Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

I think they have huge ambition, I read somewhere they eventually plan 6 carriers! But I suspect budgets/the economy will not support this and the needs of the other services. Vikramaditya seems to be burning cash and last time the Russians tried it on they got a firm no. There must be a small doubt is she ever enters service?

Their carrier program is extremely ambitious, in one fell swoop they've transitioned from a refurbished conventional STOBAR to an indiginously built conventional STOBAR to - rumoured to be potentially - indiginously built nuclear powered CATOBAR. Incredibly ambitious and if they can pull it off then more power to them.

There's been plenty of numbers tossed around for the amount of carriers they're going to get, but the most widely accepted figure at the minute as 3, which makes sense

True, the global slowdown is now hitting everyone including the big hitters like China and India but there's now too much expectation - especially from India, at least, 99% of Indians on Indian defence forums - on just how effective these carriers will be in direct competition with those the PRC will produce.

It'd be similar to the MOD cutting the QE class and then saying "Well, we need French/US help because what we're doing isn't good enough" I believe, there'd be a massive outcry against the defence ministers.

The ex-Gorshkov as the first step into the carrier game will come into service, that i'm sure of. At the very least sometimes when ex-Gorshkov screws up it might help their IAC program.

 

[swerve]

I've always been confused as to why India wants 3 different classes of aircraft carrier for their CBGs so surely logistically 3 of the same class makes sense.

But they've had ample oppertunity to buy the CVF design and i've got a feeling that if they really wanted it they would have already.

Not to mention that the goal isn't just to be able to operate 3 carriers, it's goal is also to design and build indiginously so they can showcase what exactly they can do. .

Last sentence almost answers the question in the first one.

The IN doesn't want three different designs. It's going to be lumbered with 'em due to incoherent procurement. Gorshkov was seen as a bargain & available quickly, so was snapped up without properly assessing the project risks, hence the fiasco. Building a carrier with foreign assistance was seen as the first stage towards building a truly indigenous carrier, & it gradually evolved, starting with STOVL concepts, then STOBAR when it became clear that there would be no more Harriers or Yak-141s, growing accordingly. There was a size limit imposed by available shipyards, & no long term policy that might include building or enlarging a dock, so something CVF sized was never considered - though I think something bigger than Vikramaditya could have been built. Then, it was decided that the carrier being built wasn't big enough for the long term, & a new design would be needed.

 

[RobWilliams]

Last sentence almost answers the question in the first one.

The IN doesn't want three different designs. It's going to be lumbered with 'em due to incoherent procurement. Gorshkov was seen as a bargain & available quickly, so was snapped up without properly assessing the project risks, hence the fiasco. Building a carrier with foreign assistance was seen as the first stage towards building a truly indigenous carrier, & it gradually evolved, starting with STOVL concepts, then STOBAR when it became clear that there would be no more Harriers or Yak-141s, growing accordingly. There was a size limit imposed by available shipyards, & no long term policy that might include building or enlarging a dock, so something CVF sized was never considered - though I think something bigger than Vikramaditya could have been built. Then, it was decided that the carrier being built wasn't big enough for the long term, & a new design would be needed.

Ahhhh I see, so it overall seems like a case of "Act in haste, repent at leasure"?

Have to say, does definitely seem like a very poor state of affairs. At least their escort procurement seems to be making better progress.

So would it be fair to say India tried to directly square up to China at a speed it had neither the infrastructure or capacity to do properly?

 

[KiwiRob]

Russian abortion about sums it up.....I suspect the Russians will pay a heavy price for this in the India defence market....or one would hope so.

The Russian are building three frigates for the Indians at the moment, so they don't appear to be all that pissed with them.

From what I understand the problem with the boilers was caused by the Indians not wanting to use the shielding the Russians wanted to use so they opted for a less optimal solution which caused this problem.

 

[RobWilliams]

From what I understand the problem with the boilers was caused by the Indians not wanting to use the shielding the Russians wanted to use so they opted for a less optimal solution which caused this problem.

I'm sure the problem was the Indians didn't want to use Asbestos so used "firebrick" instead, with the published consequences we've all seen.

 

[My2Cents]

The Russian are building three frigates for the Indians at the moment, so they don't appear to be all that pissed with them.

Looks like they signed the contract for those frigates in 2006. India wasn’t really pissed off at the Russians till 2010. Since they would have been making progress payments, India can hardly afford to walk away from them now.

