Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[icelord]

Ngatimozart,
I know there has been various discussions regarding the future OCV's, but I don't know if the Meteoro Class has come up in discussion before.

On the surface it certainly looks interesting, for me at least, and I'm interested to know what others think too.

As far as Ice strengthening, we also have a lot of "Southern Ocean" territory to think about too.

If a configuration, regardless of type, can be found that is suitable for both Australia and NZ it might be worth thinking about.

Cheers,

I do like them, and they will be a frontrunner noting the links already established with Navantina and Australian ship builders at BAE williamstown, Forgacs Newcastle and AWD Alliance Adelaide, so finding someone to build them would be very simple.
The MCM part will be simple for the future of mine warefare is set to be Unmanned vehicles that need to be launched by a crane or davit, a minor add on.
Im more a fan however of the Dutch Holland class built by Damen.
Holland Class Offshore Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology

Austal MRV is still mentioned regularly, but noting our issues with Alluminium and there growing issues(we found some more in the last few weeks) then i doubt navy will be keen to go back down that road. Of course the boats are the problem, not the maintanence contractors, or unforseen sea days blowing out of reccommended use, its the ship builders fault from the beginning...its easier to say that then fix the actual issues, so we will again have DMS contract the work onboard whatever we get anyway(rantfftopic)

The problem with Sea 1180 is that they have no tender, no date for submissions and very little publicly available requirements, so speculation is rife.

While we go about picking off the US inventory, would a couple of ospreys go astray here...

If Sports Tab comes up with a betting option for this, I'll have a $100 on the announcement being made!!!

O no, not falling for that again! ive already lost a bottle of rum on her being decommissioned last year, was looking good till they were putting her in maintanence after a total of 6 weeks at sea for 2012

 

[Milne Bay]

Isn't Success due to enter a major docking/refit period during the time Cantabria is here?

I can see the anouncement now:

"Canberra, DefMin Smith today announced that upon HMAS Success entering her docking period it was "discovered" that a number of major defects were present, blah, blah, blah, blah....

"Upon hearing that news I have been in contact with my Spanish counterpart to discuss the possible extension of having Cantabria remain in Australia until further examinations are conducted.

"We have also discussed the "possible" purchase of Cantabria too, further information will be provided in the near future, blah, blah, blah!!"


If Sports Tab comes up with a betting option for this, I'll have a $100 on the announcement being made!!!

Cheers,

Oh man, that is so true to life it isn't funny.
You aren't a speech writer for the Def Min by any chance are you?
Hahahaha

 

[Volkodav]

I do like them, and they will be a frontrunner noting the links already established with Navantina and Australian ship builders at BAE williamstown, Forgacs Newcastle and AWD Alliance Adelaide, so finding someone to build them would be very simple.
The MCM part will be simple for the future of mine warefare is set to be Unmanned vehicles that need to be launched by a crane or davit, a minor add on.
Im more a fan however of the Dutch Holland class built by Damen.
Holland Class Offshore Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology

Austal MRV is still mentioned regularly, but noting our issues with Alluminium and there growing issues(we found some more in the last few weeks) then i doubt navy will be keen to go back down that road. Of course the boats are the problem, not the maintanence contractors, or unforseen sea days blowing out of reccommended use, its the ship builders fault from the beginning...its easier to say that then fix the actual issues, so we will again have DMS contract the work onboard whatever we get anyway(rantfftopic)

The problem with Sea 1180 is that they have no tender, no date for submissions and very little publicly available requirements, so speculation is rife.

While we go about picking off the US inventory, would a couple of ospreys go astray here...

O no, not falling for that again! ive already lost a bottle of rum on her being decommissioned last year, was looking good till they were putting her in maintanence after a total of 6 weeks at sea for 2012

I am curious, anyone know how the Customs Bay Class PB's are going, same builder, same maintainer, same operating area just older, shorter and civilian crewed? What will be even more interesting is comparing the performance and availability of the Capes to the ACPBs when they come on line.

