Russian Air Force News & Discussion
- Thread starter Haavarla
- Start date
From first flight to serial production in five years and all flight testing completed in 2-2.5 years eh?
Hmmm. Something sounds just a little off there...
Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #863
Whatever you do, pls do not compair the Pak-Fa with other program such as F-22 or F-35.
Cause they are very different in many ways.
No doubt this Pak-Fa program is very challanging for Sukhoi and Russian Aviation industry.
But the whole Pak-Fa program is no where as big and daunting as the above 5th gen programs is/was.
We will see compromises in the T-50, when its ready for serial production. And no doubt they figured out the penalty in making the jet too complex and expensive..
The requirements of VVS has always been slighty pragmatic and their jets have to have a certain robustnes in order to operate within their sphere of climat, infrastructure and other operational challanges.
After all they might have learned something from observation alone(see F-22).
I'm not claiming these dates will hold true.
But pls keep in mind the Pak-Fa program started back in 2002.
Large parts of the program has been done with Su-35(engine, FCS, Avionics etc)
And from the looks of it, they might go IOC with the current 117M engine.
It sounds about right, if you know the aviation history for Russia. Way not make this as cheap and time saving as possible.
The Pak-Fa program is also build upon the Su-35S program, which is a nice reminder of the Russian way of working.
Cause they are very different in many ways.
No doubt this Pak-Fa program is very challanging for Sukhoi and Russian Aviation industry.
But the whole Pak-Fa program is no where as big and daunting as the above 5th gen programs is/was.
We will see compromises in the T-50, when its ready for serial production. And no doubt they figured out the penalty in making the jet too complex and expensive..
The requirements of VVS has always been slighty pragmatic and their jets have to have a certain robustnes in order to operate within their sphere of climat, infrastructure and other operational challanges.
After all they might have learned something from observation alone(see F-22).
I'm not claiming these dates will hold true.
But pls keep in mind the Pak-Fa program started back in 2002.
Large parts of the program has been done with Su-35(engine, FCS, Avionics etc)
And from the looks of it, they might go IOC with the current 117M engine.
It sounds about right, if you know the aviation history for Russia. Way not make this as cheap and time saving as possible.
The Pak-Fa program is also build upon the Su-35S program, which is a nice reminder of the Russian way of working.
A lot of the systems and subsystems of the early PAK-FA are taken directly from upgraded Flanker variants, including the engines. Also, state trials can last for more then a year, and initial serial production can begin long before state trials end. The Su-34 for example began "serial production" in 2006, but state trials were only completed in September 2011. So beginning state trials may be a PR move, and no more then. What exactly state trials mean is also highly questionable. Especially given that a lot of the current PAK-FAs systems are meant to be replaced or upgraded in the near future, including the engines. And these upgrades would likely necessitate a second round of state trials, for the upgraded variant.
Also a lot of the systems have been tested on flying laboratories already. So it seems to be like 1) they're cutting corners in the aircraft design itself 2) they're cutting corners during testing and 3) the aircraft they will deliver in 2015 will be notably inferior to the more finalized variant we can expect to see in the 2020 timeframe.
Also the Russian government has apparently been putting together fairly massive aviation purchase packages with the idea of stimulating domestic aircraft production.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/414976.html?view=10226176#t10226176
According to the chart from Izvestiya the MoD in particular will be taking 39 An-148s, 2 Tu-214s and11 Tu-204SMs.
From other news it's also been mentioned that the MoD wants ~60 An-140s including the proposed An-140T variant with a ramp. A follow-on contract for 15 An-140s is already in the works.
Now the MoD also buys small number of Tu-154Bs every year (typically 1-2 aircraft). All in all that's a lot of passenger aircraft for the military. I suppose the An-148 could be the An-148T, but that's problematic too, unless they decide that the An-148 will be the basis for the MTA project. The Tu-204 and it's derivatives could be special aircraft, like the Tu-214ON/SUS/P. And I suppose some of them could end up being carriers for the A-90 ELINT complex. But all of this looks questionable so far.
