Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[King Wally]

I love that guys take on it. And I have to agree that if they are going to screw up its going to be someone else that discovers the worst of the issues before us. Guess thats a nice benifit of the gov pushing our delivery schedule back. Hopefully the Aussie dollar is still strong at 2020, would be a shame to see us back to 75c in the dollar US right when we need to sign a massive cheque.

 

[Trackmaster]

I love that guys take on it. And I have to agree that if they are going to screw up its going to be someone else that discovers the worst of the issues before us. Guess thats a nice benifit of the gov pushing our delivery schedule back. Hopefully the Aussie dollar is still strong at 2020, would be a shame to see us back to 75c in the dollar US right when we need to sign a massive cheque.

Superhornet buy confirmed?

Boeing|Australia|Pentagon|Sale|Billion

 

[Milne Bay]

Superhornet buy confirmed?

Boeing|Australia|Pentagon|Sale|Billion

Not sure if that is confirmation of a sale or just part of the notification process.
12 more Growlers?
Didn't see that coming. Was expecting 24 single seat.
Interesting ..............

 

[Trackmaster]

Not sure if that is confirmation of a sale or just part of the notification process.
12 more Growlers?
Didn't see that coming. Was expecting 24 single seat.
Interesting ..............

Agreed...confusing.
Surely they wouldn't go for 12 spankers....with 12 wired ones at Amberley?
If that is the case, somewhat of a waste of $$$.
The announcements at Avalon in the next few days could be of interest.

 

[protoplasm]

Superhornet buy confirmed?

Boeing|Australia|Pentagon|Sale|Billion

Not quite, just a step in the process. DoD notifies Congress of the potential FMS sale, we (ADF) can commit to the sale if Congress approves of DoD selling to us.

 

[Milne Bay]

Agreed...confusing.
Surely they wouldn't go for 12 spankers....with 12 wired ones at Amberley?
If that is the case, somewhat of a waste of $$$.
The announcements at Avalon in the next few days could be of interest.

If it goes ahead as announced, it would be the clearest indication that the government has settled on a mixed force for the long term.
One doesn't acquire 24 Growlers as interim aircraft until the F-35's come on stream.
They will be part of RAAF orbat for a long time methinks.

 

[King Wally]

I had a feeling this was what was going to eventuate.

Pick up 12 or 24 extra supers/growlers and then push back the F-35's till the early 2020's.

Hey look on the upside the F-35 is going to be very mature, less bugs and per unit cost should be lower. I also have a lot of confidence in the Supers/Growlers, I honestly think they are a very very good aircraft and would make for a fine element to a mixed fleet moving forward.

 

[John Newman]

Below is the link to the DSCA site, complete with the details of what the Goverment has requested:

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2013/Australia_13-05.pdf

It goes into a lot of detail, 12 F/A-18E/F, 12 EA-18G, 54 engines, 35 radar systems, etc, etc.

All for approx $3.7Billion, but there is something missing out of the list and that is the jamming pods, etc, for the 12 new Growlers mentioned. Below is the link for the Growler Modification kits from May last year:

http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2012/Australia_12-27.pdf

Total cost for the kits was $1.7Billion, brings both projects to a total of about $5.4Billion.

I would assume that if the purchase does go ahead, the total cost would actually decrease due to not having to pull the 12 'pre-wired' F's from service and modify them to Growlers.

Yes some money will have been wasted on the 'pre-wired' airframes, but that will probably be offset with obtaining 12 new builds, and I suppose it also means that if in the future we needed to have more Growlers or need attrition replacements, then the 'pre-wired' airframes could be used.

It's also interesting that, apart from the 12G's mentioned, the request mentions 'E/F', does this indicate a 'mix' of E's and F's?

As Milne Bay said he was expecting 24 single seaters, I was assuming a mix of maybe, 18 E's, to replace one of the Classic Sqn's, and probably 6F's, to be used as trainers for 1sqn, the Growler Sqn and the replaced Classic Sqn.