I have also been wondering if we could go for joint builds of and OPV / Corvette and a PB / FAC for Customs and the RAN respectively. Get the basic hull right for the Customs application and then add bling to follow on (now proven) hulls for the RAN, i.e. more power, better sensors and bigger bang sticks. This would smooth out the learning curve, provide economies of scale for the build and for support and keep Austal building sustainable numbers of aluminium hulls and the other yards sharing construction of the larger steel hulls. Both customs and the RAN would also then have both the small and large hulled assets they need to carry out their differing functions.

 

[Milne Bay]

I am curious, anyone know how the Customs Bay Class PB's are going, same builder, same maintainer, same operating area just older, shorter and civilian crewed? What will be even more interesting is comparing the performance and availability of the Capes to the ACPBs when they come on line.

I have also been wondering if we could go for joint builds of and OPV / Corvette and a PB / FAC for Customs and the RAN respectively. Get the basic hull right for the Customs application and then add bling to follow on (now proven) hulls for the RAN, i.e. more power, better sensors and bigger bang sticks. This would smooth out the learning curve, provide economies of scale for the build and for support and keep Austal building sustainable numbers of aluminium hulls and the other yards sharing construction of the larger steel hulls. Both customs and the RAN would also then have both the small and large hulled assets they need to carry out their differing functions.

I have the impression that there has been a distinct cooling of affection for the aluminium hulled boat in navy service. Other than that your idea has merit.

 

[John Newman]

Oh man, that is so true to life it isn't funny.
You aren't a speech writer for the Def Min by any chance are you?
Hahahaha

No I'm not.

But I used to work for a large Legal Publisher for many years, worked with a lot of Solicitors, well failed Solicitors as we called them, I got used to hearing people say a hell of a lot without actually saying anything.

Also spent some time in real estate sales, please don't hold that against me, where we would say "don't BS the BShter", you had to be there, it came with the turf.

So you learn to BS with the best of them! Mmmm, got me thinking, maybe I could contact the DefMin's department and see if they need anymore good BShters!!

 

[Marc 1]

blah blah... boat stuff.... blah blah (got the heavy trawling tackle out with that line)

While we go about picking off the US inventory, would a couple of ospreys go astray here...

Oooh, I'll bet there are quite a few that could make a very good case for them (specials etc) but another airframe type and the operating costs, not going to happen. Then again the way our present government thinks, they could be dual rolled as surf rescue or painted red as santa sleighs to drop pork barrels oopps I mean presents for kids and hay for flooded out livestock out of.

 

[Volkodav]

Oooh, I'll bet there are quite a few that could make a very good case for them (specials etc) but another airframe type and the operating costs, not going to happen. Then again the way our present government thinks, they could be dual rolled as surf rescue or painted red as santa sleighs to drop pork barrels oopps I mean presents for kids and hay for flooded out livestock out of.

Pretty much what i was thinking, I wonder how much it would cost to paint USS Enterprise a couple of Ticos and some older SSNs red....:goodbad

 

[ASSAIL]

As far as Ice strengthening, we also have a lot of "Southern Ocean" territory to think about too.

John, the stated geographical requirement for SEA 1180 is only down to 48deg South.

I think there are any number of similar hulls to the Navantia 3000 on the market right now. The seem to be "flavour of the month". the problem is that, although they meet, and exceed in many cases, all the requirements for 1180, they are too expensive for our political leaders to contemplate.

When the patrol force has been running with playboats for so long, those with the cheque book will always push for simple replacements.

Maybe our leaders should be mounting the anti case, what we don't need and why, rather than pushing for what we do need and see if that has traction.

 

[ADMk2]

John, the stated geographical requirement for SEA 1180 is only down to 48deg South.

I think there are any number of similar hulls to the Navantia 3000 on the market right now. The seem to be "flavour of the month". the problem is that, although they meet, and exceed in many cases, all the requirements for 1180, they are too expensive for our political leaders to contemplate.

When the patrol force has been running with playboats for so long, those with the cheque book will always push for simple replacements.

Maybe our leaders should be mounting the anti case, what we don't need and why, rather than pushing for what we do need and see if that has traction.

Or push an angle about "dual" use and how awesome the larger boats would be for HDR purposes...

 

[hairyman]

If a US firesale took place, one of the first things to go would be the Zumwalt 1000 destroyers (dont shoot me if I got the name wrong). Now that would be an interesting pick-up for the RAN.