I really wonder how much an increase in capability and performance the PAK-FA represents over the SU-35S given so much of the former apparently draws on the latter? Feedback in the media over the years from the USAF and LM is that using established simulation models validated by large-scale real-life exercises,5Gen aircraft are anywhere from 3X - 6X more effective than the legacy jets they will replace. Testimony earlier this year in Parliament Down Under is consistent with this view. Will the same hold true for PAK-FA? Paying the price financially and in terms of a drawn-out design, test and development program seem to be de rigueur in such undertakings
alexkvaskov
New Member
Why is the MoD ordering so much passenger aircraft for the VVS?
Excellent question. The MoD does need a certain number of passenger aircraft for flights inside and between MDs. However the An-140 (replacing the An-24) and the Tu-154M (not the Tu-154B, my mistake) fill those needs quite nicely.
They do need quite a few dedicated special platforms, such as airborne command posts and retranslator aircraft for communications, long range ELINT aircraft, etc. and the Tu-204 family seems to have been selected for those purposes, namely the Tu-214. They could use Tu-204SMs for the same purpose, and given that production of the Tu-204SM is just starting it may be that all Tu-214P and SUS variants from now on will be on that plane.
What really gives me pause is the massive numbers of An-148s they're buying. Unless they've decided to use it instead of the MTA, for VVS purposes as a medium transport aircraft, there's not many other uses for it. I suppose it may be getting selected as the carrier for the maritime patrol aircraft (the one Russia is supposedly going to develop together with Italy). But in that department the Be-200 would make more sense, and the MoD has plans to acquire at least 8 of those.
By the way, the two Tu-154Ms for the MoD have been completed at Aviakor, and this may be the last Tu-154M to be produced, ever, given how there are no more contracts for it. That having been said the last commercially produced one, was handed over to UTAir in 2007, which isn't that long ago. And Aviakor does have parts for 10 more planes, which would put pressure on them to find a buyer for at least some of those. This is the 989th plane produced since 1969.
bmpd -
It'll be interesting to see if Aviakor can keep it's plans to hand over two more An-140s this year. If they do this will be a very good year for the plant, producing a total of 4 An-140s, and 2 Tu-154Ms.
Also a couple of the new Mi-28Ns, and a Mi-35M, in VVS colors have been spotted at Rosvertol.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/415396.html
A better sensor suite, AESA radar, and some LO features seem to be the main points. There is a set of next-gen weapons being developed, but it's likely they will work with both PAK-FA and Su-35S.
alexkvaskov
New Member
The first Il-476 at Spektr-Avia, finally painted. Looks like its gotten new engines, can anyone confirm?
Фото: Ил-76МД-90РпоÑле окраÑки на ОÐО «Спектр-Ðвиа»
India has signed two contracts worth 2.9 billion dollars for 71 Mi-17V-5 choppers and 42 Su-30MKI kits. India sure loves their MKI's.
http://en.rian.ru/business/20121224/178368313.html
Фото: Ил-76МД-90РпоÑле окраÑки на ОÐО «Спектр-Ðвиа»
India has signed two contracts worth 2.9 billion dollars for 71 Mi-17V-5 choppers and 42 Su-30MKI kits. India sure loves their MKI's.
http://en.rian.ru/business/20121224/178368313.html
Well now lenta.ru is saying that the MoD is no longer planning on purchasing any more An-140s, due to problems revealed in experimental exploitation of the early planes. Given that there are large state orders planned from other agencies, and that there really isn't an alternative, I find it somewhat hard to believe. I suppose they could go with the unfinished Ilyushin project, but the An-140 can be produced now, is already in the process of developing dedicated variants for the MoD (OKR Syemschik for example) and will be in serial production regardless of MoD orders.
Lenta.ru:
Of course lenta.ru is also claiming that the purchases will cease after delivery of 18 aircraft, and only 11 have been contracted so far, with a preliminary agreement for 15 more.
