Brazilian Naval Strength

[RobWilliams]

Yeah, BAE were saying about how the S1850 was 'redundant' because it pretty much matched the capabilities of SAMPSON, but here's a nice bit Beedall wrote about it

This claim is rather an over simplification. Some tasks are difficult to combine, for example (long range) volume search takes a lot of radar resources, leaving little room for other tasks such as targeting. Combining volume search with other tasks also results either in slow search rates or in low overall quality per task. Driving parameters in radar performance is time-on-target or observation time per beam. This is perhaps a the key reason why the Royal Navy selected the S1850M Long Range Radar to complement Sampson on the Type 45 destroyers. It is also a reason why NATO in its NATO Anti-Air Warfare System study (NAAWS) defined the preferred AAW system as consisting of a complementary Volume Search Radar and MFR. This - as NATO points out - gives the added advantage that the two systems can use two different radar frequencies; one being a good choice for long range search, the other a good choice for an MFR (which is especially nice as physics makes both tasks difficult to combine).

Navy Matters | SAMPSON MFR

In regards to FREDA, here's an old DT link i'm about to have a look through, though the last post is late 2007 but It doesn't have a VSR I don't think. IIRC it's just Herakles

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/new-details-fremm-aaw-variant-6691/

 

[StobieWan]

I'd expect something like FREMM-ER to be offered

DCNS unveils the new FREMM-ER sporting phased-array antenna and anti-ballistic missile capability


On volume search radars, well, yep, better performance, but if you're building to a price and a volume, then taking the VSR out of a frigate can save a few quid.

 

[swerve]

That's true, but could you also then say conversely that considering that Fincantieri haven't had the experience with arrestor gear (considering Cavour is STOVL I think), I mean I get it's much more complicated integrating catapults but considering the sort of experience the Brazilian Navy has had operating them then would it ultimately be more difficult to do compared to a navy with no sort of experience in any form?....

AFAIK Fincantieri's only experience of arrestor gear is through its involvement with the Indian IAC. However, that is entirely relevant experience, since any enlarged Cavour variant would incorporate the lessons learned from scaling up the design for IAC, & Fincantieri would be able to use its Indian contacts.

I would expect Fincantieri to take a good look at Sao Paulo & talk to the Marinha & the navy yard which (with help from the catapult manufacturer in Glasgow, which still has all the drawings) refurbished the catapults.

Maybe the Brazilians would be interested in picking up the work done by Converteam on EMKIT & EMCAT, & finishing it off. It would save having to install steam generators on a diesel or GT powered ship.

 

[swerve]

I'd expect something like FREMM-ER to be offered

DCNS unveils the new FREMM-ER sporting phased-array antenna and anti-ballistic missile capability.

A distinct possibility, though I wonder if it'd be offered for the full requirement or as part of a mix including GP FREMMs with Herakles. It appears to be primarily AAW, which I don't think would fit the full Brazilian requirement.

Same with T26, where I wonder if Brazil would want all of its frigates to have enhanced AAW or just some.

 

[StobieWan]

I'd say probably a mix - FREMM-ER can do the GP role but I'm sure they can save quite a few bob by taking a mix with the bulk of them GP/ASW focussed.

 

[RobWilliams]

What do you guys think about the idea of Brazil potentially buying 2 slightly enlarged Cavour? If they can get enough of a decent price that is.

The advantages 2 offer over 1 are well known, but then when you consider what sort of international deployments Brazil does, would it be worth it for them to do it?

EDIT: A mix of all seem the most reasonable, I wouldn't advocate them picking the Italian 'GP' version. Chances are they'll either pick French or Italian rather than a mixture and France is offering the FREDA/FREDA-ER, i'd pick a selection of FREDA + make up the rest in French ASW variants as it comes fitted with 16 A70 cells as standard - compared to 'fitted for, but not with' with the Italian GP - and I expect it'd be an easier job integrating the Oto 127/64 from the GP onto a French ASW variant then adding A70s to the GP considering the mix of different equipment?

Of course, i'd naturally advocate picking the T26 for filling GP/ASW roles, and AAW if it's got what it takes

 

[1805]

There can be a tendency to talk our capability down, we have a great carrier design with 2 units building (if I had my way a 3rd as well). The Italians have experience with a smaller ship, not a larger design. The Brazilians probably have a lot more knowledge of cat/traps, they must have been operating/maintaining them for 40 years+.

The UK Government should set some clear expectations of BAE in the export market, particularly around Type 26/CVF/Brazil. If they don't land anything, there has to be a question mark over their capability to perform in the naval export space. Equally if this was the case there should be some questions as to the value for money they offer the RN and the appropriateness of them continuing as sole guardians of the RN's shipbuilding capability.

