What Assault Rifle - British Army Should Replace SA-80 A2 With?

[Eeshaan]

G36K?? That wouldn't have been my first guess for a replacement, I would have said M416 but I reckon we can wait till 2020 since we've spent so much improving it since 2008. I do like the G36 series of weapons though.

The G36k replacement talk was before the A2 upgrade. The govt. chose to go for the upgraded version of the L-85, the L85A2, instead of the G36.

So they contracted Heckler & Koch ( the same company that makes th G36) to conduct the upgrade program on the L-85. The reliability issues have been taken care of, but the rifle is still not as light as the G36....

 

[Eeshaan]

Oh by the way, I believe that if they really want to go for another rifle now, they should go for the HK 416 series.

it functions just like the M16, but bereft of all the reliability and jamming problems that the weapon was infamous for. Also, it is a rather modular weapon, with different variants ( with a larger caliber 7.62mm version the 417).

IMHO if they wanna go for a bullpup rifle, they should go for the Tavor 21. But that's just me being biased hahaha.

Personally I don't think the govt. will want to spend more money on a new rifle procurement programme if the current one is functioning just fine and doing it's job without too much of a hassle.

 

[the concerned]

What would be wrong with purchasing more sharpshooter rifles to slowly replace the current assault rifles and also go with the mk48 saw which is also 7.62 rather than 5.56.

 

[swerve]

You think the entire army should have sniper rifles, & it should give up on personal automatic rifles?

 

[Volkodav]

You think the entire army should have sniper rifles, & it should give up on personal automatic rifles?

I don't know about that but it is clear the traditional concept of a standard service rifle is changing. There are more specialist weapons within modern armies than at any other time, SAW, AR, DMR, grenade launchers many more than I could list. I suppose the a standard rifle is actually less important than it once was and it is probably only a mater of time before it disappears.

Maybe it will be recast as a standard PDW of some sort, suitable for CQB and self defence rather than a larger, heavier assault rifle or carbine. Effective out to 300m suitable for building entry etc. light enough to be a secondary to a long rifle, AR or grenade launcher, suitable for use by vehicle and weapon crews. Just an idea.

 

[RobWilliams]

The requirements of the standard service rifle are always changing, but personally I can't forsee the end of the standard service rifle. There's always going to be a requirement for a standard rifle, even if it is financial to not pay for all the extra toys.

It's a funny thing, making the transition from SLR to L85A2 then heading elements back to the 7.62, kinda makes you wonder about the future of the L86A2 as I understand that's what used to be the DMR for the infantry.

As an aside, the L85A2 does come in an even shorter carbine variant, the L22 carbine, I've read reports of Apache pilots storing them in the cockpit which seems unusual.

 

[Eeshaan]

You think the entire army should have sniper rifles, & it should give up on personal automatic rifles?

I think he's referring to something like the M14 or the SLR. A slower rate of fire, but with a heavier round for better penetration. A heavier caliber round, not a sniper rifle in general, I think

 

[Volkodav]

I think he's referring to something like the M14 or the SLR. A slower rate of fire, but with a heavier round for better penetration. The a heavier caliber round, not a sniper rifle in general, I think

Really it all comes down to who and where you are fighting. 300m from 5.56 is fine in close terrain but as Afghanistan has shown having the ability to reach out to 600m is a must for open terrain. A standard service rifle needs to be a small and light as possible to permit the carriage of gear specific to the current environment. That's why I was suggesting a PDW then issue SAW or GPMG, DMR and GL as required.

I note the USMC has introduced a new AR, the M27, to replace the SAW at fire team, squad and platoon level. Based on the HK416 this weapon will likely eventually also be deployed as a DMR in addition to its current SAW/AR role, which will see perhaps two per fire team. That said its is still not as small and handy as a carbine or assault rifle needs to be so is unlikely to be standardised as the new service rifle.

Its a hard one, there are many very good reasons to standardise but probably just as many not to. The short term answer is probably a family of weapons with a high level of commonality in components and ergonomics available in different barrel lengths and weights, as well as calibres. Long term, well I suspect that will depend on cost and technology.

 

[StobieWan]

The requirements of the standard service rifle are always changing, but personally I can't forsee the end of the standard service rifle. There's always going to be a requirement for a standard rifle, even if it is financial to not pay for all the extra toys.

It's a funny thing, making the transition from SLR to L85A2 then heading elements back to the 7.62, kinda makes you wonder about the future of the L86A2 as I understand that's what used to be the DMR for the infantry.

As an aside, the L85A2 does come in an even shorter carbine variant, the L22 carbine, I've read reports of Apache pilots storing them in the cockpit which seems unusual.

I think that's a standard fit now - if you look at the interview with Prince Harry, he points out the storage cubby/holder what have you just to the right of the CP/G seat. Ed Macy refers to carrying one on his flights, which was then quite unorthodox but it looks to have caught on.

I always got the impression from Ed's books that his E&E plan was to kill main and disfigure anything that wasn't blue force in a 500 meter radius of him and sit on a pile of corpses, ready for rescue. Which I admire immensely

 

[StobieWan]

What would be wrong with purchasing more sharpshooter rifles to slowly replace the current assault rifles and also go with the mk48 saw which is also 7.62 rather than 5.56.

