Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[MrConservative]

Sounds like Otago may have busted something (hopefully not her crew). Or are the predicted weather / ice conditions just too much for her (in high summer)? Or is the Navy simply not going since the DoC mission is no longer happening? It's difficult to pierce the usual journalistic fog in that article. Hopefully NZDF or Navy will clarify things with a press statement.

Certainly the latter story brings the CDF's & the Def Min's comments last month about being able to meet all of the commitments into stark relief.

I guess Mr. McCully is fronting this because Dr. Coleman is currently overseas.

Chis73

Maybe the CDF and DefMin would get a bit more respect by speaking what most people know about these ships. They are dogs. They would offer more to humanity as 2014 Great Wall pick up trucks. They symbolize all that is wrong with the NZDF and Defence Ministry. Harsh words I know - but it is about time they faced up to the dishonesty of their spin - this move along all is well nothing to see here BS.

The whole project was a farce. It is about time a spade was called a spade. There has been a lack of confidence in these vessels right from the design development stages when the budget parameters became known. Everyone who was responsible for this has long departed the scene. Only Goff is around that indirectly was involved in this and he has become too old and pointless to sack.

This priceless coment was given to me by an ex RNZN CPO and one has to be of a certain age 45+ to get.

"The protector class are a Claytons ship. A patrol ship you have when you are not having a patrol ship."

Sums it up really.

BTW the infamous Claytons was a 1970's alcohol free fake whiskey that failed miserably in the marketplace and has become a sort of byword for farce and failure.

Seriously though it seems that NZ has ended up abdicating any form of patrol responsibility for the zone south of Campbell. It is going to be open season down there just as it was 10 years ago.

What I want to see is the government invite an outside Review of the NZDF and Def Ministry. I would want very experinced former 3 or 4 stars from US, OZ, Canada, UK, Singapore, a Scando country like Denmark and Norway to come in and give the place a thoroughly good going over and then write and publicly present and debate its findings and recommendations. That is the sort of intervention that I think is now required.

It is obvious that we need new patrol vessels.

 

[StevoJH]

It is obvious that we need new patrol vessels.

Only if your Government is willing to spend the money to do it properly this time.

Sounds like the problems were due to the contractors trying to match the budget as much as possible, would be interesting to see the internal documentation to see what if any warnings about the project were made by your Navy, BAe Australia and any outside auditors involved.

 

[MrConservative]

Only if your Government is willing to spend the money to do it properly this time.

Sounds like the problems were due to the contractors trying to match the budget as much as possible, would be interesting to see the internal documentation to see what if any warnings about the project were made by your Navy, BAe Australia and any outside auditors involved.

Hopefully they have finally learnt the lesson that el cheapo is el fubar. I dont think they will be in a rush to solve this. They have very much a silo mentality at present - total focus on economic bottomlines and the CHCH rebuild. Effectively Defence has been told to bugger off for 5 years.

As for the doxs on the protector "scandal" which it is in my view - the fact that the parties went to mediation and had non disclosure clauses would make general public release a high hurdle for it to get over.

 

[Volkodav]

Actually makes the original plan to buy an additional pair of ANZACs seem reasonable and I wonder how much a modified, ice strengthened Endurance class LST would have cost. IPV's I'm not sure, how are they going?

 

[recce.k1]

Sounds like Otago may have busted something (hopefully not her crew). Or are the predicted weather / ice conditions just too much for her (in high summer)? Or is the Navy simply not going since the DoC mission is no longer happening? It's difficult to pierce the usual journalistic fog in that article. Hopefully NZDF or Navy will clarify things with a press statement.

There are some "revealing" insights in the latest Navy Today about both engineering and boarding issues that HMNZS Otago encountered, which may go some way in explaining parts of the media report you quoted?
http://navy.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/navy-today/nt171web.pdf
In particular pages 16 & 17 onwards .....

It's also not clear whether another reason could be due to the escalation between the Japanese whalers and Sea Sheppard (ramming vessels at the moment), that perhaps NZG is being cautious about upsetting the Japanese Govt by becoming directly involved or whether RNZN is rightly cautious in not wanting to become involved in chasing the two fleets around (as in due to lack of SOP's for such encounters perhaps and the further risk to OPV & crew in even more challenging conditions to those encountered on the routine patrols, which were bad enough in itself)?

 

[MrConservative]

Actually makes the original plan to buy an additional pair of ANZACs seem reasonable and I wonder how much a modified, ice strengthened Endurance class LST would have cost. IPV's I'm not sure, how are they going?

Funny you should say that Volk because some years ago I remember Capt Ian Bradley, a former Leander driver and former ACNS, when interviewed by Larry Williams on NewstalkZB say that very thing. IIRC he said that the Protectors would too short, too unstable, not robust, top heavy and that nothing less than a ANZAC if length belonged down there (sub antartic) in a Naval role. I think that is part of the culture of problems these days - the new school does not take on board the lessons and wisdom of the old school.

