The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
The USA was quite restrictive in who it would sell HARM to, & what it would allow HARM to be integrated on. I don't see how it could have made any Mirage or British aircraft more exportable.
I was thinking Israels Mirages and Taiwans M2000 both nations would have requirement and both were/are users of Mirage variants.

Exportability was more of a shot in the dark but the more stuff integrated tends to help with sales(of course not in every case)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Israels Mirage IIIs were air defence dedicated, & retired or soon to be retired when HARM came on the market, & ARMAT was in production when Taiwan bought its Mirage 2000s. If you mean Neshers & Kfirs - well, see below.

And there's still the issue of US restrictiveness with regard to exports & integration of HARM. Even if the USA would have allowed integration, would it have sold HARM to any potential new customers? I can't think of any Kfir customers who'd have been allowed to buy it.
 

Padfoot

New Member
In relation to the QE carriers, what is the 'detection range'(sorry don't know the technical term) of the Merlin AEW in relation to Hawkeye? I have read that it will be around 200km(half that of Hawkeye), though that was not from what you'd call an informed source.

Apologies if I have gone off topic.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not OT IMO at all mate

About the current Searchwater 2000 AEW radar pod, the only numbers i've ever seen have been over 85nm (160km+), how accurate is I don't know.

What I do know is the Vigilance solution has a much smaller pod mounted to each side of the airframe giving full 360 degree coverage, each containing an APG-81 AESA radar, the same that's in the F-35 so consider what that radar can do, i'll link the promotional video from the F-35 about it, but don't neccesarily think that the video represents 100% what we'd get.

I've attached images of both Merlin solutions, the first being the typical searchwater 2000 and the second being the vigilance based. The last is a cut away of the SW2000 Merlin to show the internals when the pod is lifted back inside the aircraft.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDke56vMiU"]F-35 JSF APG-81 AESA Radar - YouTube[/nomedia]

VTOL solutions always were going to be shorter ranged than aircraft like the E-2, but as far as VTOL solutions go, with Vigilance we will have the best aircraft of it's type flying from the carriers.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Not OT IMO at all mate

About the current Searchwater 2000 AEW radar pod, the only numbers i've ever seen have been over 85nm (160km+), how accurate is I don't know.

What I do know is the Vigilance solution has a much smaller pod mounted to each side of the airframe giving full 360 degree coverage, each containing an APG-81 AESA radar, the same that's in the F-35 so consider what that radar can do, i'll link the promotional video from the F-35 about it, but don't neccesarily think that the video represents 100% what we'd get.

I've attached images of both Merlin solutions, the first being the typical searchwater 2000 and the second being the vigilance based. The last is a cut away of the SW2000 Merlin to show the internals when the pod is lifted back inside the aircraft.

F-35 JSF APG-81 AESA Radar - YouTube

VTOL solutions always were going to be shorter ranged than aircraft like the E-2, but as far as VTOL solutions go, with Vigilance we will have the best aircraft of it's type flying from the carriers.
I am still really keen on V22 solution as it seemed the best combination on the STOVL carriers of range and ceiling a effective if extremely expensive for what it is. Im not sure if the V22 range so it might not be such a great solution if the loiter is less than Merlin though.

Liked the idea of the speed, ceiling ect.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'd think V22 is too expensive to buy and maintain for a small fleet - if UK SFOR do pick it up, then they'd need a few as well so perhaps there's scope to get COD, AEW and in flight refuelling done on a palletised format and maintain a common "purple" fleet of V22. I don't think the RN as a sole user is financially practical.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Agreed to all the above, I even doubt if there was a mixed fleet with special forces that there'd be a big enough fleet for it. They've ordered an additional 4 Wildcats onto the original order for special forces requirements giving an 8 strong fleet. They use the Chinook (7 Sqdn) for insertions and considering we're getting +14 of those, SF will get a boost in one way or another probably.

I can't really see SF going for it, or more likely, I can't see the Treasury *let* them go for it.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
I'd think V22 is too expensive to buy and maintain for a small fleet - if UK SFOR do pick it up, then they'd need a few as well so perhaps there's scope to get COD, AEW and in flight refuelling done on a palletised format and maintain a common "purple" fleet of V22. I don't think the RN as a sole user is financially practical.
I fully agree it too expensive to buy unless its more than just RN using it although I would be very interested to see the usage by IDF as especially as they will buying a small fleet I seem to remember its about 14 frames (not at all sure) which would be the right sort of numbers for RN carrier duties plus few extra for other tasks (VIP ect)
 

kev 99

Member
France have finally agreed to fund FASGW(H), brilliant news. Just hope we can get the work done in good time and flog some of these babies abroad.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
HMS Queen Elizabeth's aft island has left the construction hall

Queen Elizabeth

This is the second island of the Navy’s next-generation aircraft carrier emerging from the shed where it was built for the first time.