Um..because we're sitting on hundred thousand plus perfectly functional assault weapons, with enough rails, sites, UGL's etc to fit out more troops than we can field in a combat operation ?

And why go Mk48 SAW when we're knee deep in GPMG's ?

 

[Marc 1]

And why go Mk48 SAW when we're knee deep in GPMG's ?

26 cm shorter, 3,6kg lighter comes to mind. Ever performed fire and movement with a Mag-58?

 

[StobieWan]

26 cm shorter, 3,6kg lighter comes to mind. Ever performed fire and movement with a Mag-58?

We've already got SAW in the inventory however - you'd be replacing the 5.56 SAW with a 7.62 version, which seems to duplicate the GPMG function. I take your point about the Mk48 being lighter but that looks like a shed load of cash to replace weapons already in service that seem to work.

Added to which, the Mk48 is a bit heavier than the SAW...


I'd sooner hang on and see where LSAT goes, see if that's useful and make a decision from there.

 

[the concerned]

Doesn't the sharpshooter also have the ability to carry stuff like ugl's. Is all the automatic fire neccesary when you could have longer range selective fire and if you need sustained fire why not increase the ratio of saw's. what i was trying to get at is we already know that the 7.62mm does the job we need why spend more money on a competition when we already have the answer.

 

[StobieWan]

Doesn't the sharpshooter also have the ability to carry stuff like ugl's. Is all the automatic fire neccesary when you could have longer range selective fire and if you need sustained fire why not increase the ratio of saw's. what i was trying to get at is we already know that the 7.62mm does the job we need why spend more money on a competition when we already have the answer.

Because 7.62 was a poor compromise from birth - read back over the thread to see why - there's a very good potted history by Mr Gubler for instance.

From memory the DMR is the Stoner SR-25 with minor tweaks - it's very accurate but it's not particularly handy for CQB, getting in and out or aircraft or vehicles, and whacking a UGL on the front is really going to weigh things down.


I suspect it's also quite a bit more expensive than the alternatives. We're seeing some good performance from recently fielded rounds in 5.56, particularly when driven through a relatively lengthy barrel as with the SA80 - lets just hang on and see what pops up in the coming years. I've mentioned LSAT as being quite interesting because it seems to be delivering a 30% reduction in ammunition weight for the same calibre, using relatively straightforward solutions. We're talking a sub 5Kg SAW equivalent, with reduced recoil.

We could wait just a bit and see if that delivers.

 

[RobWilliams]

From memory the DMR is the Stoner SR-25 with minor tweaks - it's very accurate but it's not particularly handy for CQB, getting in and out or aircraft or vehicles, and whacking a UGL on the front is really going to weigh things down.

Law Enforcement International LM7

In terms of weight, a L85A2 loaded with an 'optical sight', probably a SUSAT comes up to near as makes no difference 5kg. The LM7 is 4.5kg without a sight & unloaded so adding that hefty sight & 20 rounds of burly 7.62's going to make it heavier i'd bet. Add on a UGL which the same source puts at 1.12kg and you're gunna have a fun* time carrying that around.

*warning, may not actually be fun

 

[Doom Pig]

I think he's referring to something like the M14 or the SLR. A slower rate of fire, but with a heavier round for better penetration. A heavier caliber round, not a sniper rifle in general, I think

Being a total noob ... can someone tell me why the UK'ers shouldn't take up the XM-8 project and show us US-ians how it should've gone?

(I'd provide a link to the system, but am a bit too noob for that)

 

[Eeshaan]

Being a total noob ... can someone tell me why the UK'ers shouldn't take up the XM-8 project and show us US-ians how it should've gone?

(I'd provide a link to the system, but am a bit too noob for that)

THe XM-8 project was also based on the G36 rifle. But it was cancelled due to budget concerns a long time ago. I don't think that project is gonna be revived anytime soon...

 

[SteelTiger 177]

I think the FN SCAR would make a good replace ment for the SA80 rifle. With it you have the option of upgrading from 5.56 to 6.5mm ammo which has the same weight as the 5.56 but also the reach and stopping power of the 7.62 round.Also I'm courious how can the Galil assault rifle be considered as part of the AK family of assault rifles and why would anyone give considderation to the AK at all?

 

[Bonza]

I don't understand why this thread is still open or relevant at all... have the British Army announced a competition to replace the L85A2? Have there been significant reports of deficiencies in the weapon post-refit? Is it not performing well in Afghanistan? Why pay an enormous amount of money to replace it with yet another 5.56mm assault rifle when it does the job perfectly fine on its own?

It just seems like this thread has become a gun porn discussion and unless someone can indicate its value as a military discussion to me, it's getting closed.

 

[RobWilliams]

There's been a slight relevant bit of news in the UK about it, from the Daily Mail however.

SAS to use bigger bullets to kill enemy outright after claiming 'shoot-to-wound' policy put their lives at risk | Mail Online

Supposedly the SAS are trialling 7.62 firearms including the SCAR-H which will - again, supposedly - replace the current 5.56 C-8 service rifle.