The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[kev 99]

I reckon it might be replacements for those used in Libya, I know the Trafalgar class SSN we had there suffered a missfire, one of the Tomahawks got stuck in the tube and it had to return to base for removal, Trafalgar's have got 5 tubes so 5-1=4.

:unknown

 

[RobWilliams]

I vaguely recall reading that in the initial round of TLAM firing, a T-boat (I forget which) launched something like 7 missiles and returned to port with 7 Tomahawks on the Jolly Rodger.

I'll check that though, just to make sure.

EDIT: There's a Telegraph article about HMS Triumph (which was the boat I was thinking of) which says "Defence insiders say as many as 12 of the weapons have been fired from the hunter–killer submarine Triumph in the past four days. "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Navy-running-short-of-Tomahawk-missiles.html

 

[kev 99]

bah humbug :mad

 

[RobWilliams]

Glad to see it go through though, compared to no order at all.

Here's something, what sort of stuff has to be altered on a regular TLAM to make it sub-launched? AFAIK it was *essentially* the same except it's fitted with a collar to make it compatible with the torpedo tubes, but i'd love the clarification.

 

[StobieWan]

Glad to see it go through though, compared to no order at all.

Here's something, what sort of stuff has to be altered on a regular TLAM to make it sub-launched? AFAIK it was *essentially* the same except it's fitted with a collar to make it compatible with the torpedo tubes, but i'd love the clarification.

The missile itself is fully encapsulated in the tube and VLS roles, different capsules for each - the tube launched variant has a gas generator system to squirt the missile out under pressure. As far as I understand it, there's two types of capsule, one for SSN's for tube launch and one for SSGN VLS launch - Mk45 mod 1 for SSN's and Mk45 Mod 2 for SSGN's.

Looking at it, there's a few bits that get fitted to the missile prior to it being slotted into a capsule, and those bits are similar but the SSGN variant has a facility to flood water into the capsule which is retained in the silo for ballast, whereas the tube launched jobby doesn't need to do that.

On how it works with mk41 VLS, that's a gas generator launch, different system entirely so you'd need the fittings and capsule. Looks like pulling one and inserting into another is depot level task.

Here's way more info than you thought you'd find


http://info.publicintelligence.net/TomahawkManual.pdf

It seems accurate but since I'll never get my hands a TLAM to try it out, I can't guarantee it

 

[kev 99]

Some news on Crowsnest:

A program to replace the Royal Navy’s airborne early warning capability has moved a step forward with approval for assessment phase work on the Merlin Mk2 helicopter-based system being awarded to Lockheed Martin UK.

UK Advances New AEW Capabilities

Looks like we're AEW is going to be into service about the same time as the carriers, which is some decent news at last.

 

[RobWilliams]

Trouble being the AEW Sea Kings bow out somewhen in 2016, when HMS Queen Elizabeth is down to be commissioned, and the replacement isn't due to come in until 2020.

I mean I get that *realistically* she shouldn't *really* be needing them before then as - I think - she's down to officially be declared operational in 2020 so the 4 years from commissioning should be working up the ship/crew plus rotary flight testing + fixed wing flight trials from 2018+ so she'll be busy with Merlin HM2's, HC4's, Chinooks, Apaches + probably Wildcats and later on the F35B's.

I hope that Vigilance get's picked however, IIRC it's based on the radar from the F35.

 

[kev 99]

Trouble being the AEW Sea Kings bow out somewhen in 2016, when HMS Queen Elizabeth is down to be commissioned, and the replacement isn't due to come in until 2020.

I mean I get that *realistically* she shouldn't *really* be needing them before then as - I think - she's down to officially be declared operational in 2020 so the 4 years from commissioning should be working up the ship/crew plus rotary flight testing + fixed wing flight trials from 2018+ so she'll be busy with Merlin HM2's, HC4's, Chinooks, Apaches + probably Wildcats and later on the F35B's.

