Indian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Feanor]

The first landing on the Admiral Gorshkov just took place, using a MiG-29KUB prototype belonging to RSK MiG.

bmpd -

Well if the indigenous carrier project is being delayed, at least the Vikramaditya is moving forward.

EDIT: Trials aboard the Vikramaditya are continuing with MiG-29K and KUB involved, carrying mockup missiles, and external fuel tanks.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/311601.html

 

[Twinblade]

^^ If those external fuel tanks are not empty, that would be some serious bring back weight, but I think they might be.

 

[exported_kiwi]

At some point they cannot as the vessel must come in for regular maint and refit - thats usually every 3rd year depending on its duty cycle.

The reason why multiple vessels of type are advantageous is because it provides redundancy with minimal impact on the mission cycle.

min 3 vessels means 2 fleets can be actively maintained without disrupting fleet activities for the flag
min 4 vessels means 3 fleets can be actively maintained without disrupting fleet activities for the flag

I would have thought that if the IN wants proper redundancy, and to maintain all fleets at a relevant combat level, then they need 4 assets in play.

IN naval bases at west, east and the andomans could then be maintained without seeing a degradation when the capital flag is bought offline.

Hi GF. What you say is all very well and true but aren't we missing another side of having carrier battle fleets?
I don't see anybody mentioning the necessary escorts that go along with the CBGs. If we need to think of redundancy for the carriers for maint and so on, what about the escorts?

 

[RobWilliams]

I don't see anybody mentioning the necessary escorts that go along with the CBGs. If we need to think of redundancy for the carriers for maint and so on, what about the escorts?

Well the carriers are arguably the critical component of the IN for the future as their current destroyer and frigate components are being modernised as is their submarine service.

The numbers (and designations) of the future of the Indian Navy jump around - and confuse the arse off of me - so it's hard to pin down exact numbers but there is an extensive effort to update and expand their escort force.

Of course, the key element to any blue water fleet is their replenishment vessels, the progress of which I have no idea.

 

[swerve]

The IN has just (delivered last year) bought two new fleet tankers from Fincantieri, joining two other relatively new (1990s-2000) fleet tankers. It could do with some solid stores ships.

 

[RobWilliams]

The IN has just (delivered last year) bought two new fleet tankers from Fincantieri, joining two other relatively new (1990s-2000) fleet tankers. It could do with some solid stores ships.

Thanks for the info, good to see they're updating their replenishment vessels as many do see them as a vital component to any true blue water navy.

I was flicking through Warships IFR editions trying to find an article about the IN replen. ships (they did a 5 part series) but sadly was ignored in the "Asian" selection and only focused on China, South Korea and Japan.

Can't find anything on them planning on getting any dedicated solid stores ships, but i'd imagine those 2 new tankers must have some sort of combined stores thing going on like the RFA Fort class?

 

[swerve]

AFAIK the two new Deepak class tankers (not to be confused with the previous Deepak class, now retired) are pretty much pure tankers* , but looking more closely, I see that one of the older ships, INS Aditya, is classed as a replenishment & repair ship, with tanks for fuel & fresh water & solid cargo holds.

A couple more like that could be useful.

They're all good-sized ships. The smallest, Aditya, is 24000 tons full load.

*One fan site lists a small dry cargo capacity of 510 tons, which it calls a "weapons' capacity for resupplying warships, so perhaps they also have some ammunition resupply abilities.

 

[RobWilliams]

AFAIK the two new Deepak class tankers (not to be confused with the previous Deepak class, now retired) are pretty much pure tankers* , but looking more closely, I see that one of the older ships, INS Aditya, is classed as a replenishment & repair ship, with tanks for fuel & fresh water & solid cargo holds.

A couple more like that could be useful.

They're all good-sized ships. The smallest, Aditya, is 24000 tons full load.

*One fan site lists a small dry cargo capacity of 510 tons, which it calls a "weapons' capacity for resupplying warships, so perhaps they also have some ammunition resupply abilities.

According to this site, the new Deepak class fleet tankers can provide other roles in a more limited capacity but does seem to substantiate (with the second link also) the claims from the fan site you mentioned.

Indian Navy set to induct new fleet tanker - Brahmand.com

Though INS Shakti is essentially a tanker, it is a thoughtfully-designed and versatile platform capable of a large number of roles. In addition to its traditional role of supplying fuel to ships at sea, the ship is also capable of transporting and supplying ammunitions, materials and provisions.

It's strange, there isn't even any rough ballpark figures at all on the Deepak class on Wiki, although if you go onto the INS Shakti article it does provide some numbers in regards to solid stores, the following is directly from the linked source on Wikipedia

It also has large storage space to carry up to 500 tonnes of solid cargo like victuals and ammunition. It has state-of-the-art cargo handling facilities including a 30 tonne capacity deck crane that facilitate simultaneous fuelling of multiple ships and transfer of heavy solid cargo at sea.

