Canada's next Jet Fighter?

J

jack412

Active Member
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
jack412 said:
Gee, the comp is rigged against the 4th gen
Final Industry Engagement Request: Capability, Production and Supportability Information Questionnaire - National Fighter Procurement Secretariat (NFPS) - Military and Marine Procurement - Buying and Selling - PWGSC
The 2030+ time horizon is characterized by the proliferation of emerging technologies including:
•Fighter Aircraft such as PAK-FA armed with a mix of advanced multi-spectral high off-boresight weapons.
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ROFLMAO. So we have systems in place which can already deal with that threat and yet the 4th gens are the solution?

give me a break.
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Vivendi said:
It seems Dassault is seriously considering to enter the competition?

Dassault Says Canada Mulling Rafale Warplane as JSF Costs Soar - Bloomberg

This is a big surprise, at least to me!

Dassault was the first company to leave the Norwegian competition. I wonder what makes them think they have a better chance in Canada than they did in Norway?

Quebec perhaps?

Or is there something else going on in the background?
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I can't see this happening

there are known examples of how this will cause grief in trying to integrate french systems into US platforms.

I'm not talking about technological difficulties, but issues where the US will not let some companies from some countries get access to critical material due to sensitivity issues, ie ITARs related etc...

The Canadians wouldn't want that kind of hurt coming their way as the above issue impacts upon more than purchasing just the combat platform.

If they wanted to have less grief re above, then Typhoon would be an easier path.
 
V

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
gf0012-aust said:
I can't see this happening

there are known examples of how this will cause grief in trying to integrate french systems into US platforms.

I'm not talking about technological difficulties, but issues where the US will not let some companies from some countries get access to critical material due to sensitivity issues, ie ITARs related etc...

The Canadians wouldn't want that kind of hurt coming their way as the above issue impacts upon more than purchasing just the combat platform.

If they wanted to have less grief re above, then Typhoon would be an easier path.
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Excellent points, and that makes the mystery of Dassault considering to participate even more intriguing... If they cannot win, then why participate?

What is the process in Canada? Will they have some kind of shortlisting? If yes, perhaps that's why they consider participating?

For different reasons I can imagine that Rafale would make it to a shortlist whereas some of the competition would not -- but would a shortlisting really be worth the costs and efforts of participating?

Or could there be something else?
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Vivendi said:
Excellent points, and that makes the mystery of Dassault considering to participate even more intriguing... If they cannot win, then why participate?

What is the process in Canada? Will they have some kind of shortlisting? If yes, perhaps that's why they consider participating?

For different reasons I can imagine that Rafale would make it to a shortlist whereas some of the competition would not -- but would a shortlisting really be worth the costs and efforts of participating?

Or could there be something else?
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Quite frankly I struggle to see any benefit in it for the French.

OTOH, the French are not silly, and they make very very good product in a number of areas

I cannot for the life of me understand however why anyone in Dassault would have run with this.

Canada, like the UK and Aust, has some higher capabilities that would be put at risk and which have nothing to do with selecting their next gen combat aircraft

If they don't go 5th Gen, then going with SHornet (or even F15) would not jeopardise existing issues and keep them in a very important tech seat - a Euro selection knocks them off the seats of some very very important existing capabilities, let alone future tech streams that are far more critical to the overall Canadian Armed Forces force structure and development
 
C

colay

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
Quite frankly I struggle to see any benefit in it for the French.

OTOH, the French are not silly, and they make very very good product in a number of areas

I cannot for the life of me understand however why anyone in Dassault would have run with this.

Canada, like the UK and Aust, has some higher capabilities that would be put at risk and which have nothing to do with selecting their next gen combat aircraft

If they don't go 5th Gen, then going with SHornet (or even F15) would not jeopardise existing issues and keep them in a very important tech seat - a Euro selection knocks them off the seats of some very very important existing capabilities, let alone future tech streams that are far more critical to the overall Canadian Armed Forces force structure and development
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Can this be the reason why the Rafale is not being considered to equip Denmark's new fighter fleet?
 
V

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
gf0012-aust said:
Quite frankly I struggle to see any benefit in it for the French.
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My thinking was that if they feel very confident that they will make the shortlist, and at the same time they feel quite confident that some of their main competitors will not make it to the shortlist, it will make Rafale look better and could perhaps be used for marketing purposes ("we made it to the finals unlike some of our main competitors"); another thing that makes this competition somewhat different is that this is an arctic country, thus being shortlisted here is different from being shortlisted in Brazil and Singapore, but I agree it is not a very convincing argument.

Anybody else who can suggest an explanation to this riddle?

Keep in mind that Dassault after getting burned in Korea and Singapore have been very selective about where to compete; they did not compete in Norway, Denmark, Holland, Japan, etc. So why on earth in Canada?
 