 

[RobWilliams]

Cavour is only small depending on where you set the bar, it's small compared to the US, France and now the UK with CVF but it's a bigger ship than the Invincibles and is very similar in dimensions and tonnage as Sao Paulo. Before the CVF came about it could easily be argued that BAE didn't have experience with a "large" design for a carrier and by your own words she's come out quite nicely, so I wouldn't put it past the Italians to be able to do the same.

Fincantieri - like swerve said - are currently working on INS Vikrant which is in the 40,000t range, i'm fairly sure they're doing a lot of work with propulsion systems integration but i'm also fairly sure they've done a fair bit in regards to the overall design of INS Vikrant, must be doing something right.

Even looking at Cavour, if the ship size was increased to cope with catapults & arrestor gear and associated systems like power sources for the catapult (steam or electric?) then I expect they'll have a design Brazil would quite like, a ship physically similar in dimensions to Sao Paulo meaning the infrastructure for maintenance would remain the same, with a more efficient crew and a better airgroup compared to Sao Paulo & conventionally powered. I could easily see that happening, I highly expect that Brazil would also highly appreciate being able to have a big input in regards to CATOBAR gear details and the like considering their experience operating them for years (and the modernisation work done in the mid 2000s dealing with a lot of that stuff) compared to what Fincantieri has.

Also, considering CVF was meant to be a joint French/British project and the French dropped out due to cost I wouldn't get highly optimistic about it's export potential (if it was ever there?). I'd love to read the news tomorrow and see that Brazil ordered 1 (or 2), but I'm just trying to keep it down to earth here.

 

[swerve]

...
Fincantieri - like swerve said - are currently working on INS Vikrant which is in the 40,000t range, i'm fairly sure they're doing a lot of work with propulsion systems integration but i'm also fairly sure they've done a fair bit in regards to the overall design of INS Vikrant, must be doing something right.....

There are two separate design consultancy contracts. One covering propulsion, awarded to Avio (supplier of Cavour propulsion, & the GTs for Vikrant), & one covering overall design, awarded to Fincantieri.

 

[RobWilliams]

Ahhhhh I see, I thought those were the circumstances so it's good to have them validated.

Who knows, might go to Fincantieri for a couple fleet tankers too.

 

[1805]

Cavour is only small depending on where you set the bar, it's small compared to the US, France and now the UK with CVF but it's a bigger ship than the Invincibles and is very similar in dimensions and tonnage as Sao Paulo. Before the CVF came about it could easily be argued that BAE didn't have experience with a "large" design for a carrier and by your own words she's come out quite nicely, so I wouldn't put it past the Italians to be able to do the same.

Fincantieri - like swerve said - are currently working on INS Vikrant which is in the 40,000t range, i'm fairly sure they're doing a lot of work with propulsion systems integration but i'm also fairly sure they've done a fair bit in regards to the overall design of INS Vikrant, must be doing something right.

Even looking at Cavour, if the ship size was increased to cope with catapults & arrestor gear and associated systems like power sources for the catapult (steam or electric?) then I expect they'll have a design Brazil would quite like, a ship physically similar in dimensions to Sao Paulo meaning the infrastructure for maintenance would remain the same, with a more efficient crew and a better airgroup compared to Sao Paulo & conventionally powered. I could easily see that happening, I highly expect that Brazil would also highly appreciate being able to have a big input in regards to CATOBAR gear details and the like considering their experience operating them for years (and the modernisation work done in the mid 2000s dealing with a lot of that stuff) compared to what Fincantieri has.

Also, considering CVF was meant to be a joint French/British project and the French dropped out due to cost I wouldn't get highly optimistic about it's export potential (if it was ever there?). I'd love to read the news tomorrow and see that Brazil ordered 1 (or 2), but I'm just trying to keep it down to earth here.

If they want anything other than the exact design of the Cavour, it pretty much equal. I am sure they are aware of the limitations of a carrier that size operating in CATOBAR/STOBAR configuration. The Brazilian Navy has a strong connection with the RN, most ships coming from UK origin/design.

Steel is cheap and welding it together in Brazil should be cheap as as well, and unlike the UK they fully understand the employment case.

Its not in the bag, but it's a lot more equal that being presented here, I have seen good salesmen climb a lot higher mountains. Time BAE showed a bit of the Nelson spirit...... if they fail they should be rewarded like Admiral Byng.

 

[RobWilliams]

Well they've been operating a carrier roughly the same size as Cavour in CATOBAR config for a while now so they don't seem to have particularly big issues about it, otherwise they'd have ditched her earlier IMO.