I think, if this is true, it's a mistake. It would be better to contract the UAC for development of an upgraded An-140 variant for MoD needs that addresses the issues that arose during experimental exploitation, then to try and start a whole new project.
There is also some info released about the S-500. Apparently the new SAM/BMD system will have a radar that can effectively detect targets up to 800-900kms away. It will also be unified with the A-135 and A-235 BMD systems (the A-235 is the under development replacement for the Moscow Industrial Region BMD, under the OKR Samolet-M). What this means in practice I'm not sure, since the S-500 will be a mobile complex. Maybe they mean the C4I elements, given that both will be part of the Air-Space Forces command.
Lt Gen. Bondarev (commander of the VVS) says that the first S-500 will be delivered next year, but they will use the missiles of the S-400, as the new munitions won't be completed until 2015.
Lenta.ru:
Lenta.ru:
Lenta.ru:
Of course lenta.ru is also claiming that the purchases will cease after delivery of 18 aircraft, and only 11 have been contracted so far, with a preliminary agreement for 15 more.
I think, if this is true, it's a mistake. It would be better to contract the UAC for development of an upgraded An-140 variant for MoD needs that addresses the issues that arose during experimental exploitation, then to try and start a whole new project.
There is also some info released about the S-500. Apparently the new SAM/BMD system will have a radar that can effectively detect targets up to 800-900kms away. It will also be unified with the A-135 and A-235 BMD systems (the A-235 is the under development replacement for the Moscow Industrial Region BMD, under the OKR Samolet-M). What this means in practice I'm not sure, since the S-500 will be a mobile complex. Maybe they mean the C4I elements, given that both will be part of the Air-Space Forces command.
Lt Gen. Bondarev (commander of the VVS) says that the first S-500 will be delivered next year, but they will use the missiles of the S-400, as the new munitions won't be completed until 2015.
Lenta.ru:
Lenta.ru:
Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #870
25.12.12 NAPO delivered 5 Su-34 to Baltimore AB.
B/n: 11.12.20.21.22.
Sukhoi Company (JSC) - News - News
The word is another five units will be delivered in the end of January.
B/n: 11.12.20.21.22.
Sukhoi Company (JSC) - News - News
The word is another five units will be delivered in the end of January.
alexkvaskov
New Member
Regarding the EW pods being developed for the Su-34, is it possible for other aircraft such as the Su-24/25/30/35 to be equipped with them?
In theory yes (mainly the Su-35S and Su-30SM), in practice I doubt it will happen. It's unlikely that Su-24Ms or Su-25s could carry them.
Also, some pics of the latest Su-34 batch, in Novosibirsk, prior to the flight.
bmpd -
bmpd -
Also, fun fact, apparently the BaltFleet AVMF still flies the Su-24Ms. Here's some pics of them operating off the same airfield as the Baltic Fleet Flanker regiment.
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I don't recall comparing it to any program, that seems to be others hang-ups not mine...
If I were to however, I think I'd be comparing it to the Gripen rather than any of the current US designs, given the similarities in the two. Both feature clean-sheet airframe designs with major components taken from existing or legacy designs, whereas the Americans seem to think they have to re-invent the wheel every time they build a new plane with almost every major aspect designed as new from scratch...
As you say there is a difference in philosophy snd while both may produce good aircraft, they definitely go about it in very different fashions...
So it appears that the state aviation order for the Il-476 will be truly massive. Aviastar claims that they expect one trillion roubles in orders for the type "in the near future". That's ~300 billion dollars worth of aircraft.
Also, flight trials are planned to be completed by the end of 2014.
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Currently they have a 140 billion rouble order for 39 aircraft (giving us an average price of 3.59 bln rbls per aircraft. That means they expect total orders to the tune of 280 aircraft, with only 39 of them going to the MoD as of right now. Granted the use of the Il-76 is incredibly widespread, and if the government decided to replace all Il-76s in service everywhere will all federal structures, it would be a number not far from this. But I think their estimates include export orders.
