The Next Infantry Assault rifle for the United States

[Abraham Gubler]

And only now being solved by the yanks with their containerised feed linked 750 round backpack units. Hmmm, only 40 years to fix.... If others haven't seen one (I know you have Abe!) think of the feed system in Terminator linked to the 7.62mm minigun - except its got the same sort of flexible feed chute clipped to the Minimi Feed cover. Nice way to keep your round clean, not twisted, devoid of leaf litter/twigs etc with a full 750 rounds available.... A gunners wet dream.

Or you just use magazines and leave the belts for the SFMGs. How often does a section LMG really need to have a new belt spliced onto the end of the old one? Bren gun seemed to manage in WWII with 30 round magazines. The Ultimax has a 100 round drum that seems manageable. Just hand these out in place of belts.

There is also a third way: the HK 73. This was a special clockwork powered magazine (like a drum) that could be loaded with 150 rounds of 5.56mm and feed them into the LMG. But the magazine could also be reloaded while attached to the LMG and simultaneously with being fired. It had a hatch on the left side where stripper clips (10 rounds per) or individual rounds could be inserted to replenish the magazine.

 

[My2Cents]

Grenades. Rifle grenades performed better than the M79 grenade-launcher or M72 LAW (although it looks like a training deficiency caused problems early on). [US] M26 hand grenades projected from the rifle [with an issue add-on tailboom and fin assembly] are extremely accurate and successful against bunker systems. Projected grenades are far superior to the M79 and M72 in secondary jungle, and must be carried in quantity.

I always wondered why no one never developed an under-barrel launcher for rifle grenades, especially in light of reports like this one. It does not look to be mechanically difficult and would leave the basic weapon available to fire, same as the 40mm grenade launchers.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I always wondered why no one never developed an under-barrel launcher for rifle grenades, especially in light of reports like this one. It does not look to be mechanically difficult and would leave the basic weapon available to fire, same as the 40mm grenade launchers.

They actually did.

I looked it up was the Rifleman's Assault Weapon (RAW):

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifleman%27s_Assault_Weapon[/ame]

Turns out it was hardly a rifle grenade. It used the gas tapped from the barrel to eject the weapon but it was powered by a rocket motor. Performed very well but was just to freaky wierd for anyone to adopt. The big 1 kg warhead is about four times the bang of a 40mm grenade.

 

[Raven22]

Or you just use magazines and leave the belts for the SFMGs. How often does a section LMG really need to have a new belt spliced onto the end of the old one? Bren gun seemed to manage in WWII with 30 round magazines. The Ultimax has a 100 round drum that seems manageable. Just hand these out in place of belts.

Just have both. The magazine for the Minimi works fine. Handy belted ammunition that stays nice and neat and clean. Just don't use the 200 round soft mag unless you like trapped belts.

 

[an94stalker]

The french FAMAS could also fire rifle grenades, being specifically designed to do that. Rifle grenades are no longer used probably because they can't penetrate tank armour anymore and are overall heavier than 40mm grenades. And 5.56 weapons need to be specifically designed to fire them.

And regarding the main topic, the russian AK-12 is interesting. It's main feature is that it can easily have some parts swapped out and be able to fire different calibres upto 7.62x51mm. This allows a comparatively poor army like russia to change calibres on the fly, depending on terrain and mission. The cost savings in training and weapon purchases would be huge. Next step in modular firearms.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

And 5.56 weapons need to be specifically designed to fire them.

LOL. Where did you hear this? Total fiction. All a rifle needs is a NATO standard 22mm flash hider to fire a rifle grenade. It helps to have an adjustable gas port but even without one (like an M16) all you are going to suffer is a minor reduction in range.

The french FAMAS could also fire rifle grenades, being specifically designed to do that.

By the addition of a lightweight sheet metal alidade sight? Hardly a significant design change.

The Rifle grenades are no longer used probably because they can't penetrate tank armour anymore and are overall heavier than 40mm grenades.

An ENERGA will still penetrate the side armour of most tanks. And while a rifle grenade is twice as heavy as a 40mm grenade it is so because it carries twice the bang. Wight wise rifle grenades are far more efficient than 40mm grenades because they don’t need launchers and propellant cases. The reason they are less frequently seen is more trends than anything. Plus of course the clear advantage an underbarrel 40mm grenade launcher has in being ready to fire the rifle. Which is important for close quarters battles.

And regarding the main topic, the russian AK-12 is interesting.

The main topic being a new US infantry weapon?

