Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

Just an FYI for you, a guy I chat to on Youtube who lives in Coruna Spain posted a vid of the Cantabria arriving in Coruna

B.A.C. CANTABRIA arrives in A Coruña - YouTube


He advises she will be departing Coruna 11.30 local time 3rd Jan bound for Australia, not sure what her arrival date is though

Cheers

Good news, I'm sure she will be a welcome addition, well at least for the year.

I keep wondering if sometime later in 2013 SBS Cantabria might end up staying and being rename HMAS ...........?

Or maybe an announcement that one or more of her sisters might be built for us in Spain, or hopefully here to boost the ship building industry.

Oh well, just have to wait and see!!

 

[Milne Bay]

Good news, I'm sure she will be a welcome addition, well at least for the year.

I keep wondering if sometime later in 2013 SBS Cantabria might end up staying and being rename HMAS ...........?

Or maybe an announcement that one or more of her sisters might be built for us in Spain, or hopefully here to boost the ship building industry.

Oh well, just have to wait and see!!

Second option looks most likely to me.
I wonder if any of our shipyards have the capacity to take on this extra project over and above what they are currently contracted for.
I guess it could be done module style like the AWD.
Probably get the ship quicker if done in Spain though.

 

[John Newman]

Second option looks most likely to me.
I wonder if any of our shipyards have the capacity to take on this extra project over and above what they are currently contracted for.
I guess it could be done module style like the AWD.
Probably get the ship quicker if done in Spain though.

I'm sure you are right that the Spanish could probably do it quicker.

But the current Government keeps talking about avoiding the "Valley of Death" in shipbuilding, and one of the solutions has been to stretch out the AWD build before the new submarines start construction, and the occasional "hint" of a 4th AWD by the DefMin too.

BAE in Williamstown has been making lots of noise about having to lay off staff, so why not have it as the lead yard for one or more of the Cantabria's?

And while we are at it, what about starting on the LCH's replacements too?

Am I asking too much? yes, probably!

 

[aussienscale]

Second option looks most likely to me.
I wonder if any of our shipyards have the capacity to take on this extra project over and above what they are currently contracted for.
I guess it could be done module style like the AWD.
Probably get the ship quicker if done in Spain though.

Agree, if we were to build, preferably 2, of them the Spain built would be cheaper, they are still in a world of hurt in Spain, and I would be guessing there is a very good offer on the table for the Spanish Government to bring home some more bacon from Australia

With everything else on the cards for the Australian industry we simply don't have the capacity to build these at the moment, and we need something to replace Success sooner rather than later because she is well and truly "as the crow calls"

Cheers

 

[swerve]

Agree, if we were to build, preferably 2, of them the Spain built would be cheaper, they are still in a world of hurt in Spain, and I would be guessing there is a very good offer on the table for the Spanish Government to bring home some more bacon from Australia

Cheers

Make an offer & they'll bite your hand off.

 

[mankyle]

I'm spanish and I must say that here the situation is close to "desperate" in some regions. There in the north of the country, where the LHD, and the Alvaro de Bazan destroyers have been built they are suffering a high unemployement rate in the naval building sector due to lack of workload.

They will probably offer good prices for new ships to be built there just for the sake of not having to fire a lot of workers

 

[t68]

I'm spanish and I must say that here the situation is close to "desperate" in some regions. There in the north of the country, where the LHD, and the Alvaro de Bazan destroyers have been built they are suffering a high unemployement rate in the naval building sector due to lack of workload.

They will probably offer good prices for new ships to be built there just for the sake of not having to fire a lot of workers

Wonder if they would offer us the deal of a lifetime for another LHD and a couple of oilers they would keep the yard open for how long?

 

[hairyman]

Why are we so keen on saving the Spanish shipbuilding industry? We should be looking after our own. Spain is not one of our major trading partners.

 

[aussienscale]

Why are we so keen on saving the Spanish shipbuilding industry? We should be looking after our own. Spain is not one of our major trading partners.