The IPV's? Well half of them are tied up because many of our rank and file sailors have voted with there feet and left.

There were 20 odd proposals for the MRV. I think ST Marine threw in a LST derivative and the original Sealift Review of 2000 had a Endurance Class (With the capacity to lift a Battalion Group mind you) at then NZ$400m.

If the right ships were bought in the first place and not the el cheapo junk we got - would we be having this bad a time with morale in the RNZN. Half the fleet tied up? Requiring our Aussie mates to cover our manpower shortfalls? Ships all requiring significant and time wasting rectification? I'd argue that it would be a hell of a lot less. I'd argue that the lure of big money in WA mines would not be so attractive if level of pride in the fleet was the same as a generation ago. Note: I am not saying pride in the sense of doing ones service - I am saying pride in the wider sense of a ship and I dont mean keeping it clean but on an intrinsic level.

 

[Todjaeger]

It's also not clear whether another reason could be due to the escalation between the Japanese whalers and Sea Sheppard (ramming vessels at the moment), that perhaps NZG is being cautious about upsetting the Japanese Govt by becoming directly involved or whether RNZN is rightly cautious in not wanting to become involved in chasing the two fleets around (as in due to lack of SOP's for such encounters perhaps and the further risk to OPV & crew in even more challenging conditions to those encountered on the routine patrols, which were bad enough in itself)?

It also might be that the Gov't in concerned about how the US will take things as well. Given the recent US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals here, which in a nutshell accuses Sea Shepherd of engaging in acts of piracy, it may well be that Gov't does not wish for the RNZN to aid Japan in whaling, or be called upon to engage, board, sink or seize Sea Shepherd vessels.

One of the things which I am awaiting is for Sea Shepherd to end up being deemed a criminal organization in the US. Once that happens, then many sources of US funding will dry up.

-Cheers

 

[old faithful]

Although, I really don't like whaling, and In our waters, find it tragic that our Govt is not sending a strong message to the whaling organization, I find Sea Shepherds actions even more appalling, and their actions totally illegal, terrorism. If I was the Capitan of a ship under attack by Sea Shepherd, I would call for the nearest countries assistance. they are pirates, and should be treated as such.

I can't believe that our former (at one time) deputy Prime Minister Bob Brown, from the Green party, actually applauded,on national TV, the actions of the "hero,s" on the sea shepherd. A ship that has rammed and tried to inflict injuries on the crew of the whaling ship. At times like that, I am ashamed of Australian politicians, and media for not bringing him to task over those comments.

 

[Lucasnz]

Interesting that the CO of the Otago disputes the comments on Otago's capability.

Captain defends Otago's capabilities in ice

With regards to Mr Bradley's comments I think they need to be taken in the context of the time they were made etc - narrow beams etc. That said he was an excellent ship driver.

 

[chis73]

I think the missing piece of the puzzle is the unusually high amount of sea ice in the Antarctic this year. According to the National Snow & Ice Data Center (link - see halfway down the page) the Antarctic sea ice extent was 5.8 million sq km in January. The annual minimum seems to be about 3 million sq km in March (see here for background). In January, it was more than 2 standard deviations above the mean for this time of year (which is normally the minimum sea ice period). My dodgy stats says that the probability of that much ice is about 2.5% (ie. a 1 in 40 year event).

NIWA's vessel Tangaroa is down there presently (see here) and has had to alter her plans due to the sea ice. Tangaroa is a similar size & ice-class as Otago. I suppose if Otago can't get to the allocated fishing zone, then neither can the fishing vessels.

I guess nobody told Mr McCully the reason why Otago cancelled her voyage, and the Herald journalist as usual went for the doctor. Not sure what happened to the sub-antarctic DoC mission mentioned in the NZDF media release though (perhaps Otago finished it early?). Good on the ODT for following this story up.

Otago is currently docked in Dunedin and will hold an open ship tomorrow afternoon (following a parade in the morning).

Chis73

 

[MrConservative]

Interesting that the CO of the Otago disputes the comments on Otago's capability.

Captain defends Otago's capabilities in ice

With regards to Mr Bradley's comments I think they need to be taken in the context of the time they were made etc - narrow beams etc. That said he was an excellent ship driver.

Bradley got into hot water at some stage I cannot remember what it was about and stopped him getting to Commodore rank. His daughter Sarah used to front Good Morning on TV. I remember Bradley did make observations regarding beam between the Anzacs and the Leanders. He came across as an expert - someone who new his bones 30 years in the service.

I do expect the Otago CO to follow the party line though. He is just a lad of 32 and no doubt doesn't want to rock the boat. Excuse the bad pun. Would not help his excellent career prospects if too much criticism was made.

