Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

[Andri F]

So... The PN is supposed to arm the Hamilton-class cutters: Philippine Navy to arm US-acquired ships

"...the Gregorio del Pilar’s weapons system would be upgraded with Harpoon antiship missiles—described as a modern, all-weather, over-the-horizon defense system. "

I wonder how costly this will be. For sure the Harpoon needs a radar/fire control to support it.

I think since the Hamilton class was built to inter-operate with USN ships, it might be able to integrate the Harpoon. Besides, I think its great news. Harpoons for our Navy and probably for our future Air Force.

 

[Blackshoe]

I think since the Hamilton class was built to inter-operate with USN ships, it might be able to integrate the Harpoon. Besides, I think its great news. Harpoons for our Navy and probably for our future Air Force.

As I remember the original story (based off a Jane's entry on them from 2007 World's Combat Ships, IIRC), the class was designed with Harpoon-capability. USCGC MELLON (WHEC-717) was actually equipped as a test-bed and carried Harpoons. I believe all it would really need would be the SWG-1 Fire Control computer for Harpoons to be employed.

I'm not sure this does that much to upgrade the BRP Gregorio del Pilar. Some upgrades to give it a minimum of effective point air-defense capability would be really useful, as well. It's a step in the right direction, though.

 

[Griffin]

As I remember the original story (based off a Jane's entry on them from 2007 World's Combat Ships, IIRC), the class was designed with Harpoon-capability. USCGC MELLON (WHEC-717) was actually equipped as a test-bed and carried Harpoons. I believe all it would really need would be the SWG-1 Fire Control computer for Harpoons to be employed.

I'm not sure this does that much to upgrade the BRP Gregorio del Pilar. Some upgrades to give it a minimum of effective point air-defense capability would be really useful, as well. It's a step in the right direction, though.

Hi Sirs,

A newbee here. It was discussed in Philippine defense foums and local news about upgrading the defense capabilities of the "Goyo" (BRP Gregorio del Pilar) and the upcoming Alcaraz items mentioned are Mod. 38 25mm chain gun and new sensors - no complete and concrete details though. For now, it is still on paper. But I am hopeful that the PN would have the equipment and armament as mentioned earlier, after some time. I came across and read somewhere Harpoons were actually deployed and fired from Hamilton Class Cutters. (I'll post the link when I can find it, thanks.)

 

[fretburner]

^ That chain gun is a nice addition. Still, it can't defend from anti-ship missiles. But like the other guy said... It's a step in the right directions.

Weren't the the FCS and Air-search radar (if it had one at all?) removed from the BRP Gregorio Del Pilar? Buying Harpoons would mean buying its associated FCS.

 

[Griffin]

^ That chain gun is a nice addition. Still, it can't defend from anti-ship missiles. But like the other guy said... It's a step in the right directions.

Weren't the the FCS and Air-search radar (if it had one at all?) removed from the BRP Gregorio Del Pilar? Buying Harpoons would mean buying its associated FCS.

Yes sir, that is correct. It is not like the removed Phalanx CIWS present in US cutters. It is intended for ship-self protection (for surface threats, not missiles) (BTW, its MK38 Mod. 2 chain gun and to be made available by late 2013 for use on RP's newly acquired cutters)

According to Philippine defence forum sites, its air search radars (I think - AN/SPS 40) were removed along with some equipment (CIWS). Yes, buying harpoons should include all the bells and whistles for the ship. Small steps, sir, hopefully to achieve a ship with better armament besides the Oto Melara 76mm and a few smaller guns. Thanks.

 

[israeli]

the Philippine Navy has decided to defer the acquisition of a third Hamilton class cutter from the US. the reequipping of the two cutters already in its inventory is the reason cited for the decision. however, the Philippine Navy is also focusing on the possible acquisition of Maestrale class frigates from Italy.

DND puts on hold plan to get third warship from US
By Alexis Romero (The Philippine Star) Updated November 01, 2012 12:00 AM


MANILA, Philippines - Acquisition of a third warship from the US has been put on hold to allow the government to equip two former US Coast Guard vessels now known as BRP Gregorio del Pilar and BRP Ramon Alcaraz.

<snipped>

Defense Undersecretary Fernando Manalo told The STAR existing vessels must be equipped with the necessary weapon systems.

“The additional (cutter) was put on hold,” he said.

“We can use the money to enhance the capability of the two (warships). We would like to equip our ships.”

Manalo said the decision to hold the acquisition of a third warship is premised on the need to enhance the capabilities of the Del Pilar and the Alcaraz.

“With our limited budget, we are after the capability, we are after not only the presence but we must have deterrent capability,” he said.

The government remains open to acquiring warships from the US once financial resources are available, Manalo said.

