonesian built variant of the C295.
Yes Ngati understand the rule of 3 (to be honest I think 3 C17s would be a stretch for us to aqquire) but this number is the bare minimum and bare minmum has never worked out well. I would be surprised if we even got 1 for 1 A400 as it is but 3 is definately not a good number in regard to this particular capability.

Not sure what you are saying about the helos, I know they give us added capability in both spectrums and that is great but they also have a huge divide not easily filled by either. For example the police operations conducted every year will probably be tightened as neither party will want to fund the hours of a 90 or work around the cabin size of a 109, same goes for search and rescues to a degree. you'll find alot will change once the hueys finally retire.

Not sure if the spare frame idea works well for every aircraft type, A400 is getting alittle up there in terms of scale. At some point the savings will start to decline as it becomes more about the airframe and less about the usable parts in terms of costs. Will be like us buying a spare frigate to float the other 2 when your better off just using it and buying spares seperately.

My bad, C/CN don't really know but the type is what Im getting at, C27? is getting up there in terms of price when both offer similar capabilities and at the end of the day we know which end of the price scale our govt would rather lean on.

Sadly I do feel that due to the close timeframes of replacement projects and huge costs involved we will end up deficient in either numbers, type or options on 1, more or all unless govt sorts out its funding now and sets in motion a robust plan complete with the inevitable fudge factor.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Yes Ngati understand the rule of 3 (to be honest I think 3 C17s would be a stretch for us to aqquire) but this number is the bare minimum and bare minmum has never worked out well. I would be surprised if we even got 1 for 1 A400 as it is but 3 is definately not a good number in regard to this particular capability.

Not sure what you are saying about the helos, I know they give us added capability in both spectrums and that is great but they also have a huge divide not easily filled by either. For example the police operations conducted every year will probably be tightened as neither party will want to fund the hours of a 90 or work around the cabin size of a 109, same goes for search and rescues to a degree. you'll find alot will change once the hueys finally retire.

Not sure if the spare frame idea works well for every aircraft type, A400 is getting alittle up there in terms of scale. At some point the savings will start to decline as it becomes more about the airframe and less about the usable parts in terms of costs. Will be like us buying a spare frigate to float the other 2 when your better off just using it and buying spares seperately.

My bad, C/CN don't really know but the type is what Im getting at, C27? is getting up there in terms of price when both offer similar capabilities and at the end of the day we know which end of the price scale our govt would rather lean on.

Sadly I do feel that due to the close timeframes of replacement projects and huge costs involved we will end up deficient in either numbers, type or options on 1, more or all unless govt sorts out its funding now and sets in motion a robust plan complete with the inevitable fudge factor.
The attritional airframe would be the only practical thing to do with the A400 because of the history of European paucity of spares backup. I think there are three areas where they won't skimp. One is the air transport capability; 2, the P3K2 replacement and 3, the amphib ships. Replacement FFHs are 50/50 and the more I think about it themore I suspect that corvettes aka heavily armed & capable OPVs may be what the RNZN gets. Yes a lot will change once the Huey retires but I think for the better. Personally I think that they should buy another four NH90s and armoured navalised armed Makos with a couple of fixed .50cal, rocket pods and maybe Hellfire. That's my second choice. I'd prefer some refurbised ex USN SH60Fs with the DAP affixed to them. That's some firepower.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
The attritional airframe would be the only practical thing to do with the A400 because of the history of European paucity of spares backup. I think there are three areas where they won't skimp. One is the air transport capability; 2, the P3K2 replacement and 3, the amphib ships. Replacement FFHs are 50/50 and the more I think about it themore I suspect that corvettes aka heavily armed & capable OPVs may be what the RNZN gets. Yes a lot will change once the Huey retires but I think for the better. Personally I think that they should buy another four NH90s and armoured navalised armed Makos with a couple of fixed .50cal, rocket pods and maybe Hellfire. That's my second choice. I'd prefer some refurbised ex USN SH60Fs with the DAP affixed to them. That's some firepower.
You would think up-gunning a few 109s would be a nice compromise between no heavy armour and no jet top cover but alas its all abit too much for our 'flowers and hearts' govt to swallow. I fear it would take something drastic for this to gain traction and become reality as fitting cannons and rockets would be seen by the hippies as offensive rather than defensive in todays climate.
 

the road runner

Active Member
The attritional airframe would be the only practical thing to do with the A400 because of the history of European paucity of spares backup.
Thats what i was thinking with the A400. Spares would have to play a big part in the A-400 selection. I just wonder will more European country's cancel orders for the A400
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sadly I have the feeling that what the RNZAF ends up with in terms of airlift will end up being a poor choice, or perhaps a series of poor choices. By that I mean either more money being spent for nn capacity then needed, and/or insufficient total capacity.