From what I understand the problem with the boilers was caused by the Indians not wanting to use the shielding the Russians wanted to use so they opted for a less optimal solution which caused this problem.

The old he-said,-she-said. The Russians claim it is the Indians fault. The Indians claim it is the Russians fault.

There are several possibilities:

1. If the insulation was retrofitted to the boilers after delivery and installation, then India is mostly at fault.
2. Since the boilers were all replaced as part of the rebuild, if the non-asbestos was provided as part of the delivered boiler, then it would be the manufacturers fault for bad design. However,
3. Given the multiple extensions of the construction schedules after the boilers were delivered, if the yard did not sufficiently protect the firebrick from moisture, and then failed to provide an extended ‘heat soak’ to drive the moisture out before the trials, the bricks would literally explode when the moisture trapped in them was converted to steam as the boilers went to full power. Then it would be the fault of the construction yard.

There are more possibilities, but those are probably the major ones.

 

[swerve]

There are several possibilities:

1. If the insulation was retrofitted to the boilers after delivery and installation, then India is mostly at fault.

Not this one. The ship hasn't left Russian waters yet. All work done on her has been by the Russian shipyard.

 

[RobWilliams]

The old he-said,-she-said. The Russians claim it is the Indians fault. The Indians claim it is the Russians fault.

Yeah, all the Russian links are pointing at India but interestingly I was looking at a Times of India article about it and they quoted the "official - who prepared the Vikramaditya for sea trials" saying the same thing about the Indians not wanting to use Asbestos yadda-yadda but surprisingly they didn't try to counter that argument at all from Indian sources

INS Vikramaditya trial malfunctions to delay handover to India - Times Of India

But the following article says that the boilers were fitted (In a Russian shipyard - Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, Arkhangelsk Oblast, Russia according to Wiki) and appears to suggest because the Indians didn't want to use Asbestos then the designer was forced to use firebrick which didn't work.

He said the boilers' designer had to use firebrick, which proved not sufficiently heatproof, the official said.

The official referred to the customer as "Indians" so therefore would suggest that he was a Russian official, meaning it doesn't appear to be an Indian official trying to palm it off onto a Russian designer.

If it's true, it does seem like it's a fault by the designer and his calculations and not because the Indian government didn't want Asbestos, moreover it appears firebrick was the designers choice.

INS Vikramaditya trial malfunctions to delay handover to India - Times Of India

Of course, we may never know what really happened in detail.

 

[My2Cents]

Not this one. The ship hasn't left Russian waters yet. All work done on her has been by the Russian shipyard.

I was referring to the boilers being delivered to the shipyard and installed there, not after the ship had gone to India.

If the boilers had not been sent to the shipyard when the design change was made, then any problems with the insulation fit and attachment should have been addressed in the factory. Once the boilers have been shipped however the responsibility would be the shipyard’s. Finally, if the boilers had already been installed when the change was made then access to many parts of the boilers would be severely restricted.

 

[swerve]

But the shipyard is Russian, in Russia, with all the management & workers being Russian. They can't blame the Indians for shoddy work.

If a customer insists on using a material which is inadequate, a rational supplier gets them to sign a release, stating that any failures related to the use of this material are the customer's responsibility. A rational customer refuses to sign, a rational supplier says "then we won't do the work", & negotiations begin over what materials can be used that are acceptable to both. That does not seem to have happened in this case. The customer refused to accept material A, & the supplier chose to fit material B instead - and material B has failed.

There's scope for argument between the shipyard & the boiler manufacturer, but it's the shipyard's responsibility to supply a functioning ship, & ensure that all materials used are fit for purpose.

 

[StobieWan]

Exactly - and let's face it, asbestos has been illegal to use since *when* ? It's certainly been thirty years or more since the implications of using that material have been evident - being asked to use anything other than the "deadly nightmare disposal option" won't have been a surprise.

 

[AegisFC]

Asbestos is still very much legal in India so I doubt they'd be too worried about their old Russian ship having it.

 

[StobieWan]

Sorry, I realised almost as I was typing that the Indian traditional attitude to safety would probably mean just that !

Still, they did in fact insist on the material not being used, so unless the Indians specified the substitute firebricks, I guess this is back on the Russians.

 

[My2Cents]

Asbestos is still very much legal in India so I doubt they'd be too worried about their old Russian ship having it.