I think it would be a case of too good to refuse, as Mankyle has mentioned, Spain is in a lot of hurt still, with some areas having greater than 50% unemployment !

We have the ability to build these style ships in Australia, as I would assume the Cantabria Class are also block built ? The lift at Adelaide has a capacity of 22,000 Tonnes and 210 Meters if upgraded, but not sure how long that would take or the cost ?

It currently has a capacity of 10,000~ Tonnes and 150-160 Meters, with the delays in the AWD, hint of maybe a fourth ? there would be no room in the schedule to build even one, cost involved in start up for one maybe two ships, tooling, training, any other design specific requirements ? And the potential to slip Collins II would be a nightmare

Not sure if other yards have the capacity to build ships of this size, but that then brings in the same set of problems as above, better IMO to take a bargain from Spain, the Government would subsidise it just to keep jobs there for another couple of years

Cheers

Oh and then of course our illustrious leader Mr Smith and the Government can gloat in the election lead up that they are building a stronger Defence Force with this much needed capability and look at the money they are saving us with this awesome decision...........Blah Blah Blah, Etc

 

[aussienscale]

Make an offer & they'll bite your hand off.

Definately, I would suspect so would many other European yards at the moment ? certainly a buyers market out there for any country on the bargain hunt

Cheers

 

[icelord]

Definately, I would suspect so would many other European yards at the moment ? certainly a buyers market out there for any country on the bargain hunt

Cheers

If the US hits that fisical cliff again in 3 months time, and has to slash 10% of the military budget, somebody get our CDF to the pentagon with a cheque book...nothing says saving money like selling gear dirt cheap!

It would be better then a boxing day sale, we just walk along a pearl harbour and go, "one of them and one of them, does it come in a darker shade of grey?"

 

[John Newman]

If the US hits that fisical cliff again in 3 months time, and has to slash 10% of the military budget, somebody get our CDF to the pentagon with a cheque book...nothing says saving money like selling gear dirt cheap!

It would be better then a boxing day sale, we just walk along a pearl harbour and go, "one of them and one of them, does it come in a darker shade of grey?"

As long as they don't pick up a couple of rust buckets in the fire sale, eg, a Saginaw or Fairfax County!!

Which brings up an interesting "what if?"

Are there any USN Ships that would be of any "real" interest?

I can certainly think of plenty of equipment for our Airforce and Army, but it's a bit of a struggle to think of vessels that could "reasonably" be slotted into the current RAN structure.

Some "low mileage" Arleigh Burke's for example, but we are too far down the track with the AWD's.

Some amphibious ships perhaps, but again, with the LHD's comming soon, I can't see too much there that would be practical.

Replenishment ships, maybe?, but we are probably going to end up with one or two Cantabria's.

A couple of Virginia SSNs?? Well we know the answer to that, that would be a big NO!

As I said, it's a bit of a struggle to find something that could reasonably be fitted in.


Now on the other hand, if our Spanish friends were going to have a fire sale, I could think of quiet a few.

JC1, F105 Christobal Colon, one of the LPD's probably the younger Castilla and of course Cantabria too.

And even down to the Meteoro OPV's (Spain currently has 4 and planning 9), now there's and interesting class of ship, possible candidate for the SEA1180 OCV's perhaps??

So maybe get the CDF to visit Spain too!!!

 

[ASSAIL]

Are there any USN Ships that would be of any "real" interest?

A Lewis and Clark T-AKE would do very nicely thanks.

F105 Christobal Colon,

It would be a one off, systems are too different.

And even down to the Meteoro OPV's (Spain currently has 4 and planning 9), now there's and interesting class of ship, possible candidate for the SEA1180 OCV's perhaps??

SEA 1180 needs to be built here to maintain our teetering shipbuilding skills, preferably at BAE Williamstown.