From this 753-tonne structure, flight deck operations on HMS Queen Elizabeth will be directed: fhis is Flyco – Flying Control, effectively the carrier’s equivalent of an airport control tower.

Workers at BAE’s Scotstoun yard on the north bank of the Clyde have completed the iconic structure; it’s now being prepared for its journey from Glasgow’s great artery to the rest of the ship, which stands more than two-thirds complete at Rosyth.

The forward island was installed in April after a journey from Portsmouth. It houses the ship’s bridge and 100 or so other compartments.

The aft island is slightly heavier and larger: 52m (170ft) long, 14m (46ft) wide and 31m (101ft 6in) high.

Inside are some 110 compartments, 1,000 pipes and 44km (27 miles – or just longer than a marathon) of cabling.

The section is due to be moved around Scotland by barge in mid-June and then fixed into place on the flight deck at the end of the month
The more interesting part of the island - the flyco station - isn't fitted onto the island, if you see the image on the RN's website, you can see the section where it should be marked out with red. If you had a big glass lump sticking out the side of it then there'd be issues when they lift it on because that's pretty much where the cables for Goliath (the crane at Rosyth) would attach to the yellow lifting rig.

That part will be added on at a later date, it's being made by Tex Special Projects Ltd, here's a link from '07

Suffolk firm clinches MOD deal - News - Ipswich Star

He sadi: “The initial phase of this £2.2million sub-contract confirms Tex as a serious player in the defence market as we have already supplied six other control rooms to MoD projects.”

Tex Special Projects is part of the Tex Group, which has been designing and building air traffic control rooms for the civil and military sectors worldwide for the past ten years.

The control room will be fitted with the largest glazed area ever used in a warship, made up of ten pieces over 3m in height and weighing in at 500kg a piece
A pretty hefty chunk of glass, i've attached 2 images. One being a recently (early April) arial shot of the ship (you really get a sense of her completion there) and one of the most recent lifts (early May); CB05b. Now she's her full length with really only a few sponson sections, a couple of lifts of her back end, aft island & skis jump & job's a good'un. All pictures courtesy of the ACA.

IIRC the dates for the aft island involve the lift being in July, but the ACA have been doing rather well in keeping ahead of shedule so could easily be sooner than that.

EDIT: I'm gunna link the ACA's flikr photosteam, a really comprehensive gallery of the arial images and other recent lifts like the aft GTA & SP07 upper & SP08 aft

http://www.flickr.com/photos/qeclasscarriers/
 

Indigo

New Member
Just a quick update on Astute from the RN website - good to see that Astute is now nearing the end of her trials and will be in full service soon, with Ambush later this year or early next year. I don't have enough post count to attach links yet so you will have to find it yourselves.

Now that we have the first one almost finished, the knowledge for finishing the follow on boats should help greatly.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
The sooner they get into service the better, it's a shame we only hear the negative press about these boats. Ambush is sometime next year I think, personally I don't see the RN accepting 2 Astutes by the end of the year, although this would then boost our SSN force back up to 7 rather than the 5 we've been trodding along at for a while

Astute

Britain's first new hunter-killer submarine in a generation is preparing to take her place on the front line as her final trials come to an end in the USA.

Faslane-based HMS Astute has been carrying out warm water and other trials in the Bahamas and off the Eastern Seaboard as she gears up for her first operational patrol towards the end of this year.

It’s the second stint of trials in the region for the first of seven nuclear-powered boats in the Astute-class; over the winter of 2011-12 the submarine was tested extensively in these same waters, including sparring with the USS New Mexico – a near-counterpart in the US Navy’s Silent Service.

This time around, Astute has focused on warm weather tests – sea temperatures of 25˚C, rather than the more usual 10˚C on the Clyde – and other capability trials ahead of her operational handover.
But here's the update I really wanted to see, the CO of Daring let slip a while ago that the ship would deploy next to the US west coast, and here's an article about it from the RN

HMS Daring goes global | Royal Navy

The air defence warship will demonstrate the Navy’s global reach during the nine-month deployment which includes contributing to maritime security in the Asia Pacific, conducting science and technology trials in the Pacific and representing the UK in Exercise Bersama Lima – part of the Five Power Defence Arrangement annual programme of exercises in the region.