Also new munitions for the Su-34 are planned to enter service in 2013. This could be a veiled reference to the RVV-MD, which is a new medium-range AA missile that's supposed to appear next year for the PAK-FA and Su-35S, or it could mean that they're finally going to get some new PGMs.
Lenta.ru:
Also, flight trials are planned to be completed by the end of 2014.
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Currently they have a 140 billion rouble order for 39 aircraft (giving us an average price of 3.59 bln rbls per aircraft. That means they expect total orders to the tune of 280 aircraft, with only 39 of them going to the MoD as of right now. Granted the use of the Il-76 is incredibly widespread, and if the government decided to replace all Il-76s in service everywhere will all federal structures, it would be a number not far from this. But I think their estimates include export orders.
Also new munitions for the Su-34 are planned to enter service in 2013. This could be a veiled reference to the RVV-MD, which is a new medium-range AA missile that's supposed to appear next year for the PAK-FA and Su-35S, or it could mean that they're finally going to get some new PGMs.
Lenta.ru:
alexkvaskov
New Member
With the current exchange rate, it's about 33 billion dollars, not 300.
I hope they order more Il-78 tanker mods as opposed to 200+ transports, and can they even afford 30 billion on transport aircraft?
alexkvaskov
New Member
Shoigu has reversed Serdyukov's decision to adopt an all-grey, NATO style paint scheme for the air force.
Lenta.ru:
If this is the case, why weren't any all-grey Su-25/30/34/35s delivered? In any case, this seems like a purely PR move in favor of the VPK and defense establishment that MoD arbitrariness is over. And on what basis was the two-tone blue/grey scheme adopted in the first place?
IMHO the Yak-130 style paint scheme is much more attractive than the Su-25SM two-tone, but aesthetics are hardly the first consideration when jets are painted..
Lenta.ru:
If this is the case, why weren't any all-grey Su-25/30/34/35s delivered? In any case, this seems like a purely PR move in favor of the VPK and defense establishment that MoD arbitrariness is over. And on what basis was the two-tone blue/grey scheme adopted in the first place?
IMHO the Yak-130 style paint scheme is much more attractive than the Su-25SM two-tone, but aesthetics are hardly the first consideration when jets are painted..
Whoops. Typo. ~30 billion.
Theoretically yes. These figures include tanker orders, and the VVS has said before that they intend to get new tankers. But they need more then just replacement for current tankers, they need to increase total numbers of tankers in service. As is they barely have enough to keep Long-Range Aviation flying, never mind the Su-34s, and other frontal aviation planes.
A lot of Russian government branches use the Il-76, for example the MVD, or MChS.
Anyways, the VVS has 127 helos and 40 airplanes on order this year, with 32 airplanes delivered so far.
http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/12/blog-post_26.html
The remaining 8 should be 5 Su-34s, 2 more An-140s, and 1 more unknown?
Those 60 SU-30 SM, do they also include the 12 for Naval Aviation?
So by 2016 there will be 71 SU30 in service? (60 contracted pöus around 11 build between 1995-2001?)
Haavarla
Active Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #879
You can exlude those older Su-35 units. Don't think VVS ever recieved Su-30..
Sukhoi may have a few airframes flying around, i'm not sure.
Do not mistake older Su-27UB for Su-30.
The initiall deal was 30 Su-30SM.
Then another 30 was signed.
A total of 60 units. This include Naval Aviation.
Sukhoi may have a few airframes flying around, i'm not sure.
Do not mistake older Su-27UB for Su-30.
The initiall deal was 30 Su-30SM.
Then another 30 was signed.
A total of 60 units. This include Naval Aviation.
Also 4 Su-30M2.
64 in active use, possibly a few Su-30s from the 90s, but if there are any they're either in storage, or sitting around at Lipetsk.
Some pics of aircraft out of the windows of the Tu-214P, during it's recent flight by Japan.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/419192.html?view=10371192#t10371192