Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Hull-mounted sonar and LWT's which are past their use by date IIRC. There have been plans to replace the Mk 46 torpedoes but I do not believe that has commenced yet, and the towed sonar array was deleted years ago. The Seasprites themselves were not configured for much ASW ops, instead being intended for ASuW.
It definitely leaves the RNZN and the Kiwi SLOC vulnerable.
-Cheers
Nicely put and our pollies don't get it. They either don't understand the concept of ASW or refuse to acknowledge the concept. At present NZDFs greatest threat is not China or some other foreign force, but Kiwi pollies.
I've found the following items in relation to the Torpedo issue. Australian support for the Mk46 ended in 2009 with a 5 year certification life ending in 2014. The navy was looking at an interim period from around 2012 to bridge the gap between declining serviceability and introduction of the new system by purchasing surplus USN stock. This report to parliament is rather good reading. See Here
Overall Defence seems to realize there going to be a interim period and appears to have taken steps to mitigate the issue. What I find more interesting is the lack of any further mention of the Orion Air to Surface weapons mentioned in the 2008 LTDP.
I don't think the RNZN Anzacs ever had a towed array sonar, they just had the provision for one (ie cable & winches). Even that was removed in 2004 according to the article from the Dominion Post below. The RAN trialled the Kariwara towed array many years ago (maybe on HMAS Anzac?), but I don't think they carry it routinely.
Recent RNZN frigates have always walked the fine line between frigate & colonial gunboat. I suppose the closest thing we have ever had to a first-rate ASW frigate was HMNZS Otago in the early 1960's (a Rothesay Type 12). The Leanders weren't too bad for ASW when new (but were getting pretty outdated by the late 1970s).
NZ did quite a bit of basic sonar research back in the 60's & 70's - even had specialist vessels for sonar experiments ie Tui & later Resolution.
Chis73
That particular govt didn't like things that went bang so it doesn'tsurprise me. strange no mention since of P3K ASu weapons but I do know that they have been practising their bombing skills with live weapons drops of Mk82s. I thought at one stage the P3s were fitted out for Harpoons but that was back in early 80s. I wonder if they are still current on torpedos. I also wonder how much it would take to have the P3K2s fitted out to operate the AGM65 Maverick missile. They are used on the Seasprites and were on the A4Ks, so we do have a stock of them.
With reference to the Seasprite replacements did the RAN Seasprites have the dipping sonar? If so and we get them I would hope that our stingy govt doesn't excluded that capability. I read in latest Minister of Defence speech that the NZG is very keen on getting the 11 ex RAN Seasprites so they must've passed muster. http://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/speech-defence-industry-association-conference I reckon they know that if they don't get these they are up for a NZ$1 billion plus to get equivalent number in new MOTS aircraft.
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I think they also had an experimental SOSUS in the Hauraki Gulf at one part too during the late 1970s early 1980s. I heard stories when I was in back then. Seems a real shame that all that work has been for nothing.
With regard to the Dom Post story I would think that the order to reduce the sonar capability came from the ministerial level because the P3K sonar ability was scrapped on ministerial and Cabinet orders.
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kiwi in exile
Active Member
How long until the mavericks meet end-of-life? A US Orion fired a Maverick in Libyan coast guard vessel which subsequently beached.
US Navy P-3C, USAF A-10 and USS Barry Engage Libyan Vessels | United States Africa Command
Personally, I'd like to see our MPA's carry an ASuM with a bit more range/punch.
Was there an Australian plan to manufacture MU90 torpedoes?
US Navy P-3C, USAF A-10 and USS Barry Engage Libyan Vessels | United States Africa Command
Personally, I'd like to see our MPA's carry an ASuM with a bit more range/punch.
Was there an Australian plan to manufacture MU90 torpedoes?
I was having a cast around for ASuMs a while back and taking into account the stinginess of the NZG I came to conclusion that the AGM65 Maverick was only reasonable expectation for NZDF. Not sure about the MU90 Torpedo being manufactured in Australia.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I do not remember either, but I also doubt whether they would be a good fit. Part of the problem IIRC is that they are quite expensive, due to the high potential speed to catch Alfa-class SSN's. The US comtemporary Mk 50 LWT has a similar issue, which lead to the development of the Mk 54 which has the sensor package of the Mk 50, but the propulsion system of the Mk 46, again IIRC.
-Cheers
kiwi in exile
Active Member
The Maverick is good for close support and small boats, but if the SHTF how much deterrent value does it have? In my mind relying on the Maverick for ASW is like boxing with short arms. AFAIK it's range is 20-30kms which puts the MPA within the range of enemy SAMs. Standoff range ASMs are a better deterrent. Aside from SAR, EEZ patrol, our MPAs should serve as a deterrent, especially given that we don't have a ACF. Some may say the likelihood of NZ MPAs having to fire a missile in anger in this way is pretty unlikley, but being seen as having a credible defence is important in terms of our allies as much as any potential, future enemies. If only the pollies would see things this way.
The problem witth the current ASuW missile are that they r basically updated versions of 1970's missiles. Maybe waiting until the next generation might not be a bad idea, given initial cost and life span, in order to obtain a viable weapon.
kiwi in exile
Active Member
Te mana en-route to South Korea
New Zealand Frigate Heading To Korean Trouble Zone... | Stuff.co.nz
Te mana is currently en-route to the south china sea and then south korea to undertake some pre-planned exercises.
Hopefully things calm down a bit over there before they arrive.
New Zealand Frigate Heading To Korean Trouble Zone... | Stuff.co.nz
Te mana is currently en-route to the south china sea and then south korea to undertake some pre-planned exercises.
Hopefully things calm down a bit over there before they arrive.
King Wally
Active Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the beleif North Korea actually had a fair number of subs that lurk around their waters. Knowing NK most are probably in a bad way though and outdated.
Still its certainly a serious mission to be heading up there at present. Good luck to my Kiwi buddies!
Seasprite helicopter project approved
Hot off the press:
Seasprite helicopter project approved | Scoop News
10 airframes to be purchased - 2 as spares
Maverick to be replaced with Penguin
First ones arrive late 2014, fully in service 2016
Cost: $147 million NZD ($120 USD) (plus missles, simulator, ship mods)
To be operated with a 3-man crew
Hot off the press:
Seasprite helicopter project approved | Scoop News
10 airframes to be purchased - 2 as spares
Maverick to be replaced with Penguin
First ones arrive late 2014, fully in service 2016
Cost: $147 million NZD ($120 USD) (plus missles, simulator, ship mods)
To be operated with a 3-man crew
A big step up vs ship targets but it does remove the ability to attack land-based targets unless they continue with Maverick in some way, or integrate something like Hellfire
I don't think anyone currently uses Penguin with the P-3
Stuff have the total project cost at $242 million NZD including the simulator and missiles :Navy buys new Seasprite helicopters | Stuff.co.nz
t68
Well-Known Member
I’d say it feasible but mostly an unrealistic option for the NZDF to convert some airframes to ARH. The US Army once planned a variant of Sea Sprite called the UH-2 Tomahawk, but if the NZDF ever needs an Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter either a Bell Kiowa Warrior or Boeing AH-6I would be ideal, another possibility is in the future will NH Industries make an armed gunship version of the NH-90 similar to a Blackhawk DAP.
Kaman H-2 "Tomahawk" helicopter - development history, photos, technical data
Boeing's AH-6i helicopter gunship revives and improves a 35 year old concept
http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/aircraft/kiowa.html