The deployment will also allow Daring and her 190 crew to represent the UK at high-profile celebrations to mark the 100th anniversary of the Royal Australian Navy.

A series of port visits is also lined up for Daring to conduct regional Defence Engagement.
9 month deployment, you Aussies get to have a gander at her too. The "science and technology" trials are probably the BMD trials which were talked about earlier in the year with the Type 45. Can't wait to see some picture of this when it happens, the ship is due to depart on May 27th.

Also, here's something that could be pretty important with the design of the Type 26, MBDA and Lockheed Martin have signed an MoU to explore the potential of integrating MBDA products onto the Mk41 allowing them to be able to seek joint oppertunities. The first missile to undergo this testing will be CAMM.

Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles

<snip>

Lockheed Martin and MBDA plan to jointly demonstrate the launch of a CAMM missile from a Lockheed Martin MK 41 Vertical Launch System later in 2013.

Commenting on that event, the CEO of MBDA Antoine Bouvier said: “Possessing the broadest range of naval missiles available on the market, there is a strong logic for MBDA to join forces with Lockheed Martin whose vertical launch systems have a strong presence in the naval market. Working in concert, we will be able to offer greater choice to naval customers around the globe providing them with solutions optimized to their exact needs, which has always been MBDA’s priority.”
Could have a big impact on the RN, if they want TLAM enough and MBDA have already started the groundwork now about integrating European missiles onto the Mk41. Seems pretty quick though, a CAMM launch later in the year? The benefits of the cold launch method I presume, quick and easy. It'll be interesting to see how this develops, the main reason I always saw the UK going for the A70 is because all they'd get to use in it is TLAM pretty much. This sort of development could give us the required flexibility to get the Mk41.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
The sooner they get into service the better, it's a shame we only hear the negative press about these boats. Ambush is sometime next year I think, personally I don't see the RN accepting 2 Astutes by the end of the year, although this would then boost our SSN force back up to 7 rather than the 5 we've been trodding along at for a while

Astute



But here's the update I really wanted to see, the CO of Daring let slip a while ago that the ship would deploy next to the US west coast, and here's an article about it from the RN

HMS Daring goes global | Royal Navy



9 month deployment, you Aussies get to have a gander at her too. The "science and technology" trials are probably the BMD trials which were talked about earlier in the year with the Type 45. Can't wait to see some picture of this when it happens, the ship is due to depart on May 27th.

Also, here's something that could be pretty important with the design of the Type 26, MBDA and Lockheed Martin have signed an MoU to explore the potential of integrating MBDA products onto the Mk41 allowing them to be able to seek joint oppertunities. The first missile to undergo this testing will be CAMM.

Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles



Could have a big impact on the RN, if they want TLAM enough and MBDA have already started the groundwork now about integrating European missiles onto the Mk41. Seems pretty quick though, a CAMM launch later in the year? The benefits of the cold launch method I presume, quick and easy. It'll be interesting to see how this develops, the main reason I always saw the UK going for the A70 is because all they'd get to use in it is TLAM pretty much. This sort of development could give us the required flexibility to get the Mk41.
When I visited Dragon a few weeks ago a JO mentioned Daring world tour compared with their more run of the mill stuff in Arabia they mentioned a US and showing the flag. Also showed where the TLAM's would go and how straight forward it is for them to slot into it didn't look quite peerside but a short refit to add TLAM's (it seemed to me like they designed it for something like the old ABL to drop into space although the idea of A70's or MK41 is very interesting a perfectly possible in the space.

Agreed on the Astute a long rather horrible journey the first of class seems unlucky
 
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RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ah right, glad to hear. We've been told that there's been space allocated for strike length cells so it's good to hear it's actually true.

IMO first major refit; stick 'em in for TLAM! But that being said, it's incredibly refreshing to know that we've got that +16 growth capacity there for the future.

About Astute, the trouble is that the general public knows sweet FA about the Silent Service so newspapers can get away with posting stupid headlines. Like recently, Ambush was conducting trials and had to return to port, she was pictured with tugs alongside and some headline like "nuclear submarine suffers critical failure and is towed back to port", everything thinks 'oh man, these things suck, we're paying loads for junk etc etc' and nobody hears about the following main statement from the MOD about it being a minor hydraulic failure and she returned to power under her own power and the tugs are there because it's SOP.

Never really even got out of defence circles when she duelled with USS New Mexico AFAIK, the newest Virginia at the time and got good praise about the sonar capability on her.

