What Assault Rifle - British Army Should Replace SA-80 A2 With?

[RobWilliams]

There's no point telling me i've got a fallacy in my argument, you may as well call me out on it.

That's pretty much the opposite of my experience with servicemen, from my experience with them they seem to like it well enough and all the material i've watched or read about (in regards to the L85A2) point to it being a decent enough weapon and far superior to the L85A1.

When you say your uncle nearly got killed by it, I assume it was in a firefight and his weapon jammed and it was the A1?

If so, that situation probably happens to all sorts of servicemen of all nationalities of all countries currently on the frontline but does that automatically mean the weapon is bad I've seen many a case of the GPMG (itself a hugely reliable weapon) jamming from tank crews in Iraq exposing themselves to infantry attack at close quaters, did that chance their opinion of it? No it did not. Then the fact that the A2 is far superior to the A1 in terms of reliability should be brought in there too.

I'm sure there are plenty of US servicemen who have experienced their service rifle jamming in action but does that therefore mean it's a crap weapon?

We can't bring in a weapon to suit every soldier perfectly, it won't happen. Every weapon in the world has a camp that heavily supports and a camp which heavily opposes.

 

[masio]

There's no point telling me i've got a fallacy in my argument, you may as well call me out on it.

That's pretty much the opposite of my experience with servicemen, from my experience with them they seem to like it well enough and all the material i've watched or read about (in regards to the L85A2) point to it being a decent enough weapon and far superior to the L85A1.

When you say your uncle nearly got killed by it, I assume it was in a firefight and his weapon jammed and it was the A1?

If so, that situation probably happens to all sorts of servicemen of all nationalities of all countries currently on the frontline but does that automatically mean the weapon is bad I've seen many a case of the GPMG (itself a hugely reliable weapon) jamming from tank crews in Iraq exposing themselves to infantry attack at close quaters, did that chance their opinion of it? No it did not. Then the fact that the A2 is far superior to the A1 in terms of reliability should be brought in there too.

I'm sure there are plenty of US servicemen who have experienced their service rifle jamming in action but does that therefore mean it's a crap weapon?

We can't bring in a weapon to suit every soldier perfectly, it won't happen. Every weapon in the world has a camp that heavily supports and a camp which heavily opposes.

My uncle wasn't nearly killed in a fire fight. He's raf and a weapon discharged when it wasn't surpost to because the safety tripped. I've used the sa 80 and I just hate them. And you rule is look after your rifle and it will look after you. Any way I'm going into a PMC career so sa 80 are not really my problem. I'm just expressing my opinion. The reason I first said m4 is that is my personal weapon of choice and I think it should just be changed.

 

[RobWilliams]

Things like that happen, wasn't the first time a weapon discharged when supposedly safe and won't be the last either.

By all means express an opinion, it's what we're here for All I'm trying to do is understand if there's actually any real reason other than personal preference for replacing the service rifle of an entire nation.

Could you point out the earlier fallacy in my post please, i'm always looking to futher my knowledge so I'd appreciate what exactly I said is a false presumption.

 

[masio]

Things like that happen, wasn't the first time a weapon discharged when supposedly safe and won't be the last either.

By all means express an opinion, it's what we're here for All I'm trying to do is understand if there's actually any real reason other than personal preference for replacing the service rifle of an entire nation.

Could you point out the earlier fallacy in my post please, i'm always looking to futher my knowledge so I'd appreciate what exactly I said is a false presumption.[/QUOTE

I don't trust. Everyone I know don't trust it. And I like to have a charging handle that stays on and dosen't fall off. The weapon has no tcr therefore it's hard to put attachments on it. And the SUSAT looks like a dick but the iron sights are good. And the slappy paddle looks gay!

There's a word for what the fallacy was. I come up with it at some point tomorrow

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I never even knew a leftie version existed, always thought it was a case of if you use it left handed you're gunna get hot cartridges ejecting into your face.

If you fire a Steyr AUG (F88) from the left shoulder you will get a hot shell case ejected towards you. Which isn’t such a bad thing.

But the SA-80 (L85) is different. If you fire it from the left shoulder and are attempting to aim through the sight you will get the reciprocating charge handle in the teeth. It’s just not something you can do. AFAIK there have never been any left hand SA-80s built because it is such a huge change to the weapon. Unlike the AUG which just has a different bolt with a left hand ejector.

The designers of the SA-80 just took an Armalite AR-18 and moved the trigger to in front of the magazine. This and cost cutting around the edges has been the cause of all its problems. While a pretty crap rifle it still works and the bullet from an SA-80 is pretty indistinguishable from a bullet from a much better quality rifle. You’d never go out and chose an SA-80 but you could still use one to win a fight or two if it was all you had.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here's a brief video on what Andy McNab thinks about it, if you like the man or not either way he was in the SAS so his opinion on firearms - to me - seems like a solid judgement as i've personally had zero experience with the SA80 series, or in fact any type of full automatic weapon.

Andy McNab Explains the SA80 - YouTube

Does he explain why in the movie he has a magnetic compass attached to his rifle!

 

[RobWilliams]

Well I guess we just know different circles of people, like I said all the people I know can't speak highly enough of it.

I wasn't asking for what the word of it was, I was asking you to directly point out what excatly I said was wrong.

 

[RobWilliams]

Does he explain why in the movie he has a magnetic compass attached to his rifle!

I know I know

There's loads of iffy stuff about the man, but if he was talking about an M4 or AUG or whatever and the bonus point + drawbacks of a particular weapon system then personally I'd be quite happy to take that point. He's ex-SAS so whilst B20 does show hinky stuff at points i'd take ~18 years of service more than that

 

[masio]

Does he explain why in the movie he has a magnetic compass attached to his rifle!