Personally I think getting them into service earlier would be a benefit as we wouldn't be working up all aspects of the carriers capability at the same time, but coin saving wins out as always.

I hope that Vigilance get's picked however, IIRC it's based on the radar from the F35.

Yes a pair of them.

 

[RobWilliams]

HMS Dragon has reached the Gulf & is conducting operations as part of the US CSG 8 with USS Dwight D Eisenhower

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/7555

HMS Dragon has begun her Gulf deployment in earnest – by slipping into the world’s most powerful naval task force: a US Navy Carrier Strike Group.

The Portsmouth-based destroyer joined the USS Dwight D Eisenhower and took part in an impressive five-way refuelling and resupply operation played out in searing temperatures

It’s a shame we can’t give you a soundtrack to this photograph – and we’re not talking about the roar of the impressive array of jets on the deck of the USS Dwight D Eisenhower.

At full blast from the loudspeaker of HMS Dragon blares the new destroyer’s signature tune – that’s Rhyfelgyrch Gwŷr Harlech for Welsh speakers – as the Portsmouth-based warship takes up station with the Ike’s battle group, with her captain Capt Iain Lower directing things from the bridge wing.

Just 36 hours after taking over the reins as the UK’s Gulf guardship, the Type 45 destroyer joined forces with Carrier Strike Group 8 – the most powerful naval task force on the Seven Seas.

As the Royal Navy’s premier air defender, it is Dragon’s mission to protect the strike group – flagship Eisenhower, one cruiser, three destroyers, and the various squadrons of Carrier Air Wing 7 who give Ike her awesome striking power – from aerial attack courtesy of her Sea Viper missile system and impressive Sampson radar.

Dragon’s arrival was greeted by the strike group’s commander Rear Admiral Michael C Manazir, who personally piloted an F18 Hornet from the deck of his carrier – and carried out a high-speed flypast of the destroyer.

The action did not stop there as the Royal Navy warship moved in as part of a five-way refuelling operation so she could top up her tanks.

The operation – known as replenishment at sea – is typically carried out individually; occasionally two ships take on sustenance from a support vessel simultaneously.

Dragon was due to take on fuel from the USNS Walter S Diehl – which was providing fuel and stores to the Eisenhower and the cruiser USS Hué City.

Once the Hué City peeled away in a graceful turn to starboard, it left the way open for Dragon to take station 55 metres (180ft) from the Diehl with her gas turbines singing.

For the destroyer’s navigator, 28-year-old Lt Carla Higgins from Wolverhampton, this was a true test of planning, preparation and ship handling.

“It was amazing to think that the ship had come from training in the South Coast exercise areas and the first RAS on the deployment was in company with the Eisenhower,” she said.

“The team worked really well and all the hard work put into the planning and practice by everyone involved paid off in having a two-hour pit stop without any incident, it went like clockwork.”

While this was going on, Ike was simultaneously receiving supplies by helicopter from the USNS Medger Evers as the Hué City stood guard over the force.

The operation was on a grander scale than RN warships would normally experience off Plymouth during weekly training, but the principles were just the same.

The refuelling was played out in 30˚C heat and 90 per cent humidity – physically exhausting for those involved on Dragon’s upper decks; they were sustained by a liberal supply of choc ices.

“With the Welsh Flag proudly flying from the halyards alongside the White Ensign, Dragon completed her refuelling with The March of the Men of Harlech to sign off over the upper deck broadcast,” said Dragon’s weapon engineer officer Lt Cdr Kevin Miller.

“A Welsh flavour to the region that continues from where HMS Monmouth left off.”

As for Dragon’s Commanding Officer, Capt Iain Lower, he’s pleased with the way his ship’s company are getting stuck into the destroyer’s maiden deployment.

“The last few days have been really important in setting the right tone for forthcoming operations, we’ve done well so far and there is more that we can do to refine things even further,” he said.

