Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[RegR]

Is'nt the whole reason the ex-RAN seasprites are not currently in RAN service is because they could not get them to work to their standards so if anything we would be aligning the Internationals more to our standards with maybe slight modifications (probably cheaper the better), so not nesscessarily focussed on any great new avionics/missile suite but more a numerical improvement in terms of availability, attrition and spare parts.

11 slightly used sprites to provide a base amount of around 6-7 is still better then 5 overused sprites at full strength, whats inside may just be a bonus if any.

 

[chis73]

Well, if you wanted Hellfire, then a laser rangefinder/designator would be needed. The latest versions of the AAQ-22 have one. Not sure about the AAQ-27, the source I have says that space for a laser rangefinder was reserved as a growth option. The older AAQ-16 came with a laser at one point. I'm struggling to find anyone that uses AAQ-22 or AAQ-27 and Hellfire together presently. Most maritime Hellfire users have the AAS-44 system (Seahawk) or the AAQ-30 (AH-1Z). Perhaps not difficult to integrate, but doesn't appear to have been done.

I agree with RegR, the main attractions for the ex-RAN Seasprites are:
a) they're cheap
b) there's a simulator
c) there's enough airframes to properly meet our future fleet requirements
d) a glass cockpit

In Htbrst's scenario, you would have to upgrade the NZ Seasprites to (I) standard - otherwise I guess you would need to build a new simulator. There would also be no extra airframes available. I suspect you would be more likely to walk away from the Seasprite and go shopping for something else. Perhaps keep the Seasprites as is, and use them only for OPV work until they die, cannibalising 1-2 of the 5 for spares.

I see the Navy Personnel situation has made the front page of the Herald today:

Cobbers keep navy afloat - National - NZ Herald News

So, 2 IPVs & 1 OPV have been tied up for the last 7 months. Could also add to that Canterbury (under repair), and Resolution (sold off). At least the full extent of the problem is being acknowledged publicly now. And, Oh yes, Thanks Australia!

Chis73

 

[ngatimozart]

I see the Navy Personnel situation has made the front page of the Herald today:

Cobbers keep navy afloat - National - NZ Herald News

So, 2 IPVs & 1 OPV have been tied up for the last 7 months. Could also add to that Canterbury (under repair), and Resolution (sold off). At least the full extent of the problem is being acknowledged publicly now. And, Oh yes, Thanks Australia!

Chis73

The RAN ratings serving on RNZN ships was announced 16/11/2012 in the joint AU-NZ Defence Ministers statement. It stated that because the evolution of RNZN ratings serving on RAN ships worked so well, in 2013 RAN ratings would serve on RNZN ships. The RAN has it's own crewing problems with two ANZAC frigates being unmanned and separate sub crewing issues. However, standfast the above statement, it doesn't absolve the NZG from any responsibility for the RNZN crewing crisis and wider NZDF funding crisis, because it is the NZGs policy of reducing funding to NZDF that has created this crisis.

 

[LRate]

The Aussies have been crewing RNZN ships for few weeks now, I noticed the article made no mention to Endeavours ANZAC crew.
The sharing of crew in small numbers is nothing new with the annual ANZAC exchange ,Last year 3 RNZN sailors deployed on HMAS Melbourne to contribute CTF 150 in the Gulf.
The RNZN crewing problems started with the previous Labour NZG which introduced MRS which cut allowances and base pay rates the current NZG is only starting to sort out .
The IPV tied up have other issues apart from crewing but thats what you get for a project for seven ships within a $500 million budget.

 

[mattyem]

The Aussies have been crewing RNZN ships for few weeks now, I noticed the article made no mention to Endeavours ANZAC crew.
The sharing of crew in small numbers is nothing new with the annual ANZAC exchange ,Last year 3 RNZN sailors deployed on HMAS Melbourne to contribute CTF 150 in the Gulf.
The RNZN crewing problems started with the previous Labour NZG which introduced MRS which cut allowances and base pay rates the current NZG is only starting to sort out .
The IPV tied up have other issues apart from crewing but thats what you get for a project for seven ships within a $500 million budget.

Im serving on the big easy at the moment (Endeavour) and have been working alongside our 11 RAN sailors. The big difference is that while we have been having exchanges with our Aussie brothers for years, these sailors are in core billets on the ship not just attached for a 'jolly' at sea. These sailors are running parts of ship and managing sailors as they would back in Aussie. It truly is a first.

For endeavor, 11 sailors nearly makes up a quarter of the ships company!

 

[Volkodav]

Im serving on the big easy at the moment (Endeavour) and have been working alongside our 11 RAN sailors. The big difference is that while we have been having exchanges with our Aussie brothers for years, these sailors are in core billets on the ship not just attached for a 'jolly' at sea. These sailors are running parts of ship and managing sailors as they would back in Aussie. It truly is a first.