I've fired the cadet one with the bolt on top and your right about watching out for the charging handle. The left handed variant I used wasn't a true sa 80.

 

[masio]

At the end of the day we are all men who like different guns and we will always stand behind our favroite one and will for ever ague. For example I like my m4. It's the weapon I use in airsoft and the weapon I intend to use as an PMC. You guys like what you do and will support it. So happy days to us all.

And remember keep your powder fry and your eye on the target!

Argument ended

 

[RobWilliams]

For example I like my m4. It's the weapon I use in airsoft and the weapon I intend to use as an PMC.

So that's the basis of your personal preference? That's all I wanted to know.

Argument ended

Doesn't work like that mate, brown mods are the guys who decide when an argument is truely ended

 

[masio]

So that's the basis of your personal preference? That's all I wanted to know.



Doesn't work like that mate, brown mods are the guys who decide when an argument is truely ended

Fair enough

 

[Bonza]

At the end of the day we are all men who like different guns and we will always stand behind our favroite one and will for ever ague. For example I like my m4. It's the weapon I use in airsoft and the weapon I intend to use as an PMC. You guys like what you do and will support it. So happy days to us all.

Can I ask what experience you have with the weapon outside of airsoft? Because you're making some pretty bold statements - I'm curious how much weight is behind them.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

There's loads of iffy stuff about the man,

I wouldn't say that. "Andy McNab" is the real deal. But movies are movies...

 

[Raven22]

At the end of the day we are all men who like different guns and we will always stand behind our favroite one and will for ever ague. For example I like my m4. It's the weapon I use in airsoft and the weapon I intend to use as an PMC. You guys like what you do and will support it. So happy days to us all

Are you sure you're a man? Not a soon to be man? You're on a forum that has people with long military experience who have use these sort of weapons in actual combat, and you are basing opinions off airsoft? All opinions are not equal.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I wouldn't say that. "Andy McNab" is the real deal. But movies are movies...

Most of the specials think he's a knob...

I can give some horror stories about him from where he was hired as a consultant ....

there's quite a few UK specials who also subscribe to my first comment - and dispute his version of events of B2Z

not for a public forum though.....

 

[gf0012-aust]

At the end of the day we are all men who like different guns and we will always stand behind our favroite one and will for ever ague. For example I like my m4. It's the weapon I use in airsoft and the weapon I intend to use as an PMC. You guys like what you do and will support it. So happy days to us all.

And remember keep your powder fry and your eye on the target!

Argument ended

Seriously? Note that the people with Blue Handles are DefProfs - IOW they either have or have had a day job in the military...

so when they're commenting, they're invariably commenting based on their own actual experiences - and in real world situations where they have gotten shot at or shoot back on the job

thats a bit stronger in supporting their comments. airsoft/paintball is not even remotely close to that experience base

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I just tried to find out something about this rifle compass thing. And discovered a web forum dedicated to movie firearms. Very interesting stuff about the film Bravo Two Zero, which was filmed in South Africa, and many others but no answer about the compass. For example one of the Minimis used in the movie was actually a prototype with a downwards angled wire stock! Didn’t notice that.

Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games

 

[StobieWan]

It probably "looked cool" on film.

I've never shot the SA80 so can't comment from personal experience but I can speak to the generalities and agree it started off with a poor reputation in terms of build quality, but after it's rework by H&K, it's got a fairly solid reputation in service.The left handed issue doesn't just affect lefties by the way - in CQB, it's not unknown for troops to want to take up a weak hand shooting stance to aim around cover. With the SA80, that's not an option.

For now, we've just chucked a shed load of money at the thing, in terms of sites, rails, UGL, and so forth - we may as well run the thing on til we can pick a winner in quieter times which fits the bill.

There's some interesting developments afoot in firearms, particularly with the telescoped ammunition being explored for the squad assault weapon in the US - if we can hang on for a few more years, we can see if 5.56 still has legs.

There are undoubtedly nicer designs on the market - and picking something that allowed easy calibre changes might be interesting for general use (SCAR springs to mind for instance)

Right now, we're just drawing down from a marathon series of active deployments - let's get the rifles back, buff 'em up, see what we own that works and go from there.

In terms of lethality, I refer folk to the story of a 19 year old private from the Prince of Wales Royal Regiment, who pulled off three kills with three rounds in a rolling contact in Iraq - if you can get that sort of result with any random recruit then 5.56 seems to work when you actually hit what you're aiming at.

The M4 is contentious in itself - it may yet be the shortest lived service weapon in US history since the M14 (in general issue!) - there's certainly plenty of pressure to swap it out in favour of something else. Actually, I'd take a wild guess and bet that the majority of service weapons are subject to campaigns about "wow, get rid of it now, it sucks..." I've certainly heard of US troops handling the SA80 and quite fancying it...

 

[Bonza]

I don't know if the M4 (or at least the 5.56mm) will be going anywhere any time soon, considering the US has developed the M855A1, an ammunition type optimised specifically for carbine length barrels that has apparently shown excellent performance next to the standard M855, which was originally intended to be fired from the M16's 20-inch barrel.

Not sure if other 5.56mm users will be taking up the M855A1 specifically but based on that and the USMC's 5.56mm SOST round it seems like the calibre is quite capable of being stepped up in lethality, which I think increases the viability of existing in-service weapons. Certainly replacing the L85A2 with another, similar 5.56mm rifle seems like a tremendous waste of money to me.