Flanker Export Thread
- Thread starter Haavarla
- Start date
The next step should be drafting the contract for China to buy the Su-35S from Russia. Unfortunately, no details are provided.
http://m.rbth.ru/business_news/2013/02/20/china_intends_to_buy_russias_sukhoi_su-35_23068.html
China intends to buy Russia's Sukhoi Su-35
17:31 February 20, 2013 Interfax
China has signed an intergovernmental agreement with Russia to purchase Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighters. "Consistent with our understanding with China, we actually signed an intergovernmental agreement this January to supply Su-35 jets to China," Federal Military-Technical Cooperation Service Deputy Director Vyacheslav Dzirkaln told Interfax-AVBN at the IDEX 2013 arms show in Abu Dhabi. He heads the Russian delegation to the show.
http://m.rbth.ru/business_news/2013/02/20/china_intends_to_buy_russias_sukhoi_su-35_23068.html
China intends to buy Russia's Sukhoi Su-35
17:31 February 20, 2013 Interfax
China has signed an intergovernmental agreement with Russia to purchase Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighters. "Consistent with our understanding with China, we actually signed an intergovernmental agreement this January to supply Su-35 jets to China," Federal Military-Technical Cooperation Service Deputy Director Vyacheslav Dzirkaln told Interfax-AVBN at the IDEX 2013 arms show in Abu Dhabi. He heads the Russian delegation to the show.
Russian sources claim that the Su-35S contract with China will not involve any sort of licensed assembly in China, only delivery of complete fighters from Russia. The total number of fighters is supposed to be 48. There is some speculation that China is interested in the engines, and may attempt to copy them to use on their future fighter jet designs.
Lenta.ru:
Lenta.ru:
Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #144
Pretty much as expected about the Mittens.
Bangladesh Plans to Buy 24 Russian Jet Trainers | World | RIA Novosti
But what about the rest of the deal?
Any Mig-29M2 or Su-27SKM in this deal?
Bangladesh Plans to Buy 24 Russian Jet Trainers | World | RIA Novosti
But what about the rest of the deal?
Any Mig-29M2 or Su-27SKM in this deal?
Nothing is actually solid. All the sources claim that Bangladesh is considering buying the Yak-130s. The money could still end up being spent on additional BTR-80s (they already got some in 2011), or Mi-17s, or anything really.
Lenta.ru:
Бангладеш приобретает учебные Ñамолеты Як-130*—*ОÐ*УЖИЕ Ð*ОССИИ, Информационное агентÑтво
Arms-tass claims there is a secret list of equipment Bangladesh is buying, and that the only part currently publicly disclosed is the Yak-130 deal. However given that they only have 1 bil USD credit to play with, 24 Yak-130s with associated spares, maintenance, munitions, training, etc. could eat most of that money.
ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ
My guess is that unless Bangladesh can put down some of their own money for this stuff, they won't be able to afford Flankers after a Yak-130 buy.
Also on the Chinese Flanker deal, Russian sources uniformly claim that a "рамочное соглашение" was signed. It's not an actual contract, but it's a general agreement about quantities, types, and price ranges.
Lenta.ru:
Бангладеш приобретает учебные Ñамолеты Як-130*—*ОÐ*УЖИЕ Ð*ОССИИ, Информационное агентÑтво
Arms-tass claims there is a secret list of equipment Bangladesh is buying, and that the only part currently publicly disclosed is the Yak-130 deal. However given that they only have 1 bil USD credit to play with, 24 Yak-130s with associated spares, maintenance, munitions, training, etc. could eat most of that money.
ÀÐÌÑ-ÒÀÑÑ
My guess is that unless Bangladesh can put down some of their own money for this stuff, they won't be able to afford Flankers after a Yak-130 buy.
Also on the Chinese Flanker deal, Russian sources uniformly claim that a "рамочное соглашение" was signed. It's not an actual contract, but it's a general agreement about quantities, types, and price ranges.
Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #146
About the Su-35 to China, it could be called a 'letter of intent', right?
Makes me think of all the hurdles(negotiation) about copyright, of its systems and engines..
PLAAF will be given a certain numbers of Engines, possible a few extra(spares) 117S engines with this deal.
But you can be sure there will be a support deal as well when these engines need a major overhaul.
My 2 cent, they will get shipped back to Russia for overhaul.
Two reasons for this, one is copyright, two is knowhow.
What do PLAAF get out of this, a sudden increase in their Flanker capability.
And a sneak-peak for their Engineers.. call it for inspiration purpose if nothing else.
If this deal go through, i think it is a very good chance for a follow-on order as well.
Both China and Russia are signaling a closer Co-operation on a numbers of given defence and trade area, i think its in both their interest to play fair here.. in short, a win-win situation for both.
Makes me think of all the hurdles(negotiation) about copyright, of its systems and engines..
PLAAF will be given a certain numbers of Engines, possible a few extra(spares) 117S engines with this deal.
But you can be sure there will be a support deal as well when these engines need a major overhaul.
My 2 cent, they will get shipped back to Russia for overhaul.
Two reasons for this, one is copyright, two is knowhow.
What do PLAAF get out of this, a sudden increase in their Flanker capability.
And a sneak-peak for their Engineers.. call it for inspiration purpose if nothing else.
If this deal go through, i think it is a very good chance for a follow-on order as well.
Both China and Russia are signaling a closer Co-operation on a numbers of given defence and trade area, i think its in both their interest to play fair here.. in short, a win-win situation for both.
Not really. Chinese Su-27 clones are licensed, from what I understand. As long as they don't sell them to third parties, they're fine.
China J 15 Fighter Jet: Chinese Officials Defend New Fighter As Chinese Original, But Questions Remain
This was what I was thinking about. Kind of old news but wouldn't this be a copy?
This was what I was thinking about. Kind of old news but wouldn't this be a copy?
Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #150
We do not know is this is the case.
It looks like China and Russia have entered a brighter road these days.
Perhaps they allready has reached a decission on J-15 as well.
Don't think Russia would just sell 24 Su-35S for its value alone..
Its too small a figure, i bet Russia have high hopes for a follow-up deal once PLAAF get to fly their new toys.
And that they feel the copyright stamp would be honored.
It looks like China and Russia have entered a brighter road these days.
Perhaps they allready has reached a decission on J-15 as well.
Don't think Russia would just sell 24 Su-35S for its value alone..
Its too small a figure, i bet Russia have high hopes for a follow-up deal once PLAAF get to fly their new toys.
And that they feel the copyright stamp would be honored.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Without looking on the exact deal on SU-27 licensec, its not clear how far changes on J-15 that can be called then as China design thus can be sold overseal independently without Russian license.
Just example, Indonesia bought type 209 subs from ROK, without ROK need permissions from German to sell and provide license assitance to Indonesia shipyard on manufacturing them. In short ROK agreement on 209 was such that their manufactured 209 alreadynconsidered their design, and they can exported independently without German permissions.
That what I believe simmilar situations with J-15. China seems fell that they have made enough differentiations on J-15 compared to original flankers design, that they can exported if they want independently.
Just example, Indonesia bought type 209 subs from ROK, without ROK need permissions from German to sell and provide license assitance to Indonesia shipyard on manufacturing them. In short ROK agreement on 209 was such that their manufactured 209 alreadynconsidered their design, and they can exported independently without German permissions.
That what I believe simmilar situations with J-15. China seems fell that they have made enough differentiations on J-15 compared to original flankers design, that they can exported if they want independently.
the road runner
Active Member
I am of the impression that China uses AL-31 engines in J-15 Aircraft?
I know they use AL-31 in their J-10 fighters.
I would have assumed Russia applied pressure on China to either stop copying/producing Russian design planes OR Russia will stop the supply of AL-31 engines??