For endeavor, 11 sailors nearly makes up a quarter of the ships company!

Well we would have some to spare as Success is an oxymoron at the moment. Better to keep them occupied doing what they are trained to do, even if it is in someone elses ship, than to have them leave.

 

[mattyem]

Well we would have some to spare as Success is an oxymoron at the moment. Better to keep them occupied doing what they are trained to do, even if it is in someone elses ship, than to have them leave.

The stokers and bosuns we have are from success, not too sure about the other branches

 

[KiwiRob]

What does a stoker do these days, since they don't have boilers to stoke anymore?

 

[ngatimozart]

What does a stoker do these days, since they don't have boilers to stoke anymore?

They are marine mechanical engineers or similiar and still dodgy (I was in the Seamans Branch). They have everything to do with ships propulsion and greenies are still the ships weapons and electrical.

 

[mattyem]

They are marine mechanical engineers or similiar and still dodgy (I was in the Seamans Branch). They have everything to do with ships propulsion and greenies are still the ships weapons and electrical.

I operate and maintain a diesel and waste heat fired boiler, boilers are still alive and well in the fleet. Stokers have also taken over the electrical side of it too. We have both propulsion engineers and electrical engineers in the branch.

Greenies are weapons/radars and comms pretty much.

Dodgy days are more behind us with the technology about these days and the increased accountability placed on individual personnel.

 

[ngatimozart]

I operate and maintain a diesel and waste heat fired boiler, boilers are still alive and well in the fleet. Stokers have also taken over the electrical side of it too. We have both propulsion engineers and electrical engineers in the branch.

Greenies are weapons/radars and comms pretty much.

Dodgy days are more behind us with the technology about these days and the increased accountability placed on individual personnel.

I was going to put a smilie after the word "dodgy" but they don't seem to work for me. Stokers have always been dodgy and I mean it in a humourous pussers context. It's part of their nature. It's like sailors and alcohol on a run ashore - the two are mutually inclusive. :drunk1

 

[Lucasnz]

I operate and maintain a diesel and waste heat fired boiler, boilers are still alive and well in the fleet. Stokers have also taken over the electrical side of it too. We have both propulsion engineers and electrical engineers in the branch.

Greenies are weapons/radars and comms pretty much.

Dodgy days are more behind us with the technology about these days and the increased accountability placed on individual personnel.

I won't comment on the dodgy I knew a few other people besides stokers that were dodgy. Interestingly none of them were gunners.

I'm curious about about the change in techs. It seems to me that MT(P) and MT(L) are expected be able to deal with a wider range of emergencies in their section at the AB level independently of support at an earlier stage (Say 12 months at rank) compared to say 10-15 years ago. Would that be a fair assumption or am I missing something.

 

[mattyem]

I won't comment on the dodgy I knew a few other people besides stokers that were dodgy. Interestingly none of them were gunners.

I'm curious about about the change in techs. It seems to me that MT(P) and MT(L) are expected be able to deal with a wider range of emergencies in their section at the AB level independently of support at an earlier stage (Say 12 months at rank) compared to say 10-15 years ago. Would that be a fair assumption or am I missing something.

An Able Technical rate with 12 months seniority is generally very competent. The AB's I have in my part of ship with that experience are virtually managing themselves and equipment to a very high standard. At that level they are watch keeping on the plant so have been trained in all conceivable breakdowns and emergencies that can occur, and deal with them by themselves to a high standard and until higher help arrives.

 

[ngatimozart]

The little navy that couldn't

Article in todays NZ Herald about crewing woes in the RNZN. The little navy that couldn't - National - NZ Herald News It sheets home blame to mismanagement of the civilianisation program which is a good call, but that in itself is in response to NZG financial policies that create funding shortfalls for NZDF. the pollies will duck for cover of course and Goffs comments I think are an insult to NZDF and the RNZN considering what he and Clark did to NZDF, especially RNZAF ACF.

Related Links:

Cobbers keep navy afloat

We've moved on, Defence Minister says

Defence Force plan to cut costs a failure - Auditor-General

 

[RegR]

Interesting article, the dire situation in our forces is gaining more and more exposure hopefully leading to some better solutions and management of the situation(albeit maybe too late).

Can't help but notice the navy solution is to cut sea going hours and possibly sell off ships? Not really solving the problem, more shifting it and creating others. You can't really make the problem smaller to make it look better on paper as the slack will have to be taken up elsewhere.

 

[ngatimozart]

Interesting article, the dire situation in our forces is gaining more and more exposure hopefully leading to some better solutions and management of the situation(albeit maybe too late).

Can't help but notice the navy solution is to cut sea going hours and possibly sell off ships? Not really solving the problem, more shifting it and creating others. You can't really make the problem smaller to make it look better on paper as the slack will have to be taken up elsewhere.