The extra ice this year is interesting Chris. (What happened to global warming or is it now climate change? Has that finished). The irony of a Herald journalist of all people to write this stuff.

Too much Ice this year, not wanting to upset the Japanese, avoiding pirates, MFAT getting all soft, .... what in blazers is going on. The response either operational or political is not good enough.

 

[Volkodav]

Bradley got into hot water at some stage I cannot remember what it was about and stopped him getting to Commodore rank. His daughter Sarah used to front Good Morning on TV. I remember Bradley did make observations regarding beam between the Anzacs and the Leanders. He came across as an expert - someone who new his bones 30 years in the service.

I do expect the Otago CO to follow the party line though. He is just a lad of 32 and no doubt doesn't want to rock the boat. Excuse the bad pun. Would not help his excellent career prospects if too much criticism was made.

The extra ice this year is interesting Chris. (What happened to global warming or is it now climate change? Has that finished). The irony of a Herald journalist of all people to write this stuff.

Too much Ice this year, not wanting to upset the Japanese, avoiding pirates, MFAT getting all soft, .... what in blazers is going on. The response either operational or political is not good enough.

A knowledgeable bloke (can't remember his name) explained climate change in this way; the ocean is a giant heat sink, the more energy (heat) you pump into it the more energy it needs to get rid of i.e. extreme weather conditions. Makes sense to me and probably also to the people in usually dry areas who are getting flooded out every second year, then again I am no expert.

 

[ngatimozart]

A knowledgeable bloke (can't remember his name) explained climate change in this way; the ocean is a giant heat sink, the more energy (heat) you pump into it the more energy it needs to get rid of i.e. extreme weather conditions. Makes sense to me and probably also to the people in usually dry areas who are getting flooded out every second year, then again I am no expert.

And the other important thing is that as the ocean heats up, the water volume increases because it's density decreases with temperature above 4 degrees C. This is due to the higher energy state of the electrons within the H2O. With a larger volume comes a larger surface area and an increased ability to absorb more heat from sun and to emit more heat, transfering heat to the air and creating updrafts as the heat rises. The greater the heat transfer in the updraft, the greater the temperature gradient in the air which is an air pressure gradient so air moves from high pressure to low pressure areas. The greater the differential the greater the velocity and mass of the movement. This along with the coriolis effect creates the air circulation effect and as it circulates faster it utilises the energy contained in the heat transferred from the ocean. Yes, the rises in sea surface temperatures, overall ocean temperature, ocean volume and sea surface area will lead to more extreme weather events. There is a school of thought that this cycle could also trigger the next ice age which would be triggered in Antarctica.

 

[Volkodav]

New Zealand Issues Request for Frigate Combat Systems
Defence News Mar. 18, 2013 - 03:51PM By NICK LEE-FRAMPTON
New Zealand Issues Request for Frigate Combat Systems | Defense News | defensenews.com

The RFT for combat system upgrades for the two RNZN ANZAC class frigates, of paticular note is what these upgrades are intended to acheive:

"The threats the system should be able to deal with include supersonic aircraft and missiles, plus “suicide light aircraft, model aircraft (wingspan 1m)” and rocket-propelled grenades guided by lasers."​

 

[kiwi in exile]

New Zealand Issues Request for Frigate Combat Systems
Defence News Mar. 18, 2013 - 03:51PM By NICK LEE-FRAMPTON
New Zealand Issues Request for Frigate Combat Systems | Defense News | defensenews.com

more info here:
RFT - ANZAC Frigate Systems Upgrade [Ministry of Defence NZ]

 

[kiwi in exile]

more info here:
RFT - ANZAC Frigate Systems Upgrade [Ministry of Defence NZ]

Overall an impressive list of capabilities. Dissapointing to see no mention of antiship missiles. Seems strange to have a frigate in this day and age with no anti-ship missiles, especially with increasing naval proliferation around asia-pacific.

If/when we get the p8 will they even be armed?
as far as i know NZDF hasn't acquired any air launched weapons since we lost the ACF and that was some time ago. Surely the mavericks/iron bombs are getting near their end of life. Our torpedos too. wasn't there a plan to upgrade these a few years ago that was never followed through.

Phil Goff made some interesting comments recently about the p3 upgrades, saying stuff like there are no foreign subs in our waters and if there were, they would be unlikely to cause trouble. (what happens if the do Phil?) If Labour gets in he will probably be Minister of Defence.
He also states that there have been no subs in NZ waters in the last 35 years.
The Stuff article then goes on to document sub activity in NZ water, including german u-boats and japanese sub launched recon flights in WW2, and 15 subs detected since 1970.
Defence Force Orions To Check For Submarines | Stuff.co.nz

My POV is that decent air and surface launched torpedoes/ASMs are a must if the NZ navy/air force is to be any more than a coast guard. Doesn't look like either side of politics has any interest though.