“We welcome the opportunity to integrate with the Carrier Strike Group and to demonstrate what a really capable ship the Type 45 is. We are providing a baseline for operations here with our future Queen Elizabeth-class in mind and are capturing all the learning points to enhance the smooth integration of that significant capability into both the Royal Navy and joint operations.”

Brilliant, the more experience these ships get with large aircraft carriers these ships can get the better the transition with the Queen Elizabeth class will be. Bit weird though, there's a bit about the US CSG commander getting up in a F-18 as a "welcome", didn't know senior officers like that did any flying really. Can't wait for more news later, out of all the Type 45's only 50% of them have so far worked with US carriers.

This comes when there's an increased amount of chatter of a more permanent UK presence in the Gulf region, this is more of an Army/RAF foreword basing strategy than the Navy to a lesser degree. But there's definitely the desire to 'plug the gap' with the US pivoting to the Pacific, and some particulary defining statistics coming out from RUSI; 85% of the UK's LNG comes from Qatar. The better ideas coming out from this document i'll link below is that currently the RAF uses Al-Minhad airbase in Dubai as a logistics hub for Afghanistan, but one idea is that the majority of the equipment pulled out of Afghanistan should be relocated there instead.

But anyway, this is Navy, so i'll link it down below.

http://www.rusi.org/downloads/assets/East_of_Suez_Return_042013.pdf

EDIT: Here's a cracking graphic of how far along HMS Queen Elizabeth is in her construction, courtesy of Wizz over at militaryphotos.net, it's attached. She's doing quite well, won't be long until the aft island is on and she's floated out early next year

 

[spsun100001]

Really nice link Rob. Although I suspect that the lack of Co-operative Engagement Capability has a big impact on Dragon's ability to operate as an integrated asset in the carrier's AAW escort team if things went hot. Leaving CEC off the Type 45 is little short of criminal.

I worry about the usefulness of our carriers as well unless there are incremental improvements (where practical) to their capabilities.

You previously posted that the planned armament for the F35b's would initially be limited to AMRAAM, ASRAAM and Paveway.

That leaves them with no ARM for SEAD missions, no ASM for ASuW missions and no stand off land attack capability. That means our aircraft either can't undertake missions against adversaries with sea or land based SAM capability, we have to rely on US or French carrier aircraft to establish battlespace dominance first or we undertake the mission acknowledging that it will involve considerably more risk to the aircraft.

To my mind we must try to incrementally improve the range of weapons the F35 can carry or we have made a huge investment in ships and aircraft and then severely limited their capability.

The choice of the F35b has been debated to death and is a done deal but it does limit the range of missions both because the aircraft has a shorter range than the alternatives and because the carrier will not have an air to air refueling capability. Will the ability to only operate V/STOL also impact on our ability to use drones going forward as well?

The limitations of only operating 12 aircraft and the difficulties of surging that number have also been discussed previously.

The AEW solution also inhibits us. The limited range, endurance and speed of the helicopter platform means it will only really be useful for providing an air picture over the carrier and the littoral. If you wanted to put the AEW nearer to/over the opposition air space that would not be practical with a helicopter. Therefore trying to get air dominance over opposition territory anywhere away from the littoral would be difficult due to not being able to provide on-station AEW for your fighters.

At the moment it seems to me that we are spending a lot of money on a carrier capability that will be fine against third world adversaries but against any opposition with a half decent air force or SAM network we would need to either be in the second wave after the US and French had kicked in the door or be tasked with providing fleet air defence to protect the ships whilst others contested the air battle space away from the littoral coordinated by their fixed wing AEW assets.

Some of the limitations we have we are stuck with but it seems to me that if the range of weapons on the F35b is to be as limited as suggested and is not improved then we are getting a Mercedes with a one litre engine. Yes it works, yes it has its uses but in no way does it afford the capability you would expect to have after spending all of that money to get a Mercedes.

 

[RobWilliams]

Really nice link Rob. Although I suspect that the lack of Co-operative Engagement Capability has a big impact on Dragon's ability to operate as an integrated asset in the carrier's AAW escort team if things went hot. Leaving CEC off the Type 45 is little short of criminal.