The problem is not going to to be solved until the NZG changes its attitude and gives NZDF realistic and proper funding instead of the miserly policies that have existed since 1990. Vote: Defence should be 2% GDP plus inflation and any capital expenditure should come out of the NZGs general accounts. As each year of the current policy progresses the NZDFs situation deteriorates with increasing rapidity and the costs of just retaining current capabilties, let alone reclaiming lost capabilities, increases markedly. The polies and the bean counters don't either realise that or don't want to acknowledge it. The trouble is that this is close to reaching the point where it will endanger the security of the nation.

 

[Gibbo]

Interesting article, the dire situation in our forces is gaining more and more exposure hopefully leading to some better solutions and management of the situation(albeit maybe too late).

Can't help but notice the navy solution is to cut sea going hours and possibly sell off ships? Not really solving the problem, more shifting it and creating others. You can't really make the problem smaller to make it look better on paper as the slack will have to be taken up elsewhere.

Interesting to note also front page article in same edition having a go at the Army (yes off topic) Army heads hit back at combat training claims - National - NZ Herald News

And as for RNZN cutting sea going hours and possibly selling off ships - yes that's no solution at all!

As far as article on RNZN goes it's nothing new to members of this forum but I'd like to stick my neck way out & state that this clearly shows we are NOT punching above our weight in the region, in fact not even pulling our weight - not recently anyway. I'd therefore like to see press & others stop using the well-worn tag line that we do!

RNZN & RNZAF P3 can't meet even low-level patrolling tasks - that is NOT pulling our weight. Yes we do with smaller more specific taskings such as Afghanistan (although the link re:Army posted above could question that to a degree).

The article is spot on, this is the fault of successive penny-pinching Govt directives to cut costs & how the NZDF brass have gone about the most recent cuts. It should hopefully help bring about a change in thinking. Hopefully the NZHerald & other press will keep up momentum on the topic & get some heat on the Govt to start improving things. Stopping crapping on personnel would be a good start!

 

[Gibbo]

The problem is not going to to be solved until the NZG changes its attitude and gives NZDF realistic and proper funding instead of the miserly policies that have existed since 1990. Vote: Defence should be 2% GDP plus inflation and any capital expenditure should come out of the NZGs general accounts. ......

Nail perfectly on the head!:smash

 

[RegR]

Agreed Ngati, we have cut too much funding from the already underfunded Defence forces as it looks best for Govt, I personally would rather cut needless benefits that just fund people to not go to work or make them earn those funds making up the now dwindleing defence force numbers. Actually I would like to see parlament perks reigned in as they seem fine to take away more and more defence perks yet we constantly see wasted MP funding in the papers, makes my blood boil.

Gibbo as much as I hate to admit it I think you are right, the whole 'punching above our weight' phrase will soon be replaced by how many rounds can we last before TKO and at the moment it could very well be in the first round. With the continued loss of numbers, experience, capabilities and now possibly assets our 'punch' becomes less and less potent, strategic and relevant.

I usually do not put much faith into the media news reports as they are almost always blown way out of proportion however sometimes they get it right on the button, as in the naval story, although still not sold on the army training story. Yes there will always be deficiancies however comparitively our forces training(especially for Astan) is of a good standard. There is no 'training' in the world that could successfully withstand a well planned large IED 100% of the time, if there was Afghan would be a very different place. Imagine the casualties we could have sustained if our TTPs or equipment had been sub-standard, we may not have the best but I still beleive we have some of the best, now to not let that slip any further.

 

[chis73]

Otago antarctic patrol cancelled

I wonder what has happened to Otago. We seem to have gone from this (released by NZDF late last week):

OTAGO will berth at Bluff Friday 22 February for a resupply and respite visit, before sailing on Monday to continue with DoC taskings in the sub-Antarctic region for a further week.

NZDF - Navy Provides Assistance In Isolated Islands

to this today:

Mr McCully said he was advised by the navy that the mission to tackle illegal or unreported fishing was not going to be possible because it was "not within the capabilities of the vessel".

Asked whether the navy needed better ships, Mr McCully said: "We were simply advised they weren't going to be able to achieve the mission and so they decided to pull it."

Navy cans Antarctic fishery patrol - National - NZ Herald News

Sounds like Otago may have busted something (hopefully not her crew). Or are the predicted weather / ice conditions just too much for her (in high summer)? Or is the Navy simply not going since the DoC mission is no longer happening? It's difficult to pierce the usual journalistic fog in that article. Hopefully NZDF or Navy will clarify things with a press statement.

Certainly the latter story brings the CDF's & the Def Min's comments last month about being able to meet all of the commitments into stark relief.

I guess Mr. McCully is fronting this because Dr. Coleman is currently overseas.

Chis73