Other countries are also offering defense equipment to the military.

Italy is ready to provide two missile-firing warships. Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin said the two Italian Navy vessels cost about P11.7 billion.

The Maestrale-class ships were commissioned in 1982. They are more capable than any of the vessels in the Navy’s inventory. The two warships have anti-aircraft, anti-ship and anti-submarine capabilities, as well as missile systems and modern radars.

Earlier, security officials said the government is planning to acquire as many as three Hamilton-class ships to enhance the Navy’s maritime defense capabilities.

Sources previously claimed that the Philippines’ request for a third warship was discussed in a meeting between Filipino and American officials last April.

On Sunday, the Philippine embassy in Washington announced that the Pentagon had awarded a $1.8-million contract for the purchase of modern weapons systems for Ramon Alcaraz.

 

[Griffin]

the Philippine Navy has decided to defer the acquisition of a third Hamilton class cutter from the US. the reequipping of the two cutters already in its inventory is the reason cited for the decision. however, the Philippine Navy is also focusing on the possible acquisition of Maestrale class frigates from Italy.

Hi Sir Israeli,

Thanks for the update sir. I recently read that from a Philippine Defense Forum site and a news article (the article you posted, btw.) I read that modernization vis a vis major acquisition plans, are still on the roll, despite sudden changes from the pronounced acquisition mode. I certainly hope that the Maestrale plans would not encounter opposition or sudden changes in priorities, (although the purchase was not made official) well, I meant the likes of what happened to our planned/news broadcasted third WHEC.
Is this a fair question to ask - if they are deferring the purchase via US EDA, the third WHEC costing around GRP $14M - $16M (for refurishment, commissioning and personnel training, based on local news), that budget (in its entirety) would then go to the two WHEC modernization/upgrade? - What can the GRP purchase with such budget, assuming that the budget is there and allocated for such purpose? Sensor suites? (Air search radar, etc.) ASW suites, CIWS? SAM (manpads)? SSM? or one or two of those mentioned? which would be given priority? Given that GRP does not usualy had a lot to go to. Thanks,

 

[israeli]

The negotiation between the Philippines and the Italy for the Philippine Navy's purchase of Maestrale class frigates of the Italian Navy may be completed soon, according to this news report from The Philippine Star. If things push through as planned, the frigates may enter Philippine Navy service in 2013.

DND deal for Italian warships nearing completion
By Alexis Romero (The Philippine Star) Updated November 05, 2012 12:00 AM

MANILA, Philippines - Negotiation for the acquisition of two warships from Italy may be completed within the year. In an interview, Defense Undersecretary Fernando Manalo told The STAR the Navy is expected to come up with a decision package, a document needed to make the ships ready for operation....

“G to G (government to government) negotiations are fast,” he said. “Even with little delay in implementation, we can still hit that before the end of 2012.”

Last August, the Department of National Defense bared plans to acquire two missile-firing warships from Italy to enhance the country’s maritime security capability. Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin said the two warships would be acquired from the Italian Navy at a cost of about P11.7 billion. The two warships have anti-aircraft, anti-ship and anti-submarine capabilities, and missile systems and modern radars, he added.

The Maestrale-class ships were commissioned in 1982 and are more capable than any of the vessels in the Navy’s inventory. The frigates may be delivered to the Philippines in November 2013 if the government manages to sign a contract by January. If the acquisition pushes through, the Italian warships could beef up the country’s defense posture in the West Philippine Sea...

 

[Ananda]

From PhilStar:
DND deal for Italian warships nearing completion - The Philippine Star » News » Headlines

Defense Secretary Voltaire Gazmin said the two warships would be acquired from the Italian Navy at a cost of about P11.7 billion.

The two warships have anti-aircraft, anti-ship and anti-submarine capabilities, and missile systems and modern radars, he added.

The Maestrale-class ships were commissioned in 1982 and are more capable than any of the vessels in the Navy’s inventory.

The frigates may be delivered to the Philippines in November 2013 if the government manages to sign a contract by January.

Well seems the Two Maestralle that being negotiated will come to Philippine with their full standard equipment. Hopefully Philippines can also get AB212 ASW that used to equipped the Maestralle.

 

[horge]

From PhilStar:

Well seems the Two Maestralle that being negotiated will come to Philippine with their full standard equipment. Hopefully Philippines can also get AB212 ASW that used to equipped the Maestralle.

Or perhaps not.
It depends how you treat the DND Secy's latest pronouncements.
(A snippet of raw transcript was posted at timawa.net just yesterday.)

He spoke of haggling down the spec offered by the Italians, as would
save money, and also because he believed some of the capabilities
embodied by said spec were 'not needed'.

I believe 'dread' is the word to describe how I felt, upon reading ^that.