INS Shakti inducted into the Indian navy - Times Of India

I'm not up on what sort of stores are required to sustain a warship on active duty but that - to me - doesn't sound too bad. I'd like to compare the capacity to RFA Fort Victoria but all the capacity for them is in m^3, so that's that

 

[Humming Drone]

Looks like exGorshkov had some serious trouble with her boilers during the sea trials. Apparently the delivery would be delayed until at least late 2013, and, who knows, maybe until 2014...

This also should raise questions about Russia's ability to build capital ships for her own Navy if they are to be non-nukes.

 

[swerve]

According to this site, the new Deepak class fleet tankers can provide other roles in a more limited capacity but does seem to substantiate (with the second link also) the claims from the fan site you mentioned.

Indian Navy set to induct new fleet tanker - Brahmand.com



It's strange, there isn't even any rough ballpark figures at all on the Deepak class on Wiki, although if you go onto the INS Shakti article it does provide some numbers in regards to solid stores, the following is directly from the linked source on Wikipedia



INS Shakti inducted into the Indian navy - Times Of India

I'm not up on what sort of stores are required to sustain a warship on active duty but that - to me - doesn't sound too bad. I'd like to compare the capacity to RFA Fort Victoria but all the capacity for them is in m^3, so that's that

Try the builders web site. Not much more than Wiki, but does give a total cargo figure. I suppose there's no point giving a breakdown since that would be according to customer requirements.

Fort Victoria is slightly bigger, at just over 30000 tons full load, & the new MARS ships are a little bigger again.

 

[RobWilliams]

Try the builders web site. Not much more than Wiki, but does give a total cargo figure. I suppose there's no point giving a breakdown since that would be according to customer requirements.

Fort Victoria is slightly bigger, at just over 30000 tons full load, & the new MARS ships are a little bigger again.

Thanks for the link!

Seems like a pretty decent ship for the IN, not bad at all. So I assume - if the plan is 3 carrier battle groups - would be 2 tasked for 2 groups with 1 in maintenance and 1 training then, would that be a reasonable assumption?

 

[uuname]

Looks like exGorshkov had some serious trouble with her boilers during the sea trials. Apparently the delivery would be delayed until at least late 2013, and, who knows, maybe until 2014...

I found some links with more details:
Livefist: Jinxed Gorshkov Fails Trials, Delayed A Year More

Technical malfunction: The cause of hitch in Admiral Gorshkov delivery | Mail Online

'Gorshkov curse' continues aircraft carrier fails trials

'Seven out of eight steam boilers of the propulsion machinery were out of order,' an anonymous official of the Russian arms export agency Rosoboronexport told leading daily Kommersant on Monday.

The exact details vary from source to source, with anywhere from three to seven boilers damaged. The cause of the problem, however, remains fairly consistant.

Blaming the Indian side for the malfunction, the official said the reason for the boilers' failure was that India had refused to use asbestos to protect them from heat, fearing that the material was dangerous for the crew.

The boilers' designer had to use firebrick, which did not prove to be sufficiently heatproof, he added.

Making an untested design change to an old piece of equipment really is asking for trouble. They must be under a lot of pressure to get it done if they're just tossing stuff in and hoping it works.

It also raises questions about the expected service life of the thing one it's handed over, and what arrangements have been made for maintenance.

 

[RobWilliams]

The exact details vary from source to source, with anywhere from three to seven boilers damaged. The cause of the problem, however, remains fairly consistant.


Making an untested design change to an old piece of equipment really is asking for trouble. They must be under a lot of pressure to get it done if they're just tossing stuff in and hoping it works.

It also raises questions about the expected service life of the thing one it's handed over, and what arrangements have been made for maintenance.

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120918/176030847.html

Very poor thinking on the part of the Indian Navy, if the following article is correct it's not a promising showcase of IN defence procurement

The replacement boilers installed as part of the vessel's $2.3 billion refit were guaranteed for just ten months, which expired before the ship took to sea, he said.

So were they refitted with firebrick (?) in the original refit or is it something that's been done in the last few months?

Not really sure which is worse really, a very quick change with a "I reckon that'll probably work" attitude, or trying to run the boilers full when they've got a hideously (at least, to me anyway) short guarantee considering what they are going to be used for.

In the same link there's a decent read about the possible "worst case" scenario

Specialists from the Baltisky Shipyard and boiler design bureau are already at Sevmash shipyard, where the carrier will arrive in the next few weeks. Engineers are focusing on the boilers' heat insulation as the core of the problem. Repairs could take from four months to a year depending on the damage to the insulation, he said.

The worst case would be damage to the pipes carrying steam from the boilers, Shulyakovsky said. The pipes are made from a special steel which is no longer made in Russia. The steel used in Vikramaditya's pipes was made in Ukraine.

Although I suppose it could have some long term benefits, can cross off "firebrick" on the to-buy list for IAC1 and IAC2

 

[1805]

Yard Boss Blames Boilers for India Carrier Trials Snags | Defense | RIA Novosti

Very poor thinking on the part of the Indian Navy, if the following article is correct it's not a promising showcase of IN defence procurement



So were they refitted with firebrick (?) in the original refit or is it something that's been done in the last few months?