 

[icelord]

Yeah a Lewis and Clark T-AKE would be awesome, but so so under utilised
Henry J Kaiser for short term until we select a success replacement, most are in good condition although heavily used for operations, they tend to spend alot more time at sea compared to our 2 refuellers. Im thinking along terms of having success decommisioned ASAP.

With the dramas they are having, and the most likely victim of a rapid budget cut, a Littoral would be a nice addition for Op resoloute atm as it would be of good use off CI and save us from utilising a Frigate like at present. We could back track through the long arguments about their value to the RAN, but with our current workload for ACPBs a mid sized vessel for Long hauls would be a major plus to us.

The big benefit we could see if they go over the cliff, would be in trained personnel departing as there have to be personnel cuts. With Aegis for AWD, alot of technical USN personnel would be a benefit, as well as the Romeos now coming online in 2014 qualified pilots and observors would be welcome, as well as deck personnel for LHDs and Air traffic controllers.

A US Military fire sale would change a few of our own programs, but the mid term gains would out way the short term work required.

 

[John Newman]

Assail,

Yes I agree that the SEA 1180 ships are planned to be built here and should be built here.

(My list was originally a big tongue in cheek at first regarding a possible a "fire sale" US and Spanish ships and what might be worthwhile for the RAN).

But getting back to the Meteoro Class,

Buques de Acción Marítima (BAM) Class Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology

And I must admit that I hadn't really taken much notice of them before going through the Spanish Navy list a little while ago, do you think they could be a possible candidate for SEA 1180?

I'd assume there would be a commonality of certain systems with other Spanish ships, which is applicable to us with the LHD's, AWD's and possible Cantabria purchase too.

They seem to be built with a lot of different roles in mind, though I don't see any mention of mine warfare modules in the info about them.

They are capable of taking a helicopter up to a MRH90 in their hanger too, which would no doubt cover the size of helicopters that we are thinking of operating off the SEA 1180 ships.

Could a ship, or a modification, of this class be suitable?

 

[John Newman]

Yeah a Lewis and Clark T-AKE would be awesome, but so so under utilised
Henry J Kaiser for short term until we select a success replacement, most are in good condition although heavily used for operations, they tend to spend alot more time at sea compared to our 2 refuellers. Im thinking along terms of having success decommisioned ASAP.

With the dramas they are having, and the most likely victim of a rapid budget cut, a Littoral would be a nice addition for Op resoloute atm as it would be of good use off CI and save us from utilising a Frigate like at present. We could back track through the long arguments about their value to the RAN, but with our current workload for ACPBs a mid sized vessel for Long hauls would be a major plus to us.

The big benefit we could see if they go over the cliff, would be in trained personnel departing as there have to be personnel cuts. With Aegis for AWD, alot of technical USN personnel would be a benefit, as well as the Romeos now coming online in 2014 qualified pilots and observors would be welcome, as well as deck personnel for LHDs and Air traffic controllers.

A US Military fire sale would change a few of our own programs, but the mid term gains would out way the short term work required.

The point you made about the availability of trained personnel is a good one, that would certainly be a positive result for Australia if the US Military is forced over the "Fiscal Cliff".

Certainly more so than the possible availability of suitable second hand ships.

But the Fiscal Cliff is also a double edged sword too, as I understand it, acquisitions that are already "contracted" would be insulated from the cuts. Other programs outside of that would face possible cuts and would no doubt have an impact because of reduced fleet size and increased per unit costs.

Probably not as big an issue for the RAN at the moment (eg, the Romeos are already in production), but more for the RAAF with "possible/probable" reduced purchases by the US of P8A's and F35A's, etc.

As I see it, there is both plus and minus outcomes for the ADF if the cuts to the US Defence budget do become reality.

 

[ngatimozart]

Assail,

Yes I agree that the SEA 1180 ships are planned to be built here and should be built here.

(My list was originally a big tongue in cheek at first regarding a possible a "fire sale" US and Spanish ships and what might be worthwhile for the RAN).

