Royal New Zealand Air Force

[the road runner]

However, why do we need fighters. What missions would the realistically serve and in which context?

I wouldn't want to have a bunch of light fighter bombers at the expense of having a credible naval combat force

Seems like a bit of a catch 22

How do you train your Air Defence systems on your Naval fleet?
I would assume that if your Navy dose not train for some form of Air defence you have a navy that has no training in that environment.

Air defence with fighters is a major capability that all air forces should have.If you look at most conflicts in the last 40 years,you would realise how important it is to have fighters/attack aircraft defending or attacking a hostile.ECT no fly zones.

Id like to hear the answer to what NZ should do to.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Seems like a bit of a catch 22

How do you train your Air Defence systems on your Naval fleet?
I would assume that if your Navy dose not train for some form of Air defence you have a navy that has no training in that environment.

Air defence with fighters is a major capability that all air forces should have.If you look at most conflicts in the last 40 years,you would realise how important it is to have fighters/attack aircraft defending or attacking a hostile.ECT no fly zones.

Id like to hear the answer to what NZ should do to.

I don't know how much air defence training the NZ navy does but I do know that
NZ naval vessels have recently completed in RIMPAC. I don't know for certain but I assume that air defence was part of that. I know that they launched a Sea sparrow at a target drone. We would probably do training while on exercise with our allies. I imagine a lot of training would be done with simulations. Our frigates carry 8 sea sparrows, and a phalanx CIWS so in terms of air defence, they are pretty limited allready. I think we need to improove here and obviously air defence training would be part of this. However there is probably a cheaper way of achieving this than buying a bunch of fast jets.

Unless you mean australia attacking, NZ's geographic location places us a long way away from any potential land based airborne threats. I don't think any one is going to try and fly planes here and bomb us. If they did, they would likely cross/fly close to Australian airspace on the way. I'm not advocating that we bludge our aircover of Australia, but the situations does offer us an advantage.

In terms of deployed operations, if there were potentail air threats, NZ would deploy as part of a coalition involving friendly airpower.

talking about fighters is all well and good, but you have to take our context into account. What and how we operate has to fit this.

 

[Todjaeger]

I don't know how much air defence training the NZ navy does but I do know that
NZ naval vessels have recently completed in RIMPAC. I don't know for certain but I assume that air defence was part of that. I know that they launched a Sea sparrow at a target drone. We would probably do training while on exercise with our allies. I imagine a lot of training would be done with simulations. Our frigates carry 8 sea sparrows, and a phalanx CIWS so in terms of air defence, they are pretty limited allready. I think we need to improove here and obviously air defence training would be part of this. However there is probably a cheaper way of achieving this than buying a bunch of fast jets.

Unless you mean australia attacking, NZ's geographic location places us a long way away from any potential land based airborne threats. I don't think any one is going to try and fly planes here and bomb us. If they did, they would likely cross/fly close to Australian airspace on the way. I'm not advocating that we bludge our aircover of Australia, but the situations does offer us an advantage.

In terms of deployed operations, if there were potentail air threats, NZ would deploy as part of a coalition involving friendly airpower.

talking about fighters is all well and good, but you have to take our context into account. What and how we operate has to fit this.

While some have been arguing that the RNZAF should get back into the ACF, that is not what a few of us have been suggesting. Not so much that we do not think the RNZAF should have an ACF, rather we acknowledge that due to funding and political restrictions, it will not be happening any time soon, or without a major change in outlook.

What might, emphasis MIGHT be possible, would be for a short squadron (~6-8) of T/A-50 Golden Eagles which are the training & attack version be brought into service. The initial purchase price would likely be in the range of US$180 - 240 mil. or roughly one-third to one-half the price spent on Project Protector. Not include operations costs like fuel, or personnel pay, I suspect such a programme would have a total cost of ~US$600 - 800 mil, over a 30 year service life.

The would open additional avenues of training which are no longer available to NZ. For one, pilots would have a small number of fast jets which they can use to train on, and open up more opportunities for Kiwi pilots to serve in allied services are part of exchange programmes. Secondly, it would allow RNZN crews a chance to resume independent exercises in air defence. Thirdly, it could allow NZDF personnel to resume training in combined arms ops.

As a last advantage, T/A-50's could give the RNZAF an intercept/shootdown. capability.

As for the NZDF using events like RIMPAC as training opportunities, that is what they are there for. However, AFAIK the intent behind holding these multinational exercises was to reinforce and hone different nations' respective abilities to work together. Not as the time to practice a skill which needs to be maintained, but cannot be without outside help.

-Cheers

 

[kiwi in exile]

While some have been arguing that the RNZAF should get back into the ACF, that is not what a few of us have been suggesting. Not so much that we do not think the RNZAF should have an ACF, rather we acknowledge that due to funding and political restrictions, it will not be happening any time soon, or without a major change in outlook.