 

[weegee]

Overall an impressive list of capabilities. Dissapointing to see no mention of antiship missiles. Seems strange to have a frigate in this day and age with no anti-ship missiles, especially with increasing naval proliferation around asia-pacific.

If/when we get the p8 will they even be armed?
as far as i know NZDF hasn't acquired any air launched weapons since we lost the ACF and that was some time ago. Surely the mavericks/iron bombs are getting near their end of life. Our torpedos too. wasn't there a plan to upgrade these a few years ago that was never followed through.

Phil Goff made some interesting comments recently about the p3 upgrades, saying stuff like there are no foreign subs in our waters and if there were, they would be unlikely to cause trouble. (what happens if the do Phil?) If Labour gets in he will probably be Minister of Defence.
He also states that there have been no subs in NZ waters in the last 35 years.
The Stuff article then goes on to document sub activity in NZ water, including german u-boats and japanese sub launched recon flights in WW2, and 15 subs detected since 1970.
Defence Force Orions To Check For Submarines | Stuff.co.nz

My POV is that decent air and surface launched torpedoes/ASMs are a must if the NZ navy/air force is to be any more than a coast guard. Doesn't look like either side of politics has any interest though.

So what happens if Subs are detected?? Say China likes the looks of your Antartic region and decide they will have it for their own? Does the NZDF they rely on the RAAF and the RAN to wave our small stick and try to sort it out? It does seem fairly sad to have the opinion that nothing has happened in the past so don't worry about that particular capability for the future. If defence forces around the world believed like that they would have not evolved past sticks and stones! Someone somewhere has something better than what you have, and one day they might use it, so its best you arm yourself with with something that will give you a fighting chance.

 

[MrConservative]

Phil Goff made some interesting comments recently about the p3 upgrades, saying stuff like there are no foreign subs in our waters and if there were, they would be unlikely to cause trouble. (what happens if the do Phil?) If Labour gets in he will probably be Minister of Defence.
He also states that there have been no subs in NZ waters in the last 35 years.

Goffs comments were not interesting - they were the comments of an idiot. Labour are against frigate upgrades and any modernisation of the P3. What does that tell us about their policy settings and where Defence will go under a Shearer/Norman Government? I would say even more of a withdrawl from regional engagement in an operational sense and capability. It will be frankly lala land.

This notion of the defence of "our waters" being the rationale for a defence policy and planning. Such one dimensional undergraduate tosh. I am hoping that this is not a serious policy view and Goffs comments are just the usual automatic contrarian viewpoint that Labour specialises in these days. (My view is that the truth is both - automatic contrarian views and their defence outlook.) Six years in MFAT and three as DefMin and Goff still cannot get his head around strategic first principles. To think he probably has more grasp on the NatSec/Def/Int field than anyone else within the political left is disturbing.

 

[ngatimozart]

So what happens if Subs are detected?? Say China likes the looks of your Antartic region and decide they will have it for their own? Does the NZDF they rely on the RAAF and the RAN to wave our small stick and try to sort it out? It does seem fairly sad to have the opinion that nothing has happened in the past so don't worry about that particular capability for the future. If defence forces around the world believed like that they would have not evolved past sticks and stones! Someone somewhere has something better than what you have, and one day they might use it, so its best you arm yourself with with something that will give you a fighting chance.

It's a legacy from the 1998 - 2008 Labour govt under the cabal of Clark, Goff, Burton & Mallard. That lot got rid of the RNZAF Air Combat Force, removed the ASW component from the P3s and didn't believe in the need for ASW on the two ANZAC frigates. Goff is Labours current Foreign Affairs & Defence spokesperson and that is still official Labour party policy. He recently said that it is of no concern if foreign subs were in our around NZ waters as they didn't cause any trouble. That's the kind of thinking we've had to deal with since 1999. The current govt claims it's pro defence but it's too stingy and mean spirited to pay for it.

 

[King Wally]

To be honest NZ is setting itself into a dangerous position defence wise. Its an attitude that seams to be eating away at capability like a termite does to an old timber shack in the woods.

And its beyond Navy too, the NZ air force has been watered down to dangerous levels as well, I could fly over to NZ in a WWII spitfire and probably gun down the airforce single handedly which is scarey.

I do understand the budget constraints and geographic protection NZ enjoys but they really need to whip their politicians into shape, and ensure some elements have capability, for example if they decide to follow this path of no fast jets in the airforce then at least ensure your navy has some high quality frigates with Air Defence / ASW and Land Strike ability etc. You shouldn't base your defence strength on how things look in the good times, you should in my opinion anyway also think about the SHTF crisis posibilities and how you could cope when things run off the rails.