I wouldn't say *criminal* exactly, criminal in my mind would be leaving off capabilities which make the ship unable to function in a primary role. The Type 45's are already extremely capable ships in AAW, I agree CEC should be funded ASAP, but let's not act like the Type 45 as is is just armed with nerf darts

I worry about the usefulness of our carriers as well unless there are incremental improvements (where practical) to their capabilities.

You previously posted that the planned armament for the F35b's would initially be limited to AMRAAM, ASRAAM and Paveway.

That leaves them with no ARM for SEAD missions, no ASM for ASuW missions and no stand off land attack capability. That means our aircraft either can't undertake missions against adversaries with sea or land based SAM capability, we have to rely on US or French carrier aircraft to establish battlespace dominance first or we undertake the mission acknowledging that it will involve considerably more risk to the aircraft.

Yup, those are the initial weapons when she reaches IOC, with weapons planned for integration being SPEAR 3, Storm Shadow & Brimstone 2 in the future. It's the UK's MO, look at the enhancement programs for Tiffy and what she can carry in about 5 years or so.

With regards to the ARM how much of an issue is it *really*? Static positions have a fundamental obvious weakness, and future weapons like SPEAR 3 are designed for relatively stand off targeting at moving vehicles. Seriously, i'd like someone in the know to explain it to me. But if it IS a problem then we'd need a ARM then.

Stand off land attack capability isn't *neccesarily* a problem for the F35B due to the nature of the "stand off" part. The idea being that the launch vehicle is far enough away from danger to experience too much of a threat, Storm Shadow has a range >250km. Factor in that if we needed a target destroyed within enemy territory and the stand off feature not being adequate; Astute with TLAM can deal with it

To my mind we must try to incrementally improve the range of weapons the F35 can carry or we have made a huge investment in ships and aircraft and them severely limited their capability.

The choice of the F35b has been debated to death and is a done deal but it does limit the range of missions both because the aircraft has a shorter range that the alternatives and because the carrier will not have an air to air refueling capability. Will the ability to only operate V/STOL also impact on our ability to use drones going forward as well?

The limitations of only operating 12 aircraft and the difficulties of surging that number have also been discussed previously.

I laugh when the range issue is brought up

It's larger than the Harriers, larger than the SHornet. But one INCREDIBLY important reminder you need if you're calling the range of the B a serious problem is why the USN needs the range of the C. They're pivoting to the Pacific, they need as much range as they can get because of the geography of the area. We won't need it, our theatres will most probably be in the Med and the Gulf if we're going hot, so it's not a problem. It's my same philosophy for UCAV's, the USN wants carrier-bourne UCAVs because of the sheer size of the Pacific and it's more operationally flexible (and more important) to have them sea based rather than land based ( I hope i've got that right ). I'd rather see the RAF get a land based strike UCAV working and operational before we push money into anything like it for a carrier myself.

In a nutshell, for us the F35B's range is absolutely no problem at all. Since the Invincible class came in I don't think the RN had carrier-bourne AAR either, so why is it so crucial now?

The 12 carrier figure is the standard peacetime complement of fast jets, larger than any peacetime fixed wing component on any CVS. If we get involved in somewhere like Libya then we'll ferry cabs down to her where they can join the ship, it's the whole point of the Tailored Air Group ethos behind her; you want more fixed wing? Send 'em aboard! More Chinooks? Go Ahead! The point being is that if we get into a scenario where we really have to go at it, the fixed wing complement will surge, I can promise you that.

The AEW solution also inhibits us. The limited range, endurance and speed of the helicopter platform means it will only really be useful for providing an air picture over the carrier and the littoral. If you wanted to put the AEW nearer to/over the opposition air space that would not be practical with a helicopter. Therefore trying to get air dominance over opposition territory anywhere away from the littoral would be difficult due to now being able to provide on-station AEW for your fighters.

