The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

The more and more I look at the Khareef, the more and more it seems to grow on me in terms of size, capability and cost. Not bad at all.

In other news, HMS Diomond is on her way back from the Gulf, meaning there's curently no T45s on deployment. She's being relieved by T23 frigate HMS Monmouth

Diamond jubilation as destroyer heads home after handover with Monmouth | Royal Navy

The two ships have traded places as the Royal Navy’s Gulf guardian; Monmouth has just relieved Diamond, which is homeward bound for Portsmouth after six months in the region on her inaugural deployment.

The vessels met up in the warm waters of the Gulf of Aden to conduct a formal handover of duties – and also to engage in good-natured rivalry as the ships’ companies trained fire-hoses on each other during a traditional ‘close sail past’.

Like Diamond (and Daring and many others who have gone before her) Devonport-based Monmouth will be ensuring the safety and security of merchant shipping in a region vital to the UK economy – more than three million barrels of oil pass through the Bab al-Mandab Strait alone each day, making it a vital waterway for supplies of energy to the British economy.

Would've preferred it if she was being relieved by Dragon, any experience for the T45s to operate as part of a big CBG like Diomond had the oppertunity to do (three times) can only benefit the transition where HMS Queen Elizabeth joins the fleet.

Just thought of something, we're going to have 2 years (2014 - 2016) when we'll only have 1 "flat top" - Ocean - in service.

 

[RobWilliams]

Sifting through a file of defence pictures I found a real beauty, must've just never got round to posting it. It's from Euronaval 2012 and it's about using CEA active arrays on the T26

. . the ship is expected to enter service with the Royal Navy in 2021. The modular approach to the GCS is clearly illustrated with an alternative superstructure which incorporates CEA's Active Phased Array technology.

CEA's Phased Array technology provides full active phased array radar options for the GCS. This fixed face radar technology removes the reliance on traditional rotating radar solutions [like Artisan] and is designed specifically to meed platform needs to defend against future threats.

The addition of multi frequency active phased array technology (as shown) enables an 'area defence' capability to be marketed to international customers. Furthermore this solution is suitable for customers requiring US missile compatability

So looks like they are taking the AAW variant of the T26 seriously, which is reassuring for sure, FREMM-ER has the same setup with active fixed arrays which - to me - makes me more secure in that BAE have actually thought about it. Wouldn't mind a couple of these extra to add onto the T45 pool for AAW, with a couple of alterations though

 

[Systems Adict]

I saw this picture (on Facebook) & thought that it may be worthy of a bit of discussion...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151298416093205&set=a.408795923204.185214.188183478204&type=1&theater

(For them that don't have facebook, it's a link to the UK RN's page, with a picture of either a Vanguard class, or Astute Class sub, complete with 'special forces' / DSRV pod)

SA

 

[RobWilliams]

It looks like an Astute IMO, it's got that sort of flowing hull form around the base of the conning tower that the Vanguard hasn't, it seems much more regular. Plus with the tower on a Vanguard there's more of a slope at the fore end because on the Vanguard the tower is closer forward so it'd be more noticable.

AFAIK the plan with Astute has always been to be compatable with the Chalfont SF delivery system bringing back the capability lost with the last of the Swiftsures (don't think the Trafalgars had it?) , but until now I can't recall seeing a picture so good spot SA!

EDIT: For those without Facebook, i'd added the image as an attachment

 

[kev 99]

Definitely an Astute, Vangaurd's conning tower is a completely different shape, and there's that flaired bit at the rear of the tower.

 

[Systems Adict]

Definitely an Astute, Vangaurd's conning tower is a completely different shape, and there's that flaired bit at the rear of the tower.

I've seen both while surfaced (as we passed them by) & I don't know the difference, hence the comment.

But I WAS positive that it wasn't a 'T' boat....

SA

 

[RobWilliams]

For me the first indicator was the hull form, i've attached 2 pictures of an Astute and a Vanguard. Side by side you can definitely see that Astute has a weird smooth curve-like hull around the base of the tower whereas for the Vanguard it's near enough just a straight line.

It's that little 'hump' on the Astute which - to me - is it's main distinguishing feature. But in retrospect the towers do look remarkably different, i'll remember that one.

 

[Systems Adict]

The more and more I look at the Khareef, the more and more it seems to grow on me in terms of size, capability and cost. Not bad at all.

Going a tad off topic, I MUCH prefer these....

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekiu_class_frigate"]Lekiu class frigate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

over these...

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khareef_class"]Khareef class corvette - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


SA

 

[RobWilliams]

Hey now, it's not OT. Throwing around ideas for RN corvettes or whatever is perfectly fine

Well, my first issue with it is it's called "Lekiu class frigate", don't want politicians to be getting any ideas now.

Propulsion stats seem appropriate for the respective vessel, i'd like a bigger gun than a 57mm something like a 76mm [can get Vulcano for the Oto 76mm I think]. Something to give it that bigger oomph but not close enough to be seriously comparable to a future RN frigate for NGFS. I mean I get for pirate hunting and whatnot a 57 is pretty much it, but i'd prefer a 76 if the option was there

+4 VLS AAW missiles for the Lekiu, slot some CAMM in there as chances are you'd use less space for an equivalent loadout OR use the same space for an enlarged loadout. Lekiu's got torps but Khareef doesn't.