Not really sure which is worse really, a very quick change with a "I reckon that'll probably work" attitude, or trying to run the boilers full when they've got a hideously (at least, to me anyway) short guarantee considering what they are going to be used for.

In the same link there's a decent read about the possible "worst case" scenario



Although I suppose it could have some long term benefits, can cross off "firebrick" on the to-buy list for IAC1 and IAC2

The UK could have built them a brand new CVF for less. This ship is 35+ years old already. I still think there is an opportunity to the UK to get involved with the 2nd/3rd local constructed new builds.

 

[RobWilliams]

The UK could have built them a brand new CVF for less. This ship is 35+ years old already. I still think there is an opportunity to the UK to get involved with the 2nd/3rd local constructed new builds.

I suspect the Indian Navy will continue with it in an attempt to finish it and try to save some face + credibility. The fact they're still running INS Viraat (Ex-Hermes) until 2017ish - i forget the exact date - clocking up close to 60 years in service shows they don't mind running ships right to the edge of their lives.

The IN didn't want a CVF when there was a real possibility to be able to actually buy one so right when that seems increasingly unlikely i'm highly sceptical, as much as i'd like them too.

 

[1805]

I suspect the Indian Navy will continue with it in an attempt to finish it and try to save some face + credibility. The fact they're still running INS Viraat (Ex-Hermes) until 2017ish - i forget the exact date - clocking up close to 60 years in service shows they don't mind running ships right to the edge of their lives.

The IN didn't want a CVF when there was a real possibility to be able to actually buy one so right when that seems increasingly unlikely i'm highly sceptical, as much as i'd like them too.

There is no reason why they could not buy the design, particularly as they are running into delays with the local design, the next two are planned to be bigger near CVF size. If the IN brought the basic design and modified from that, it would help to de-risk the whole project. Also they could have access to a lot of experience gained from the QE/POW. It might even help with winning the design for the Brazilian Navy's replacement.

Either way the IN could do with looking at ways to reduce cost and de-risk the whole carrier programme. The Indian economy looks like it is facing a temporary slowdown...they may face the same budget challenges the UK.

 

[StobieWan]

I believe they've got some sort of industrial partnership with Fincantieri and I suspect with hindsight, skipping the Russian carrier and moving straight to a home built item with a lot of support would have been much cheaper and more cost effective.


Cheaper to run as well if they're using steam....

A modern design, based on the Cavour but rigged for STOBAR or CATOBAR at around 50kt perhaps ?

Certainly, I'm of the opinion that the best thing to do with the Russian abortion is rent it out for an instrumented sinkex using whatever flavour of Russian ASM suits.

 

[1805]

I believe they've got some sort of industrial partnership with Fincantieri and I suspect with hindsight, skipping the Russian carrier and moving straight to a home built item with a lot of support would have been much cheaper and more cost effective.


Cheaper to run as well if they're using steam....

A modern design, based on the Cavour but rigged for STOBAR or CATOBAR at around 50kt perhaps ?

Certainly, I'm of the opinion that the best thing to do with the Russian abortion is rent it out for an instrumented sinkex using whatever flavour of Russian ASM suits.

Russian abortion about sums it up.....I suspect the Russians will pay a heavy price for this in the India defence market....or one would hope so.

 

[RobWilliams]

There is no reason why they could not buy the design, particularly as they are running into delays with the local design, the next two are planned to be bigger near CVF size. If the IN brought the basic design and modified from that, it would help to de-risk the whole project. Also they could have access to a lot of experience gained from the QE/POW. It might even help with winning the design for the Brazilian Navy's replacement.

Either way the IN could do with looking at ways to reduce cost and de-risk the whole carrier programme. The Indian economy looks like it is facing a temporary slowdown...they may face the same budget challenges the UK.

I've always been confused as to why India wants 3 different classes of aircraft carrier for their CBGs so surely logistically 3 of the same class makes sense.

But they've had ample oppertunity to buy the CVF design and i've got a feeling that if they really wanted it they would have already.

Not to mention that the goal isn't just to be able to operate 3 carriers, it's goal is also to design and build indiginously so they can showcase what exactly they can do.

To go from that to building with UK help with assistance from the ACA would really be a turnaround IMO.

As for Brazil, that's something i'm really very interested to see develop but i've heard nothing for a few months since April, where they asked European shipyards for information on a "potential build and design strategy".

 

[1805]

I've always been confused as to why India wants 3 different classes of aircraft carrier for their CBGs so surely logistically 3 of the same class makes sense.

But they've had ample oppertunity to buy the CVF design and i've got a feeling that if they really wanted it they would have already.

Not to mention that the goal isn't just to be able to operate 3 carriers, it's goal is also to design and build indiginously so they can showcase what exactly they can do.

To go from that to building with UK help with assistance from the ACA would really be a turnaround IMO.

I think they have huge ambition, I read somewhere they eventually plan 6 carriers! But I suspect budgets/the economy will not support this and the needs of the other services. Vikramaditya seems to be burning cash and last time the Russians tried it on they got a firm no. There must be a small doubt is she ever enters service?