 

[justsomeaussie]

All things being equal what are people's thoughts on which ship building industry we should keep if it came down to choosing? Aluminim or steel? Big ships or boats.

 

[gf0012-aust]

All things being equal what are people's thoughts on which ship building industry we should keep if it came down to choosing? Aluminim or steel? Big ships or boats.

Steel. Aluminium can look after itself in a bigger private/non military market.

At one stage Aussie cat builders owned 40% of the international cat market for brown and green water ferries. the market exists

steel for military is tough, steel for civil is basically owned by the big three already

 

[StobieWan]

If a US firesale took place, one of the first things to go would be the Zumwalt 1000 destroyers (dont shoot me if I got the name wrong). Now that would be an interesting pick-up for the RAN.

Doubt it, there's three elderly Ticos with no BMD mods that were reinstated by Congress that could be struck down for spares for the existing fleet, plus a pile of other things. The DDG-1000's are cheap to run by comparison (small crew, automation etc)

 

[ASSAIL]

If a US firesale took place, one of the first things to go would be the Zumwalt 1000 destroyers (dont shoot me if I got the name wrong). Now that would be an interesting pick-up for the RAN.

Problem is we don't have any defined capability requirement that they could meet.

 

[Volkodav]

Problem is we don't have any defined capability requirement that they could meet.

Border protection patrols, flag showing and disaster relief?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Doubt it, there's three elderly Ticos with no BMD mods that were reinstated by Congress that could be struck down for spares for the existing fleet, plus a pile of other things. The DDG-1000's are cheap to run by comparison (small crew, automation etc)

We've passed up on Tico's before - we won't go back there again

As for DDG 1000's, no chance, we might love orphan systems, but they are absolute procurement bastards - RAN wouldn't go near them and inherit something that would suck even more money out before fielding

 

[justsomeaussie]

With all the hoopla about the serviceability of the Armidale patrol boats, why are Customs about to launch 8 Cape Class patrol boats which appear to be just an improved Armidale.

Seems bizarre to me that if these boats a supposed poor design that ACBPS would have gone with an Austal/aluminium hull. Will be interesting to see how their sea trials go this year.

 

[gf0012-aust]

With all the hoopla about the serviceability of the Armidale patrol boats, why are Customs about to launch 8 Cape Class patrol boats which appear to be just an improved Armidale.

Seems bizarre to me that if these boats a supposed poor design that ACBPS would have gone with an Austal/aluminium hull. Will be interesting to see how their sea trials go this year.

there's a fundamental issue here that Customs do not go through the same intense platform assessment that Defence does with asset and platform evaluation

RAN has no involvement with whether the platforms comply with requirements of effectiveness and utility against numerous criteria which can have up to 6 different groups of SME's involved.

Some of the customs vessels are nicknamed HMAS Harvey Norman by other agencies (and not just within Defence) , that might give you a clue as to how different the evaluations are between agencies

 

[justsomeaussie]

there's a fundamental issue here that Customs do not go through the same intense platform assessment that Defence does with asset and platform evaluation

The same intense platform assessment that bought Kanimbla, Manura, Choules Heavy Landing Craft and Sea Sprite? Can we really say the system we use has brought value for money?

 

[gf0012-aust]

The same intense platform assessment that bought Kanimbla, Manura, Choules Heavy Landing Craft and Sea Sprite? Can we really say the system we use has brought value for money?

If you want to have a short at those platforms then you would absolutely cry your eyes out at the Customs evaluation process

all of the above are engineering examples of excellence compared to how customs currently evaluate and assess

I and a few others have seen their assessments first hand - sent to us at our day job email addresses because the Customs staff involved were "nervous"

If would also be useful for you to know that some of the above platform assessments were influenced adversely by things such as Ministerial intervention and by Central Agencies reviews

SeaSprite being a classic example of how when the platform was at 98% solution and fix the Govt made a decision to kill it completely. More than a few engineers are pi$$ed off at that one

I see the same intelligent throw away comments made about Collins by people who have NFI about the quality and political problems that adversely influence things like availability

Listen more, speak less and assume less, is always a useful maxim to abide by