Or maybe it will be 12 F's, otherwise we will end up with more types and 'sub' types, eg, E's, F's, G's and eventually F35A's too.

But if this does go ahead (I'd still like to see the full F35A purchase go ahead, but it appears that may not be the case), it probably makes sense to buy new Growlers and not have to worry about pulling the 12 airframes from service that were going to be converted.

From memory, the plan announced last year, for the conversion of the first 6 Growlers wasn't due for a number of years yet and the conversion of the final 6 wasn't going to happen till the first F35A Sqn came into service, eg the early 2020's.

Be interesting to see what the 'plan' is when eventually announced!

 

[ngatimozart]

Not sure if that is confirmation of a sale or just part of the notification process.
12 more Growlers?
Didn't see that coming. Was expecting 24 single seat.
Interesting ..............

It is not a confirmation of a sale. It is part of the process required if a sale is to go through. This is link to the actual Defense security Cooperation Agency news release. http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2013/Australia_13-05.pdf

 

[Trackmaster]

It is not a confirmation of a sale. It is part of the process required if a sale is to go through. This is link to the actual Defense security Cooperation Agency news release. http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2013/Australia_13-05.pdf

While not a 'black and white' confirmation, in my opinion this is the strongest possible pointer to a sale going through.

In the past, announcements such as this have always resulted in a confirming media statement from our political masters.

What are the basing options? Will they all end up at Amberley?

 

[John Newman]

While not a 'black and white' confirmation, in my opinion this is the strongest possible pointer to a sale going through.

In the past, announcements such as this have always resulted in a confirming media statement from our political masters.

What are the basing options? Will they all end up at Amberley?

It's not a confirmation (well not yet), but now at least we know the mix of aircraft sought.

As far as basing goes, Amberley would probably start to get a bit crowded to add another 24 aircraft, currently there are the C17's, KC30A's and the two Super Hornet Sqn's (No 6 Sqn to become the Growler Sqn) at Amberley.

This purchase (if it goes ahead) is supposed to be about not letting a capability gap occur, which means replacing Classic Hornets.

Maybe the way to go would be for the Classic Hornets of Tindal NT based No 75 Sqn be replaced by Shornets.

Relocate those Classics to Williamstown NSW to be used in a larger 'pool' of airframes for Nos 3 & 77 Sqns and No 2 OCU.

To me that would be logical way to do it.

EDIT:

I forget to say, 2OCU would probably need to have about 6 of the Super Hornets added to its fleet for training or 'another' training squadron would have to be created, and that's where this all starts to get a bit messy!!

 

[King Wally]

It's not a confirmation (well not yet), but now at least we know the mix of aircraft sought.

As far as basing goes, Amberley would probably start to get a bit crowded to add another 24 aircraft, currently there are the C17's, KC30A's and the two Super Hornet Sqn's (No 6 Sqn to become the Growler Sqn) at Amberley.

This purchase (if it goes ahead) is supposed to be about not letting a capability gap occur, which means replacing Classic Hornets.

Maybe the way to go would be for the Classic Hornets of Tindal NT based No 75 Sqn be replaced by Shornets.

Relocate those Classics to Williamstown NSW to be used in a larger 'pool' of airframes for Nos 3 & 77 Sqns and No 2 OCU.

To me that would be logical way to do it.

Didn't 75 Sqn see active service in Iraq? You would imagine a tour like that could have left the classic hornets used a little worse for wear and front of the line when it came to replacement.

Regardless theres something reasuring about the NT based folks getting their mits on the best possible gear. Afterall they are pretty well the only Aussie Air base I could imagine ever needing to scramble a real world mission in a hurry if the shit ever did hit the fan to our north.

 

[John Newman]

Didn't 75 Sqn see active service in Iraq? You would imagine a tour like that could have left the classic hornets used a little worse for wear and front of the line when it came to replacement.

Regardless theres something reasuring about the NT based folks getting their mits on the best possible gear. Afterall they are pretty well the only Aussie Air base I could imagine ever needing to scramble a real world mission in a hurry if the shit ever did hit the fan to our north.