I dunno, it's just annoying, they do so much good and are so effective about what we do except that it's expensive and doesn't work.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Ah right, glad to hear. We've been told that there's been space allocated for strike length cells so it's good to hear it's actually true.

IMO first major refit; stick 'em in for TLAM! But that being said, it's incredibly refreshing to know that we've got that +16 growth capacity there for the future.

About Astute, the trouble is that the general public knows sweet FA about the Silent Service so newspapers can get away with posting stupid headlines. Like recently, Ambush was conducting trials and had to return to port, she was pictured with tugs alongside and some headline like "nuclear submarine suffers critical failure and is towed back to port", everything thinks 'oh man, these things suck, we're paying loads for junk etc etc' and nobody hears about the following main statement from the MOD about it being a minor hydraulic failure and she returned to power under her own power and the tugs are there because it's SOP.

Never really even got out of defence circles when she duelled with USS New Mexico AFAIK, the newest Virginia at the time and got good praise about the sonar capability on her.

I dunno, it's just annoying, they do so much good and are so effective about what we do except that it's expensive and doesn't work.
They use the space as an extra gym but everything is wired up and ready to rock from flooring and points for electric feed when funds are their and their looked liked their was room for strike plus extra a true plug and play when the funds are available it really impressed me compared with B3 T42(Manchester) which I was on previously and seemed much better designed and felt bigger than Lusty with wide corridors and much more logical CIC.

True it is the silent service but Astute has had rotten luck even if it is the first of class, the shooting in particular along with the very troublesome sea trials.

Knowing what little I know of RN subs it will be effective and very impressive capability over the Trafalgar class
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ah right, glad to hear. We've been told that there's been space allocated for strike length cells so it's good to hear it's actually true.

IMO first major refit; stick 'em in for TLAM! But that being said, it's incredibly refreshing to know that we've got that +16 growth capacity there for the future.

About Astute, the trouble is that the general public knows sweet FA about the Silent Service so newspapers can get away with posting stupid headlines. Like recently, Ambush was conducting trials and had to return to port, she was pictured with tugs alongside and some headline like "nuclear submarine suffers critical failure and is towed back to port", everything thinks 'oh man, these things suck, we're paying loads for junk etc etc' and nobody hears about the following main statement from the MOD about it being a minor hydraulic failure and she returned to power under her own power and the tugs are there because it's SOP.

Never really even got out of defence circles when she duelled with USS New Mexico AFAIK, the newest Virginia at the time and got good praise about the sonar capability on her.

I dunno, it's just annoying, they do so much good and are so effective about what we do except that it's expensive and doesn't work.
Welcome to what could be called "the Collins Effect". Just be glad you don't have Ian McPhedran writing articles about your submarines. :p
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
You've got it easy, we've got an entire newspaper which opposes anything nuclear and don't really like defence much either, so put those together ;)

But i'm glad about the Daring info, that the space is there and isn't currently occupied by something important. note: I get that fitness is important at sea, when I was on Dragon they said apart from gym kit the only running they could do is circles on the flight deck, but it's the *extra* gym rather than *the* gym.

Nice bit of info too, right now there's a MCM exercise in the Gulf and the RN are using HMS Dragon + RFA Cardigan Bay + 4 forward based MCM vessels. But the interesting thing is about Cardigan Bay, in the attached picture (from navynews) Cardigan Bay has the same hangar setup as HMAS Choules.

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/7695
 

1805

New Member
Ah right, glad to hear. We've been told that there's been space allocated for strike length cells so it's good to hear it's actually true.

IMO first major refit; stick 'em in for TLAM! But that being said, it's incredibly refreshing to know that we've got that +16 growth capacity there for the future.
If they just fitted a couple of ships, it would surely be quite a modest cost in comparison to the capability increase, particularly when we are likely to remain a bit light on SSNs, for the next few years.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
We'd have to go out and buy more missiles to make more silos cost effective - right now, we've got about sixty TLAM in the inventory.

I'd love to see someone make that decision but realistically I think it more hangs on what land attack is fitted for Type 26 - someone must have some ideas, and I'd like to see something sitting between TLAM and a Harpoon class missile.

Something cheap and numerous enough with a reach to punch holes in the ground some way off the coast line.
 

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
*cough* Perseus *cough* ;)

It's one of those things we'll find out in 2015; if we're getting Mk41 or A70.

  • Get A70 and buy MdCN (Sea-Shadow or something like that)
  • Get A70 and pay for TLAM integration
  • Get Mk41 and buy TLAM
 
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