@Ananda i would assume royalties are paid to Germany threw ROK for 209's
I know they use AL-31 in their J-10 fighters.
I would have assumed Russia applied pressure on China to either stop copying/producing Russian design planes OR Russia will stop the supply of AL-31 engines??
@Ananda i would assume royalties are paid to Germany threw ROK for 209's
I doubt they'd be able to export the J-15 without Russia's permission. Especially since they need Russian engines for them. I'm also not sure what the licensing situation is there.
Whitehead, the article you cited doesn't state that Russia claims copyright violations. I don't see what your point is.
Air Force Brat
Member
The Air Force Magazine Daily Report stated that 4 diesel/electric subs were part of the package??? Brat
I rather doubt China will be exporting the J-15 or J-15s any time soon, in fact on the Sino Defense, there is some speculation that the Al-31 and WS-10 are both used on Flanker derivatives??
Our own news just posted this on Defense Talk News, so it seems like this will happen? Brat
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
I'm not sure on that. But logically, DMSE still pay royalties for any 209 they manufactured. However don't know if they pay royalties for exporting them.
What quite surprise me, PAL got license to manufactured 209 from Korea, and not from Germany. This indicated the Korean got full license on 209, including (well you can call it) sub-licensing the design to third parties.
Perhaps that kind of agrement the Chinese had on regards to SU-27 or J-15. The German off course not entirely out of the deal, since the 209 engines still come from German. WhatnI'm getting at, if China had simmilar deal on Flankers as Korean got on 209, the (China), should had independent move on their versions of Flankers too.
Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #156
I'm pretty sure the J-11 is not allowed for export. Cause that would just mess up Sukhoi own fighter markets, hense totaly ilogic move.
About the engines. China recent ordered up some 900 more AL-31FN for their J-10 fleet. Not sure if they still inmort AL-31F for their J-11 fleet though..
FEDERAL STATE UNITARY ENTERPRISE «GAS-TURBINE ENGINEERING RESEARCH AND PRODUCTION CENTER «SALUT» | NEWS | NEWS | VSUE GTERPC Salut concluded a contract with Chinese Air Force for supply of spare parts for aircraft engines.
http://www.umpo.ru/en/Page382.aspx
About the engines. China recent ordered up some 900 more AL-31FN for their J-10 fleet. Not sure if they still inmort AL-31F for their J-11 fleet though..
FEDERAL STATE UNITARY ENTERPRISE «GAS-TURBINE ENGINEERING RESEARCH AND PRODUCTION CENTER «SALUT» | NEWS | NEWS | VSUE GTERPC Salut concluded a contract with Chinese Air Force for supply of spare parts for aircraft engines.
http://www.umpo.ru/en/Page382.aspx
Air Force Brat
Member
Well there had been quite a dust-up over the Chinese Flankers, and no the Russians were not happy, but now everybody is making nice, and figuring out their next move, if in fact the F-117s are an ancillary part of this deal, they will end up on the J-20, and the Su-35 sale will recapitalize the T-50, IMHO. This way everybody wins and the T-50 and J-20 will both move forward in a very optimal way, the Su-35s will go to the Air Force leaving Shenyang to concentrate on the J-15 and J-15S, and to move forward on J-16s and J-31s, theres just no downside to this, especially in light of the fact that they will once again present a unified threat to the US and our allies...... Brat
There are a lot of current and former military officers who are willing to voice opinions for the media that have political value and relevance, without accurately reflecting the military-technical situation. I would be careful about your sources.
To give you an example I ran into an article by a Russian officer, who claimed that the Iveco Lynx was a bad vehicle, compared to the BMP-3. Do I need to explain how moronic that is?
This is why I like this forum. I was also under the assumption that the Chinese J-11/J-15 were a direct copy of the Flanker. They do look alike and I remember reading that the Russians were presumably ticked at this. As you pointed out, no official sources were quoted.
Regarding Lynx vs BMP-3, well, if you put one in front of the other, the BMP-3 wins ^^