Asbestos may be legal in India, but the ramifications of its presence on board if they need to get any work done by American or European contractors, like an electronics update, could be profound (tenting, moon suits, regular testing and decontamination of all surfaces, etc.). On several occasions there have even been attempts to use the presence of asbestos insulation to deny access to ports.

Regulations often result in bizarre and irrational behavior when carried to legal extremes. India would want to avoid these problems, if practical.

 

[RobWilliams]

Good step forward for the IN, successful launch of a K-15 SLBM.

Report: India successfully tests nuclear-capable, medium-range missile - The Washington Post

NEW DELHI — An Indian news report says India has successfully tested a medium-range, nuclear-capable ballistic missile fired from an underwater platform in the Bay of Bengal.

The Press Trust of India news agency says the missile would soon be ready for deployment on platforms, including a nuclear submarine.

India’s Defense Ministry spokesman was not available for comment.

Pallava Bagla, a defense expert, said Sunday’s test off the east coast was 14th in the series with a range of 700 kilometers (435 miles). It would complete India’s nuclear triad — the capability to launch missiles from land, air and below the sea.

India Tests K-15 Sub-surface Launched Missile - YouTube

As a side note, the K-15 reportedly can carry a 1000kg warhead a distance of 700km, and AFAIK there are plans to try turn the K-4 (3,500km range) into a SLBM.

 

[RobWilliams]

India is apparently ready to start negotiations with Russia for the lease of a third - which would make it currently their second active - Akula class SSN

India looks towards leasing third nuclear attack submarine from Russia - ANN

The interesting piece being that it's kind of like the Gorshkov (although this is a piece of supposition on the part of the writer, but it's an interesting piece). The SSN suggested to be the one in question - Iribis - was never completed, the idea is that the boat could be built (in Russia) with VLS which could fire BrahMos. The current Akula they've got was leased as a completed boat, whereas this one will be being actually completed.

It is likely to be equipped with more lethal weaponry, including a vertically launched Brahmos missile system.

Vladimir Dorofeev, head of the Malachite Design Bureau, which is the main centre for nuclear attack submarines in Russia, has said that the negotiations between India and Russia for the 2012 lease of the Chakra will help in a smooth process for the acquisition of the new submarine.

India has expressed an interest in acquiring the submarine and both the Russian design bureau and the shipyard that will construct it are ready for negotiations, The Indian Express quoted him Thursday as saying in St. Petersburg, Russia.

The submarine is likely to be reconstructed round the hull of the Iribis, a Russian Akula class submarine, that was never completed as funds ran dry after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Dorofeev said that the new submarine could also benefit from the design efforts that Russia had put in its latest class of Yasen nuclear-powered attack submarines.

Unsurprising to hear about the BrahMos and I do get the article is full of "likely"s, but I can't wait for it to begin. Hopefully things would go smoother than their experiences with Vikramaditya

 

[ngatimozart]

The first Indian Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) the INS Vikrant is due to be launched on 12th August (they use the term floated) when it will be floated across to the Repair Dock for "remaining work" and most likely fitting out. Its not due for hand over to the Indian Navy until 2018. India’s First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier Near Completion

 

[RobWilliams]

It kinda puts me off when you read articles about their IAC and about how far along it is and rather than putting a picture showing the amount of completion they put a CGI of what it should look like.

They say floated because it won't be "launched" per se, it'll be in drydock and the dock will be flooded, the gates lowered and she'll be floated out.

 

[ngatimozart]

It kinda puts me off when you read articles about their IAC and about how far along it is and rather than putting a picture showing the amount of completion they put a CGI of what it should look like.

They say floated because it won't be "launched" per se, it'll be in drydock and the dock will be flooded, the gates lowered and she'll be floated out.

It's their bureaucracy and all its attendant problems. They have a really big impact upon Indian defence procurement and IMHO that is the huge stumbling block to India having a viable modern hitech indigenous defence industry. India has the money, talent, people etc., but no matter how many foreign military programs they have had ToT for, they haven't been able to take it to the next level.

 

[dragonfire]

It kinda puts me off when you read articles about their IAC and about how far along it is and rather than putting a picture showing the amount of completion they put a CGI of what it should look like.

They say floated because it won't be "launched" per se, it'll be in drydock and the dock will be flooded, the gates lowered and she'll be floated out.

Two images attached one of which is Satellite imagery of the INS Vikrant when it was being towed out for the further work, a lot of the basic hull work is complete, however it is still a long way off from being completed