C

colay

New Member
Vivendi said:
Keep in mind that Dassault after getting burned in Korea and Singapore have been very selective about where to compete; they did not compete in Norway, Denmark, Holland, Japan, etc. So why on earth in Canada?
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They did not compete or they were not invited to compete?
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
colay said:
Can this be the reason why the Rafale is not being considered to equip Denmark's new fighter fleet?
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Any country that has a deep military technology relationship with the US, and esp at the platform, weapons, ewarfare, xxINT level will put their access and involvement with the US to a degree of risk.

Canada, UK, Aust especially as we all have accelerated access to US technology thats not subject to the same degree of initial State Dept oversight. The US President changed our status a few years back

Other countries currently tied in with sensitive US mil projects (as do the Danes) would need to take a very very considered view if they were to start bringing in and wanting to integrate other countries systems that might need to link in with US sourced systems

eg countries that share tech with China don't help themselves in these scenarios
 
V

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
colay said:
They did not compete or they were not invited to compete?
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Japan:

Dassault Aviation declined to participate with its Rafale, and Saab’s single-engine JAS-39 Gripen NG wasn’t a contender, but Eurofighter campaigned hard.
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Japan’s Next Fighters: F-35 Wins The F-X Competition

Norway:

Storting in 2008 or 2009 to decide which fighter that may replace the current F-16. The battle between potential suppliers of the future 48 aircraft is already underway. Norway participates as a partner in the development of the Joint Strike Fighter, and partial funding for parallel development of the Eurofighter. These two, as well as the French Rafale, considered by the Ministry of Defence as the three candidates to the new fighter.
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(google translate)
Forsvarets forum* » Jeg flyr alene 2
Rafale later dropped out, and I think it was because they decided to withdraw however there is a possibility that they were told by the Norwegian MoD that they would waste their time... Anyway, Eurofighter later pulled out.
 
G

GeeDubayou

New Member
In my opinion....this F-35 program, is a complete and total waste of time. What we need, is an aircraft that's not gonna cost billions of dollars, and currently with the Harper Administration skirting about what the cost of this aircraft is gonna cost us, and not allowing the public to know what's going on.
We currently have nothing to show for this aircraft, I was reading an article awhile back, that the communications system would not be able to function in the arctic, where, this aircraft is supposed to be in operation.

This program, has started to runaway, and what we need is an aircraft that can be delivered and can actually do what its suppposed to do.
 
OPSSG

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
GeeDubayou said:
In my opinion....this F-35 program, is a complete and total waste of time.

...I was reading an article awhile back, that the communications system would not be able to function in the arctic, where, this aircraft is supposed to be in operation.

...This program, has started to runaway, and what we need is an aircraft that can be delivered and can actually do what its suppposed to do
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Who cares about your opinion?

Given the lack of substance, references and your inability to understand the basic issues in your factually deficient post. Critique the JSF program all you like but don't do it in a factually deficient manner. Read up and cite some credible sources.

It is only fair to ask you to take a few days to read Air Power 101 for New Members, as it covers some of the air power and F-35 basics you seek to discuss. Read it before you post again. It would improve the quality of this present discussion.

We have had so many news cycles of regurgitating the same misinformation you post. Our forum members are now bored with debunking what you (as a new member) have to say. Don't be lazy and take some time to educate yourself before you continue posting.
 
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Cadredave

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
S

SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
It’s all in the timing.

By the time Canada gets the F35 in any serious quantity, it will be at Block 4 which includes SATCOM.

Until then they will continue to use the CF-18s they have now for that duty.

Here was the Canadian schedule before they hit the reset button.

View attachment 5885
 
B

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
GeeDubayou said:
In my opinion....this F-35 program, is a complete and total waste of time. What we need, is an aircraft that's not gonna cost billions of dollars, and currently with the Harper Administration skirting about what the cost of this aircraft is gonna cost us, and not allowing the public to know what's going on.
We currently have nothing to show for this aircraft, I was reading an article awhile back, that the communications system would not be able to function in the arctic, where, this aircraft is supposed to be in operation.

This program, has started to runaway, and what we need is an aircraft that can be delivered and can actually do what its suppposed to do.
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Mamma mia, here we go again...
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
the road runner said:
Yep time to post what is needed by all Air forces around the world.
Buy 10 and get 1 free.Sorry mods thought you guys needed a laugh

NEW ! 2012 Remote Controlled Ducted F18 bumblebee fighter Electric Plane + 8G TF | eBay
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Looks really cool!

If you can get 10 of us here to buy one each, who get's the extra one free?

I know, maybe we can donate the extra one to APA to do some more air combat modelling against the F35!

(My apologies to the Mods too, sorry!)
 
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