Part of the reason I feel this way is due basically to have the airlift replacement programme has been handled. Basically a decade ago it was recognized that the RNZAF airlift needed replacement, so instead of that being started, a SLEP was done on the existing C-130H's and the B727's were retired and replaced with B757's. Now that would have been somewhat acceptable if a long-term airlift replacement programme was running in the background, defining Future Airlifter capability requirements, getting RFI's and RFP's, etc. It still IMO would have been problematic, particularly with the Herc upgrade cost blowout, but better than the situation now.

It is my understanding that the airlift study which is due to be completed with some sort of recommendations by 2015 will more or less fufill many of the early duties of a replacement programme (i.e. airlift requirements, basic platform capacity needed, range/number of platforms, etc). However, given that a 'normally' run programme can take a decade or more between the initial stages defining what is needed/desired and IOC, it is likely that even if the study provides specific platform recommendations, it could easily be 5+ years between the study publication and IOC.

Given that even with the SLEP underway for the C-130H's, the clock is ticking on those aircraft, and it is likely that the future airlifter(s) could not reach IOC until 2020 at the earliest. Basically that means that if everything goes smoothly, NZ could have the first replacement reach IOC right about when the first of the C-130H SLEP's need to either be retired or undergo another SLEP... Taking into account how often military procurement programmes run smoothly... (this applies to all countries, not just NZ) then I would expect delays and/or cost overruns. This is even assuming that whatever recommendations the study makes are available in a timely fashion and for a reasonable amount. If designs have gone out of series production (IIRC the C-17 and C-295 both have sufficient orders booked until towards the end of 2014, after that...) then the recommended platform(s) could cost more because production must be restarted. That or the study results might have to be ignored outright since platforms would have gone out of production.

The way things appear at present, the C-17 and C-295 will cease production in 2014 with the lines likely getting closed some time in 2015 (some long leadtime items may already have gone out of serial production). The study results and any recommendations will come some time in 2015, at which point the RFI and/or RFP process can start. Unless of course Gov't has already selected either the A400M or C-130J (the only two significant Western military airlifters which would be in production at the time) in which case it would just be a matter of pricing, support, and contract negotiations. I suspect at the earliest a contract could be signed would be in ~2016, with 2017-2018 more likely if Gov't has not already made a decision without a RFP. This means the RNZAF finally getting into the order queue, but depending on which airlifter was chosen and what the order bookings look like, it might still be several more years before the first replacement airlifter reachs IOC with a Kiwi roundel.

Now from a military and planning perspective, one of the things I would not wish to see the RNZAF repeat would be a purchase of a civilian airliner as an airlifter. I freely admit that I feel the B757 purchase was and has been a mistake. Quite apart from the fact that the B757's were purchased second-hand having ceased production in 2004, and the lack of a self-defence suite which restricted operations to 'benign' environments... The design itself is suited to transporting a number of personnel and some palletized cargo between functioning airports. The movement of outsized cargo, and/or operations from areas without the cargo handling facilities of an airport, limit the usefulness of the B757 and for that matter basically all civilian airliners. I could be mistaken, but AFAIK the NZDF does not routinely need to move 250+ personnel at a time by long-ranged aircraft. If/when that sort of airlift is required, then the NZDF should charter airliners from Air NZ. This could allow the RNZAF to concentrate on operating airlift which is capable of moving vehicles and pallets without the use of outside kit. IMO anyways.

-Cheers
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Thats what i was thinking with the A400. Spares would have to play a big part in the A-400 selection. I just wonder will more European country's cancel orders for the A400
According to Wiki the UK has reduced its order of 25 to 22, and as mentioned earlier, Germany is cutting its order of 60 to 53 and plans to sell off 13 to have an active fleet of 40, and on top of that of course, South Africa cancelled their original order of 8 down to nil.

Total orders from 8 countries currently stands at 174.

Spain has 27 on order, with their economic problems, one would think they would probably stand out as a candidate for a reduction.
 
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