I'm not expecting CVF to get export sales, something smaller then maybe but I don't have any expectations about how many of her we sell as long as we get a pair.

My money is on - if we're on about something other than a Cavour is a DCNS proposal, 52000t, CATOBAR, conventional propulsion, airgroup of 38, 5 week endurance, 5000 - 9000 nm range.

That's what i'd bet on, they've already got very good connections with DCNS due to the 4 Scorpenes and work on an SSN based on the Barracuda class. Better connections that BAE has and has the potential to be offered in a package with FREMM/FREDA/BRAVE RAS ship, a more complete package than BAE can offer and comparable to any potential Italian package IMO, but until we know the final specs of T26 we can't really make the comparison seriously with T26/AAW T26/MARS (or Wave derivative),

 

[Spacearrow99]

Well they've been operating a carrier roughly the same size as Cavour in CATOBAR config for a while now so they don't seem to have particularly big issues about it, otherwise they'd have ditched her earlier IMO.

I'm not expecting CVF to get export sales, something smaller then maybe but I don't have any expectations about how many of her we sell as long as we get a pair.

My money is on - if we're on about something other than a Cavour is a DCNS proposal, 52000t, CATOBAR, conventional propulsion, airgroup of 38, 5 week endurance, 5000 - 9000 nm range.

That's what i'd bet on, they've already got very good connections with DCNS due to the 4 Scorpenes and work on an SSN based on the Barracuda class. Better connections that BAE has and has the potential to be offered in a package with FREMM/FREDA/BRAVE RAS ship, a more complete package than BAE can offer and comparable to any potential Italian package IMO, but until we know the final specs of T26 we can't really make the comparison seriously with T26/AAW T26/MARS (or Wave derivative),

The SSN could a variant Scorpene Class or Barracuda class. Yes, DCNS would be the choice, If Brazil wants a complete package deal. Plus, France would more than likely share the development costs of the DCNS carrier proposal, since they need another carrier.

 

[RobWilliams]

Doubt it. The MN threw out the PA-2 partly because it wasn't designed to be nuclear compatible and the costs to make it so would've been too big, so why on earth would they enter the same situation (i.e one wants conventional and the other nuclear) with Brazil if the cost of changing the design to accomodate nuclear propulsion would still exist and Brazil will NOT go the nuclear route?

The last I heard was that it'll probably be an enlarged Scorpene (with a bigger displacement than a Barracuda I think?) with nuclear propulsion, sounds about right. Thinking it through not sure France would be too keen selling their own SSN designs about.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Doubt it. The MN threw out the PA-2 partly because it wasn't designed to be nuclear compatible and the costs to make it so would've been too big, so why on earth would they enter the same situation (i.e one wants conventional and the other nuclear) with Brazil if the cost of changing the design to accomodate nuclear propulsion would still exist and Brazil will NOT go the nuclear route?

The last I heard was that it'll probably be an enlarged Scorpene (with a bigger displacement than a Barracuda I think?) with nuclear propulsion, sounds about right. Thinking it through not sure France would be too keen selling their own SSN designs about.

The MN did not like the design of the CVF, and the French government didn't like its workshare in the deal. The MN knows a new French CVN would a bit cost more then the CDG because of new nuclear safety regulations. Along, with the fact that most of its fleet is being replaced at this time, and the French Army and Air Force have their own major procuremtn prosjects, so money would be tight. I think the nuclear argument was a way to get out of the deal. A conventional carrier deal with Brazil would be good move for the MN.

 

[1805]

The MN did not like the design of the CVF, and the French government didn't like its workshare in the deal. The MN knows a new French CVN would a bit cost more then the CDG because of new nuclear safety regulations. Along, with the fact that most of its fleet is being replaced at this time, and the French Army and Air Force have their own major procuremtn prosjects, so money would be tight. I think the nuclear argument was a way to get out of the deal. A conventional carrier deal with Brazil would be good move for the MN.

Is France likely to be able to afford a carrier in the timescales Brazil is likely to need. BAE should have a good arguement if it can be bothered, something like this:

- STOBAR will work better with a bigger ship, you don't want to cheap on your key asset.
- By the time the French/Italian have knocked up an untried design it will be cheaper to buy this off the shelf one
- Oh how are the French doing on the sub project...all ok!!
- These are big projects....India has had delays, I'm sure it's nothing to do with the Italians....have you heard the one about that old Russian carrier ;-)
- Steel is cheap and it will create lots of local jobs
- These last 50 years for an extral 13-15,000t, probably less than the cost of 3 OPVs, you can get something as good as the RN has.
- We can lend you one if you needed it before you complete
- How about a Embraer BAE merger along the way!