It's main feature is that it can easily have some parts swapped out and be able to fire different calibres upto 7.62x51mm. This allows a comparatively poor army like russia to change calibres on the fly, depending on terrain and mission. The cost savings in training and weapon purchases would be huge. Incredibly flexible fire power, the Russians have done it again.

No one changes calibres on the fly. Its all about system costs and being able to sell more rifles to more divergent customers. As to the Russian’s achieving something perhaps but it has been done before… FNH’s SCAR, IMI’s Galil…

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Just have both. The magazine for the Minimi works fine. Handy belted ammunition that stays nice and neat and clean. Just don't use the 200 round soft mag unless you like trapped belts.

Uggh always something right in front. Though in defence us ‘old timers’ never had access to magazines for the Minimi though apparently something that changed in recent years.

As to the failings of the softmag and loose belts perhaps we need new 200 round link packaging. A box that can be used for storage and if need be attached to the Minimi as a belt carrier. Like the original Minimi hard plastic belt carrier.

From back in the day it was explained that the Australian Army was going to use a new fabric belt carrier because it could be opened to make it easier to attach another belt to the free end of the loaded belt. There is no reason why such an opening couldn’t be designed into a hard plastic belt carrier.

 

[My2Cents]

Turns out it was hardly a rifle grenade. It used the gas tapped from the barrel to eject the weapon but it was powered by a rocket motor. Performed very well but was just to freaky wierd for anyone to adopt. The big 1 kg warhead is about four times the bang of a 40mm grenade.

Actually it used gas tapped from the barrel to activate the trigger to fire the rocket motor. Gas from the motor is originally diverted through the turbine to spin the projectile up to speed for gyroscopic stabilization. Then when it reaches a predetermined speed the projectile is released.

And a 1kg warhead is equal to about 20x 40mm grenades, not 4. Or about 12 rifle grenades. One of the nickname was supposed to be the ‘flying satchel charge’ (possible manufacturer’s hype).

Seems to have been fairly accurate, the trajectory was absolutely flat until motor burnout at 300yds. But can you imagine maneuvering a rifle with a 4.7kg weight (more than ½ the weight of the rifle) on the end of the muzzle?

 

[My2Cents]

Grenades. Rifle grenades performed better than the M79 grenade-launcher or M72 LAW (although it looks like a training deficiency caused problems early on). [US] M26 hand grenades projected from the rifle [with an issue add-on tailboom and fin assembly] are extremely accurate and successful against bunker systems. Projected grenades are far superior to the M79 and M72 in secondary jungle, and must be carried in quantity.

It occurs to me that the reason the M26 was so much more effective in Vietnam was due to the fact that it is time fused (4-5 seconds)and would have just punched through intervening foliage. The M79 and M72 rounds were impact fused and would detonate if they hit foliage beyond the minimum safe distance.

Wonder if the XM25 can be used the same way?

 

[Abraham Gubler]

It occurs to me that the reason the M26 was so much more effective in Vietnam was due to the fact that it is time fused (4-5 seconds)and would have just punched through intervening foliage. The M79 and M72 rounds were impact fused and would detonate if they hit foliage beyond the minimum safe distance.

Well there were two types of rifle grenade adaptors for hand grenades… but I don’t think the fuses of the 40mm grenade and 66mm rocket are sensitive enough to detonate via hitting a leaf or twig. Branch sure but that’s not a bad thing as you then have an airburst. Pre digital XM25.

Of the two types of rifle grenade adaptors I don’t know which was used by the Australian Army in VietNam. The older style was clipped onto the hand grenade and retained the time delay fuse. You needed to pull the pin before firing so was a two man operation unless you were comfortable with getting you finger to the trigger after pulling the pin…

The other sort required the delay fuse to be screwed out and the adaptor with fin and a new fuse was screwed into the now vacant fuse hole. This fuse was contact initiated so could be safely held on the end of the rifle ready to fire.

Wonder if the XM25 can be used the same way?

XM25 has all sorts of stuff for settings for foliage penetration.

 

[Raven22]

As to the failings of the softmag and loose belts perhaps we need new 200 round link packaging. A box that can be used for storage and if need be attached to the Minimi as a belt carrier. Like the original Minimi hard plastic belt carrier.

Operational 5.56 link ammo does get delivered in 200 round hard plastic magazines that can be clipped straight onto the Minimi. While they are pretty good, they're rarely used in practice as quite obviously they take up a lot more space than loose link or link in soft fabric magazines. They're handy for defensive positions or vehicle stowage where portability doesn't matter though.