If I remember correctly, the actual 'airframes' used in Iraq were drawn from all the squadrons, and in any event, I'm also pretty certain that over time airframes actually move around the Squadrons and 2OCU too.

I don't really think that 75 Sqn's Classics are anymore 'used' that the rest of the fleet.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I would imagine that a cohort of additional Growlers would end up at Willy,

 

[jack412]

From what I've been told, our classic hornets are being air houred on their G life, A2A and A2G place different G loads and this is being spread across the fleet.

Buying an extra 12 Growlers to give a future 24 makes some sense to me. In the intrim a 12xG and 36xF fleet. later the 12 already wired can be converted and the 24 SH can go via the original plan of looking at it when we have 75 F-35, to decide if we go to 100, it leaves some options open

 

[John Newman]

I would imagine that a cohort of additional Growlers would end up at Willy,

GF,

Yes, having Growlers based at Williamstown with the Wedgetails is probably very logical.

This possible purchase and the changes to the fast jet fleet 'mix' will probably bring up a number of questions as to what is appropriate basing for the eventual various types and sub-types.

I'm interested, in your 'read' of the DSCA notification on the possible acquisition of 12 new build Growlers, would they be in addition to the 12 F's that are planned to be converted?, or instead of, at least for this point in time?

The reason that I thought they may be 'instead of' is because this notification doesn't specifically mention any additional electronic warfare pods, I know that's just an assumption on my part.

And also, going back to the reason for the possible purchase of an additional 24 airframes, again I assume, is supposed to be about avoiding a capability gap by replacing the most worm of the Classics.

Yes I know, assuming can make an ass out of me, but....

Interested in your opinion.

Cheers,

John

 

[south]

Seems a bit strange if you do the maths. Doesn't make sense to get 24 growlers... USN is only getting ~114? to cover USN and USAF needs. Which means the RAAF having 24 is ~20% of the world fleet to support less than 5% of US fighter numbers. You can do the math but it isn't balanced IMHO...

 

[jack412]

South, my take on it is that it's going to be used as a joint us/au asset which we are buying, which I base on..the air force didn't ask for them and solely a gov decission..the USMC which are going to be here don't have Growler capability on their LHA..on the larger picture, an available SQD of Growlers in the south asia/pacific is of strategic significance to the US and our neighbours

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Seems a bit strange if you do the maths. Doesn't make sense to get 24 growlers... USN is only getting ~114? to cover USN and USAF needs. Which means the RAAF having 24 is ~20% of the world fleet to support less than 5% of US fighter numbers. You can do the math but it isn't balanced IMHO...

My first thought was the 12 built as EA-18Gs would be in place of converting the 12 second lot F/A-18Fs. Which would probably be cost neutral compared to buying a second batch of 24 F/A-18E/Fs and converting the 12 pre wired F/A-18Fs to EA-18G. With the added benefit of not having to take these 12 F/A-18Fs out of the force to be rebuilt. Which is pretty important considering the Super Hornets were purchased to provide realiable flying hours until the force can recap on the F-35.

Second thought is if we have a force of 24 EA-18Gs its because the RAAF is going to use them for more than SEAD/DEAD and in particular the COIN role of having a fast shooter ELINT and fast airborne CIED ECM platform.

 

[John Newman]

Seems a bit strange if you do the maths. Doesn't make sense to get 24 growlers... USN is only getting ~114? to cover USN and USAF needs. Which means the RAAF having 24 is ~20% of the world fleet to support less than 5% of US fighter numbers. You can do the math but it isn't balanced IMHO...

Yes it does look unbalanced when you put in those terms.

That's why I'm assuming that the intent to purchase the 12 new Growlers mentioned in the DSCA notification is 'instead' of upgrading the 'pre wired' Shornets, but it leaves the option to upgrade, some or all or not, at a later date if necessary.

Makes sense to leave the 24 Shornets we have in service and add the new aircraft, 12 more Shornets and 12 Growlers to the fleet, rather than pulling aircraft out of service, modify and then put them back in service.

That's of course if this purchase does go ahead.