I dunno, having a Merlin with a pod which consists of 2 radars from an F35 back to back seems pretty good to me. Certainly (in terms of VTOL AEW) the absolute prime in the world.

At the moment it seems to me that we are spending a lot of money on a carrier capability that will be fine against third world adversaries but against any opposition with a half decent air force or SAM network we would need to either be in the second wave after the US and French had kicked in the door or be tasked with providing fleet air defence to protect the ships whilst others contested the air battle space away from the littoral coordinated by their fixed wing AEW assets.

So us with the 5th generation VLO aircraft capable carrier capability (available 24/7/365 I might add) would have to sit back to the French?

The F35B gives us the opportunity to be active in operations from day 1, that's a fact. I find it hard to imagine a conflict which would leave the Rafale to be perfectly survivable but the F35B to be swatted from the sky . . .

One other incredibly important detail is that the ASRAAM/AMRAAM/PWIV is when the jet reaches IOC, in other words when the RAF get hold of the first examples they know those will work from the jet. The UK wants SPEAR 3/Storm Shadow/Brimstone 2 integrated, it's just stumping up the money for it and right now that sort of money is going onto the Typhoon and rightly so.

 

[swerve]

ARMs target emitters via an onboard seeker. Some air forces now reckon that one can locate emitters well enough using offboard sensors to get a missile to the immediate vicinity, then use other onboard sensors such as IIR, or even just carry on to the point indicated by offboard sensors, thus rendering ARMs irrelevant.

The French attacked Gaddafi's forces in Libya before the air defences had been attacked, & France retired its ARMs some years ago.

 

[spsun100001]

ARMs target emitters via an onboard seeker. Some air forces now reckon that one can locate emitters well enough using offboard sensors to get a missile to the immediate vicinity, then use other onboard sensors such as IIR, or even just carry on to the point indicated by offboard sensors, thus rendering ARMs irrelevant.

The French attacked Gaddafi's forces in Libya before the air defences had been attacked, & France retired its ARMs some years ago.

France definitely had HARM in service when I last checked but I could well be out of date.

 

[swerve]

France? HARM? When was that bought? France had its own ARM (ARMAT), just as the UK (ALARM) does. I've never heard of France operating HARM.

 

[harryriedl]

France? HARM? When was that bought? France had its own ARM (ARMAT), just as the UK (ALARM) does. I've never heard of France operating HARM.

did the Mirage have HARM capability and using NATO stocks of HARM. Not sure about the Raf though I would have thought the older jet would have if only for the increased export potential

 

[kev 99]

Jane's are reporting that the UK could get main gate authority to order it's first squadron (14) of F35s by end of the year.

 

[WillS]

The RN has just posted some nice aerial shots of HMS Queen Elizabeth, looking almost complete.

https://www.facebook.com/royalnavy/photos_stream

 

[RobWilliams]

Indeed, cracking progress. The aft GTA unit + sponson was fitted a few days ago and the aft island is being shipped in July.

Not long now, not long at all. The sooner they start slapping on the grey paint the better IMO, getting a bit sick of the red now.

I just keep going back to this Youtube video

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqKsJbObjYE"]Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carrier - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[deepsixteen]

Indeed, cracking progress. The aft GTA unit + sponson was fitted a few days ago and the aft island is being shipped in July.

Not long now, not long at all. The sooner they start slapping on the grey paint the better IMO, getting a bit sick of the red now.

I just keep going back to this Youtube video

Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carrier - YouTube

Hi

New photos give a real sense of perspective on the size of the QE Class.
[ame="http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/8698643216/in/photostream/"]Aerial Images - April 15 | Flickr - Photo Sharing![/ame]

Deepsixteen

 

[swerve]

did the Mirage have HARM capability and using NATO stocks of HARM. Not sure about the Raf though I would have thought the older jet would have if only for the increased export potential

The USA was quite restrictive in who it would sell HARM to, & what it would allow HARM to be integrated on. I don't see how it could have made any Mirage or British aircraft more exportable.