What might, emphasis MIGHT be possible, would be for a short squadron (~6-8) of T/A-50 Golden Eagles which are the training & attack version be brought into service. The initial purchase price would likely be in the range of US$180 - 240 mil. or roughly one-third to one-half the price spent on Project Protector. Not include operations costs like fuel, or personnel pay, I suspect such a programme would have a total cost of ~US$600 - 800 mil, over a 30 year service life.

The would open additional avenues of training which are no longer available to NZ. For one, pilots would have a small number of fast jets which they can use to train on, and open up more opportunities for Kiwi pilots to serve in allied services are part of exchange programmes. Secondly, it would allow RNZN crews a chance to resume independent exercises in air defence. Thirdly, it could allow NZDF personnel to resume training in combined arms ops.

As a last advantage, T/A-50's could give the RNZAF an intercept/shootdown. capability.

As for the NZDF using events like RIMPAC as training opportunities, that is what they are there for. However, AFAIK the intent behind holding these multinational exercises was to reinforce and hone different nations' respective abilities to work together. Not as the time to practice a skill which needs to be maintained, but cannot be without outside help.

-Cheers

Thanks for the clarifications.
I can see that there are a number of benefits for the scheme.
I can imagine that there would be a few problems getting the pollies to agree to commit <$600 on something for training, and buying "fighter jets" that aren't fighter jets. Especially to train kiwi pilots to serve in allied airforces - unless this was a means to an end IE gaining a NZ ACF. In which case I doubt the govt would be able to justify the spending unless it was prepared to go all the way. It seems to me that your plan is an attempt to get a foot in the door.

I'm not totally against having an ACF. I just think there are other things we should get right first. And if we were to have one, I would want it to be able to match our potential adversaries. I feel over the next few decades, something like a late model F16/F18 won't cut it. Fighters are primarily for achieving air superiority.

Cheers

 

[KiwiRob]

Why are we even bothering to talk about this yet again, it's pointless, it will never happen, plus MrC has forbidden discussion about it.

 

[Cadredave]

Why are we even bothering to talk about this yet again, it's pointless, it will never happen, plus MrC has forbidden discussion about it.

Yep totally agree with you on this point, MrC like the rest of us is tired of the same arguments going around in circles, IMHO it would be easier to get a USMC Sqn based in Ohakea from Hawaii than regenerate our own ACF.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Yep totally agree with you on this point, MrC like the rest of us is tired of the same arguments going around in circles, IMHO it would be easier to get a USMC Sqn based in Ohakea from Hawaii than regenerate our own ACF.

Ohakea could also take the MV-22's that Japan doesn't want based there. :roll2

And as other posters should know the NZDF is having difficulty maintaing funding streams for current capability let alone new capability.

 

[MrConservative]

Why are we even bothering to talk about this yet again, it's pointless, it will never happen, plus MrC has forbidden discussion about it.

I have not forbidden anything.

It is just that there are other priorities that need shoring up within Defence - even within the RNZAF which will see scarce money stretched.

 

[Todjaeger]

Yep totally agree with you on this point, MrC like the rest of us is tired of the same arguments going around in circles, IMHO it would be easier to get a USMC Sqn based in Ohakea from Hawaii than regenerate our own ACF.

I disagree that it will, "never happen," but rather that it is unlikely to ever happen, unless/until there is a major security issue which causes regular Kiwis to realize that they are not as safe as they had thought.

Definately agree though that there are other, more important parts of the NZDF which need support to be trained and sustained.

From the RNZAF POV, I am not certain which capabilities would be considered must crucial, and/or most threatened. The major capital programmes to replace the airlift component of the C-130H, as well as the MPA component of the P-3K, appear to overlap to a degree with each other. It is an open question whether or not there would be sufficient capital funding to meet replacing these capabilities at the same time. Then there is the naval helicopter, which might require replacement, which is somewhat dependent on if the RNZAF opts to purchase the SH-2G(I)'s to augment/replace the SH-2G(NZ)'s in service.

These are just within the RNZAF's bailiwick, looking at when the FFH's are set to start needing replacement, or the Project Protector fleet require either a midlife update or replacement... There does appear to be a significant cash crunch scheduled to hit the NZDF in about a decade.

-Cheers

 

[Cadredave]

I disagree that it will, "never happen," but rather that it is unlikely to ever happen, unless/until there is a major security issue which causes regular Kiwis to realize that they are not as safe as they had thought.

Just put it out there from the vague comments from the US Sec of Def ref basing US troops in NZ, ACF is too far gone this Govt & the next two after that wont spend extra to regenerate it regardless if we do suffer a major security scare oh well if we cant get fast movers from USMC what about AH1Z...as a grunt I can only but dream.

cheers CD

 

[KiwiRob]

I have not forbidden anything.

It is just that there are other priorities that need shoring up within Defence - even within the RNZAF which will see scarce money stretched.

Sorry MrC thought it was you but I'm sure some moderator wanted to stop pointless discussion on reinstating an ACF since there is no chance of it ever happening.