Same AShM loadout (Khareef being BlkIII and Lekiu BlkII), biggest point in terms of narcotics patrols and dealing with pirates is that it can carry a helo (funny thing is, in the link you sent it links a Lynx as in the animal rather than the helo).

Knowledge on the electronic systems they use, I know sweet FA about so i'm gunna leave that alone.

Seems like quite a nice ship, chances are if built today we'd probably get a more fuel and cost efficient vessel with some nice capabilities. Certainly enough to keep Portsmouth happy and would - I expect - get a fair bit of use on deployment with rotating crews.

 

[Systems Adict]

....(funny thing is, in the link you sent it links a Lynx as in the animal rather than the helo).

THAT's down to the spelling being the same & the predictive text algorithm that's in the coding for Wikipedia !

LoL


SA

 

[StobieWan]

Leiku is a bit too well equipped and expensive for RN use I suspect - too close to the Type 26 in general - last I heard, they were being quoted at £200m a pop.

 

[RobWilliams]

True, True. Torps would probably be a bit OTT so they'd be gone along with the sonar.

Probably could ditch the AShM on the Khareef and that'd pretty much be it. ~2,600t, 4,500nm range, 76mm Oto, 2 x 30mm, CAMM + Lynx. Sounds good to me!

If more needed to be stripped off then swap out the Oto 76 for a BAE 57 (the Mk110 looks VERY nice) but IMO that'd be the minimum for me.

No ASW, very limited ASuW + AAW, can't see a politician getting too keen on mixing up classifications with that and a frigate

 

[StobieWan]

Khareef also has a much smaller embarked crew than the Plieku. Less plant (two diesels instead of four)

I doubt the super rapid 76mm would be a goer in RN service so it's either stick a 127mm on the nose or the more widely used 30mm in RN service. Add in CAMM instead of MICA VL (approximately cost neutral) and you could easily have done anything up to most of the stop and search stuff in Ellamy for instance.

Khareef seems to be near £130m ish (three of them for £420 including support, hard to tell)

I'm starting to warm to the idea, put it that way.

 

[RobWilliams]

You're probably right, which is a shame. It'll be 30mms all round then! swap out a 76 for a 30mm *cringe* so that'd be a bow mounted 30 and one either side, not bad for stop and search, pirate hunting + narcotics.

Some point defence AAW missiles and you're away, Portsmouth crisis solved and a brace of OPVs ready for deployment.

 

[1805]

I would rather go for 3 of the latest version of the Rivers (HTMS Krabi) but with a helicopter hanger. 2 based in the Gulf/Indian Ocean and 1 in the Caribbean. If permanently station in the locations, with crews flown out, it would massively reduce the burden on the escort force.

I couldn't see the RN going for more than a 30mm armament.

 

[StobieWan]

Works for ,me - make 'em cheap, but satisfactory for the purpose of hunting pirates and drug smugglers, keep 'em out of harm's way, that's Portsmouth's future sorted for long enough to make a sensible decision, and you'd save some wear and tear on the expensive kit.

 

[StobieWan]

I saw this picture (on Facebook) & thought that it may be worthy of a bit of discussion...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151298416093205&set=a.408795923204.185214.188183478204&type=1&theater

(For them that don't have facebook, it's a link to the UK RN's page, with a picture of either a Vanguard class, or Astute Class sub, complete with 'special forces' / DSRV pod)

SA

That still looks to be an image taken from a BBC report screened today on the Astute - it just popped up on the BBC news today, was nice to see the Astute's crew doing things related to driving submarines

 

[the concerned]

Do you think that the aaw variant of the T26 frigate will end up replacing the T45's. By the time the first T26 comes out the first T45 will be over 10yrs old so then how old will they be by the time all 13 are built plus hopefully any exports,Also do you think Saudi Arabia might go for T26 now instead of looking at the T45.

 

[StobieWan]

I wouldn't have thought that the Type 26 of any flavour would be a direct replacement for the Type 45 in the AWD role, simply because the design for Type 26 will be fairly elderly by then. They may well upgrade/update the Type 26 and then pull hardware from that, so that some stuff developed for 26 in the latter years will turn up on the T45 successor however.

 

[swerve]

I would rather go for 3 of the latest version of the Rivers (HTMS Krabi) but with a helicopter hanger. 2 based in the Gulf/Indian Ocean and 1 in the Caribbean. If permanently station in the locations, with crews flown out, it would massively reduce the burden on the escort force.

Agreed. The Lekius & Khareefs are grossly over-specified & over-armed for chasing pirates & drug smugglers. Crews are too big, too. This enlarged River variant would do nicely. Just add a hangar, as you say, & fit the RN's choice of weapons & sensors.

I couldn't see the RN going for more than a 30mm armament.

True. I'd prefer something bigger, e.g. 57mm, but 30mm is probably enough for the job.