 

[StobieWan]

Really depends on what the Brazilians want out a carrier - I suspect they won't want to go to STOBAR after CATOBAR ops - they've got experience and skills in doing the hard stuff, so what ever they get will likely be CATOBAR.
The size will be driven by ops tempo and wing size, as well as, to some extent, the footprint of the aircraft selected.

 

[swerve]

1. They don't want STOBAR. They want cat & trap. Nobody has convincingly demonstrated the feasibility of fixed-wing AEW & COD using STOBAR, & Brazil has & wants to keep both. Brazil also wants full performance from its carrier combat aircraft.

2. We can't lend them one, since they won't have any aircraft which will be able to use our carriers. They may be able to take off using the ski-jump, but they won't be able to land because of the lack of arrestor gear.

3. It doesn't matter how many other arguments in support of CVF you muster if it falls over on 1). That is the killer.


As for India's carrier, it really does have nothing to do with the Italians, & there is no parallel with Gorshkov. In case you've forgotten, that was a rebuild of a damaged & neglected ship with no co-operation from the builders. IAC is a new build.

The delays are all in build, which India is doing. The Italians were hired for design. The first (& long) delay was because the Indians couldn't get steel of the right grade. The Russians couldn't supply it, & India didn't have a mill able to make steel of that grade. They had to acquire the ability to make the steel before they could start building. I think the Italians offered to source steel from abroad (Italian mills could have delivered quickly), but the Indians refused, perhaps because of price. There's also been failure to fund construction steadily, leading to stop-start, booking another ship into the building dock so the hull has had to be floated out incomplete, and so on.

As I said, nothing to do with the Italians.

Why would Embraer want to slit its own throat by shackling itself to BAe?

If they want anything other than the exact design of the Cavour, it pretty much equal. I am sure they are aware of the limitations of a carrier that size operating in CATOBAR/STOBAR configuration.

It's been explained to you how Fincantieri has already helped design a bigger Cavour derivative, with arresting gear. It can turn out one on its own rather easily. The only complication is modifying the design for catapults. BTW, Fincantieri & DCNS both have lower build costs than BAe.

The Brazilian Navy has a strong connection with the RN, most ships coming from UK origin/design.

Count again.

British designed or build: Nine frigates, one training ship, two landing ships, two minesweepers used as patrol craft, two survey ships. Three OPVs just bought because Trinidad didn't want to accept them.

Others: One aircraft carrier (French), five submarines (German design) plus four ordered (French), five corvettes (Brazilian), two landing ships (USA), two tankers (Brazil), about 30 patrol vessels & minesweepers (plus four French-designed building), & at least 15 auxiliaries.

Plus a large fleet of river vessels, including auxiliaries (tanker, hospital ship, etc), none of which are British.

 

[Spacearrow99]

Is France likely to be able to afford a carrier in the timescales Brazil is likely to need. BAE should have a good arguement if it can be bothered, something like this:

- STOBAR will work better with a bigger ship, you don't want to cheap on your key asset.
- By the time the French/Italian have knocked up an untried design it will be cheaper to buy this off the shelf one
- Oh how are the French doing on the sub project...all ok!!
- These are big projects....India has had delays, I'm sure it's nothing to do with the Italians....have you heard the one about that old Russian carrier ;-)
- Steel is cheap and it will create lots of local jobs
- These last 50 years for an extral 13-15,000t, probably less than the cost of 3 OPVs, you can get something as good as the RN has.
- We can lend you one if you needed it before you complete
- How about a Embraer BAE merger along the way!

The pace of the Brazilian Air Force F-X2 program, a decision on a carrier program would take years. So construction would take place around the end of this decade or the beginning of the next. And Most of France's major procurement projects would be halfway completed or completed by then. By then, France could easily afford a new carrier. On the carrier side, If the Rafale wins the F-X2 program, France would win a potential future carrier deal. The two countries have alot ties and have very good relations with eachother.

 

[StobieWan]

If the Brazilians have any sense then they'll spread the deal around a bit - the French have lost at least one deal in the past by trying to lump everything into a single agreement.

I have to admit, both Fincantieri and DCNS have both shown better marketing flair in the past than anything BAE have demonstrated.

I doubt BAE can swing a carrier deal however - ACA doesn't come with a tremendous gloss I suspect (although I do feel they've delivered everything they've been funded for and asked to do)

I do suspect you'll see a few vendors involved - you could easily see a wing of French aircraft flying off Italian carriers, escorted by UK frigates, specified with Euro AA missiles, UK local area defence and French anti shipping missiles, supported by Thales UK surface to air missiles, covered by DCNS subs.