 

[Lucasnz]

This ACF argument is getting circular in some ways, but here is how I see it.

Does NZ need an Air Combat Force: Yes, even the pacifist Labour Government said the military threat to New Zealand was not nil. A short sqn of TA-50 would be a good way to start.

Having said that I agree with those who state that there are pressing needs right now for the NZDF. The P-3 and C-130 replacement are just two of them. We need additional Javelin for the army now we have a third combat battalion in the form of QAMR and that 1 RNZIR is "sharing" the capability. There are other issues around the ANZAC frigates and the need to upgrade the OPV and develop the concept of the Amphib Task Force, not to mention the acquisition of a Littoral Combat Ship and replacement AOR.

 

[MrConservative]

Sorry MrC thought it was you but I'm sure some moderator wanted to stop pointless discussion on reinstating an ACF since there is no chance of it ever happening.

I have not gone so far as forbidding it - it is just that everything on the subject has been debated countless times on DT over the years. I would not say there is no chance - it is just a remote chance. It is all to do with politics and nothing to do with actual NZ future defence requirements.

Put it this way. Do I think that NZ should have some form of air combat capability like all other first world liberal democratic nations? Yes and most serious defence commentators would agree. Do I think this is going to happen anytime soon within the context of NZ's current political landscape? No. Because we waste billions of dollars a year in moddycoddling far too many people by accepting their bad personal lifestyle choices. Until that changes and until they finally start drilling, mining and digging any talk of an ACF is just churn.

Cheers MrC

 

[ngatimozart]

Rumour has it that sound of four Ukrainian turbofans will be heard Tuesday of next week at Ohakea with two NH90s on board. Also a link to a couple of photos taken 9/9/2012 in France. Search results | Pictaero The external tanks look a good size but the affixation thingy looks chunky.

 

[Todjaeger]

Rumour has it that sound of four Ukrainian turbofans will be heard Tuesday of next week at Ohakea with two NH90s on board. Also a link to a couple of photos taken 9/9/2012 in France. Search results | Pictaero The external tanks look a good size but the affixation thingy looks chunky.

What looks like a bigger worry from my POV is that the large external tank looks like it reduces the width clearance entering and exiting the helicopter via the side doors. While the external tanks might not always be needed or utilized, it does seem like that could be a significant operational defect. Especially if they are lifting 20 troops to/from a hot LZ and/or doing a medevac.

It will be interesting to get the opinions of operators once they have a chance to try the birds out.

-Cheers

 

[MrConservative]

What looks like a bigger worry from my POV is that the large external tank looks like it reduces the width clearance entering and exiting the helicopter via the side doors. While the external tanks might not always be needed or utilized, it does seem like that could be a significant operational defect. Especially if they are lifting 20 troops to/from a hot LZ and/or doing a medevac.

-Cheers

It won't really be that much of an operational issue Tod. Those big strap on's are for long ferry flights. In particular through to OZ via Norfolk and Lord Howe. If a Medvac is needed for Campbell Island or Raoul Island (locations of staffed DOC stations without airstrips) then the rear doors would be used for egress/ingress.

 

[RegR]

Rumour has it that sound of four Ukrainian turbofans will be heard Tuesday of next week at Ohakea with two NH90s on board. Also a link to a couple of photos taken 9/9/2012 in France. Search results | Pictaero The external tanks look a good size but the affixation thingy looks chunky.

Alittle off Ngati, you should be hearing them tommorrow. Another 2 down, now the squadron is beginning to take shape, should be seeing them around the traps alot more from now on.

 

[ngatimozart]

Alittle off Ngati, you should be hearing them tommorrow. Another 2 down, now the squadron is beginning to take shape, should be seeing them around the traps alot more from now on.

A bit far for me to hear them but they landed at 11:26 this morning from Singapore. Flights From and To Airport The airport code for Ohakea os NZOH. After unloading the NH90s, the Ruslan (AN124) will partially refuel and then fly to Auckland International to top off. It can't fully refuel at Ohakea because of weight and runway length issues.

Edit: Mind you it is a presumption about the cargo.

 

[RegR]

A bit far for me to hear them but they landed at 11:26 this morning from Singapore. Flights From and To Airport The airport code for Ohakea os NZOH. After unloading the NH90s, the Ruslan (AN124) will partially refuel and then fly to Auckland International to top off. It can't fully refuel at Ohakea because of weight and runway length issues.

Edit: Mind you it is a presumption about the cargo.

It cannot fully refuel from Ohakea for other reasons, also remember it is a air force base, a relatively small air force base at that, not a typical international airport ie does not have in ground refuelling that the bigger airports have to take care of these types of amounts regularly. Just look at Ohakeas usual customers, a squadron of helicopters and some king airs, not exactly the busiest of air ports.

 

[MrConservative]

Any idea how long it is before they stand up a squadron of NH90s.

In about a years time all 8 will be delivered. As to get all 8 flying operationally as part of 3Sqd probably late 2013 is projected (at this stage).