But getting back to the Meteoro Class,

Buques de Acción Marítima (BAM) Class Patrol Vessels - Naval Technology

And I must admit that I hadn't really taken much notice of them before going through the Spanish Navy list a little while ago, do you think they could be a possible candidate for SEA 1180?

I'd assume there would be a commonality of certain systems with other Spanish ships, which is applicable to us with the LHD's, AWD's and possible Cantabria purchase too.

They seem to be built with a lot of different roles in mind, though I don't see any mention of mine warfare modules in the info about them.

They are capable of taking a helicopter up to a MRH90 in their hanger too, which would no doubt cover the size of helicopters that we are thinking of operating off the SEA 1180 ships.

Could a ship, or a modification, of this class be suitable?

John it's modular design so I suppose theoretically possible to have a MCM module. I know that they should be built in Australia but as you noted on the RNZN thread what would the cost be for a bulk purchase of 25 ships. They only major difference I would see between RAN & RNZN requirements would be ice strengthening of the RNZN hulls, apart from the NZGs noted long pockets and short arms syndrome aka stinginess.

 

[John Newman]

John it's modular design so I suppose theoretically possible to have a MCM module. I know that they should be built in Australia but as you noted on the RNZN thread what would the cost be for a bulk purchase of 25 ships. They only major difference I would see between RAN & RNZN requirements would be ice strengthening of the RNZN hulls, apart from the NZGs noted long pockets and short arms syndrome aka stinginess.

Ngatimozart,

Mate, Interesting that you should bring up the fact that Kiwi's have short arms and deep pockets, I have quiet a few Kiwi mates that fit that decription to a tee!! (Just joking, I like my Kiwi mates, no really, I do!).

I know there has been various discussions regarding the future OCV's, but I don't know if the Meteoro Class has come up in discussion before.

On the surface it certainly looks interesting, for me at least, and I'm interested to know what others think too.

As far as Ice strengthening, we also have a lot of "Southern Ocean" territory to think about too.

If a configuration, regardless of type, can be found that is suitable for both Australia and NZ it might be worth thinking about.

Cheers,

 

[aussienscale]

Yeah a Lewis and Clark T-AKE would be awesome, but so so under utilised
Henry J Kaiser for short term until we select a success replacement, most are in good condition although heavily used for operations, they tend to spend alot more time at sea compared to our 2 refuellers. Im thinking along terms of having success decommisioned ASAP.

L&C T-AKE ? yes please, but why buy one when you can get 2 at twice the price

Success is all but decommisioned anyway, if they have a spare HJ sitting around for short term lease while building ? or the Cantabria can hang around for a little longer

On that note, how long do you think it will be before they announce the decomm of Success after the arival of Cantabria ? If I was a betting man I would say just into the new financial, that way they don't have to budget for it, use it as a vote grab in a desperate attempt, and they don't really care after they loose.

Cheers

 

[John Newman]

L&C T-AKE ? yes please, but why buy one when you can get 2 at twice the price

Success is all but decommisioned anyway, if they have a spare HJ sitting around for short term lease while building ? or the Cantabria can hang around for a little longer

On that note, how long do you think it will be before they announce the decomm of Success after the arival of Cantabria ? If I was a betting man I would say just into the new financial, that way they don't have to budget for it, use it as a vote grab in a desperate attempt, and they don't really care after they loose.

Cheers

Isn't Success due to enter a major docking/refit period during the time Cantabria is here?

I can see the anouncement now:

"Canberra, DefMin Smith today announced that upon HMAS Success entering her docking period it was "discovered" that a number of major defects were present, blah, blah, blah, blah....

"Upon hearing that news I have been in contact with my Spanish counterpart to discuss the possible extension of having Cantabria remain in Australia until further examinations are conducted.

"We have also discussed the "possible" purchase of Cantabria too, further information will be provided in the near future, blah, blah, blah!!"


If Sports Tab comes up with a betting option for this, I'll have a $100 on the announcement being made!!!

Cheers,