 

[STURM]

Not necessarily, some of the stuff onboard the Maestralles, like certain comms, data link maybe and other electronics, might not be needed by the PN. Off course all this is pure speculation as we don't have all the facts but it is not unreasonable or surprising that some of the stuff fitted would be superflous to the PNs requirements.

Whilst is it is good news that the PN is getting extra badly needed hulls in the water, I think the long terms interests of the PN would have been better served if the government could somehow allocate funds for new light frigates or OPVS to be constructed rather than getting vessel's that were launched in the early 1980's - my concern here is long term operating costs and how maintainence intensive the Maestralles will turn out to be.

 

[Belesari]

I wonder if they could afford something from the US look at the Egyptian corvette design.

Not necessarily, some of the stuff onboard the Maestralles, like certain comms, data link maybe and other electronics, might not be needed by the PN. Off course all this is pure speculation as we don't have all the facts but it is not unreasonable or surprising that some of the stuff fitted would be superflous to the PNs requirements.

Whilst is it is good news that the PN is getting extra badly needed hulls in the water, I think the long terms interests of the PN would have been better served if the government could somehow allocate funds for new light frigates or OPVS to be constructed rather than getting vessel's that were launched in the early 1980's - my concern here is long term operating costs and how maintainence intensive the Maestralles will turn out to be.

 

[Acadiana Pirate]

I wonder if they could afford something from the US look at the Egyptian corvette design.

So you mean this?
Egyptian Navy Fast Missile Craft - Naval Technology

This is around 200million a pop which means the Philippines can probably just afford 1 ship based on their budget. I think at this time they want to buy as many hulls as they can and probably buy those types(brand new ones) down the road when they've gotten their feet wet with these older but still effective types such as the Maestrale. Remember now this is just their first time to get a hold of missile armed ships and its bells and whistle.

 

[exported_kiwi]

I wonder if they could afford something from the US look at the Egyptian corvette design.

As usual, I may earn the ire of the mods but this is a simple one liner........"why"?

 

[Andri F]

I wonder if they could afford something from the US look at the Egyptian corvette design.

Why? Elaborate please.

The Ambassador IV-Class patrol craft (if that's what you mean) has an endurance of 8 days according to Naval Technology. The Hamilton has more than that (14400 miles at 12 knots compared to 2000nm at 15 knots) . We need a naval presence in the South China Sea, not a missile craft especially since it could create tension.

 

[Belesari]

Why? Elaborate please.

The Ambassador IV-Class patrol craft (if that's what you mean) has an endurance of 8 days according to Naval Technology. The Hamilton has more than that (14400 miles at 12 knots compared to 2000nm at 15 knots) . We need a naval presence in the South China Sea, not a missile craft especially since it could create tension.

I didn't mean they need the Ambassador class i meant they could get something built in the states. Something with good endurance and capability. Something like the brits river class maybe.

And no offence but the tension is already there and while i can see why you are more worried about defusing the situation there will come a time when you need the weapons to defend your nation and if you dont have them it's to late.

A little side note I've been for the Hamiltons sense day one. However i think something newer purpose built might be a better idea bough over the next 5-10 years. Something like a modern Treasury class cutter.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCG_Treasury_class_cutter"]Treasury-class cutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[Sea Toby]

I didn't mean they need the Ambassador class i meant they could get something built in the states. Something with good endurance and capability. Something like the brits river class maybe.

And no offence but the tension is already there and while i can see why you are more worried about defusing the situation there will come a time when you need the weapons to defend your nation and if you dont have them it's to late.

A little side note I've been for the Hamiltons sense day one. However i think something newer purpose built might be a better idea bough over the next 5-10 years. Something like a modern Treasury class cutter.

Treasury-class cutter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Treasury class isn't new. I would suggest something similar to a NZ OPV, or Irish Roisin class OPV. They would be suitable for Philippine Sea EEZ patrols.

 

[colay]

How do OPVs rate vs. the Hamilton-class in heavy sea conditions? I'm assuming an ex-USCG design would have the edge and be very suitable to operations in the typhoon belt.

 

[Belesari]

A Treasury class isn't new. I would suggest something similar to a NZ OPV, or. They would be suitable for Philippine Sea EEZ patrols.

Yea i meant something like it but a modern design. A simple cutter design with enough legs and power to do whats needed. And yea Wellington and Otago would be fine i figure. Not sure how they handle though.

 

[Belesari]

How do OPVs rate vs. the Hamilton-class in heavy sea conditions? I'm assuming an ex-USCG design would have the edge and be very suitable to operations in the typhoon belt.

Oh yea the Hamiltons have been through some of the worst weather you can find. Not sure how the average OPV would do.