Personally I would only ever use a single 100 round soft magazine which would stay permanently on the weapon while I carried spare ammo in loose 50 or 100 round belts. You can get >400 rounds of link into a standard old-school Minimi pouch if you stack the rounds vertically. During a contact I would just ignore the magazine and link new belts direct to the old one and simply tuck whatever was left back into the magazine at the end of the contact.

The Maximi comes with 50 and 100 round soft mags as well. You probably couldn't make one for the Mag58 though as it ejects rounds through the bottom of the receiver.

 

[Cadredave]

The French FAMAS could also fire rifle grenades, being specifically designed to do that. Rifle grenades are no longer used probably because they can't penetrate tank armour anymore and are overall heavier than 40mm grenades.

Got nothing to do with weight, 40mm grenades provide more options for the Infantry with the ability to change between lethal or less than lethal munitions depending on the role and tasking.

Lethal ammo; HE, HEDP, Solid shot, & Buck,
Less than Lethal;
Smoke, illum, IR illum, CS and a few others that escape me.

And regarding the main topic, the Russian AK-12 is interesting. Its main feature is that it can easily have some parts swapped out and be able to fire different calibres up to 7.62x51mm.

Interesting but not new there are plenty of Western arms companies that have produced assault rifles that are able to change calibres, barrel lengths etc. the Bushmaster ACR for example, these rifles are good for small specialist Units but are a Logistics nightmare for the Conventional Army to support in the Field.

This allows a comparatively poor army like Russia to change calibres on the fly, depending on terrain and mission. The cost savings in training and weapon purchases would be huge. Next step in modular firearms.

Looks great on MW3 but let me take you back to the point I made above who is going to carry the multiple spare parts and interchangeable bolts and other ancillaries plus the many different calibres to fire from this next step in modular firearms for let’s say just one Infantry battalion of 700 men where are the cost savings now? if you cant support the system then it becomes a liability.

 

[old faithful]

Well there were two types of rifle grenade adaptors for hand grenades… but I don’t think the fuses of the 40mm grenade and 66mm rocket are sensitive enough to detonate via hitting a leaf or twig. Branch sure but that’s not a bad thing as you then have an airburst. Pre digital XM25.

Of the two types of rifle grenade adaptors I don’t know which was used by the Australian Army in VietNam. The older style was clipped onto the hand grenade and retained the time delay fuse. You needed to pull the pin before firing so was a two man operation unless you were comfortable with getting you finger to the trigger after pulling the pin…

The other sort required the delay fuse to be screwed out and the adaptor with fin and a new fuse was screwed into the now vacant fuse hole. This fuse was contact initiated so could be safely held on the end of the rifle ready to fire.



XM25 has all sorts of stuff for settings for foliage penetration.

Kinda funny story about that, when I first got promoted to lance jack, we did a live fire ex, I was in fire support with a n M203, Gunner had a minimi, and no 2 a styer.
Gunner was car ring out an I A, so let amag go of 5.56, and followed up with a 40mm, the grenade bounced of a blue gum branch and landed about 2 m from us, I froze, safty officer squeeled and dived, Gunn and number 2 fixed he problem with the gun, and continued firing, it wasnt until later, that They found out what happend,and because they didn't experience the slow motion sight of a 40mm landing right in front f them, it didn't sink in. thank god for arming distances!

 

[StobieWan]

Looks great on MW3 but let me take you back to the point I made above who is going to carry the multiple spare parts and interchangeable bolts and other ancillaries plus the many different calibres to fire from this next step in modular firearms for let’s say just one Infantry battalion of 700 men where are the cost savings now? if you cant support the system then it becomes a liability.

That's not how they're usually deployed however, is it ? I'm just thinking about the SOCOM experience with the SCAR where mainly the weapon stays "as is" in terms of calibre in a unit or formation, but they can draw on the capability to swap calibres when deployed as embedded observers etc on the ground if the locals use a different (and usually former Warsaw Pact) round ?

Or you can chuck a bunch of 5.56 weapons in various barrel lengths, dial in a 7.62 weapon for a designated marksmen weapon, with no additional training required ?

I'd definitely agree the idea of anyone mooching around with a bag full of spare parts just in case they need to trade calibres isn't a goer

 

[Cadredave]

That's not how they're usually deployed however, is it ? I'm just thinking about the SOCOM experience with the SCAR where mainly the weapon stays "as is" in terms of calibre in a unit or formation, but they can draw on the capability to swap calibres when deployed as embedded observers etc on the ground if the locals use a different (and usually former Warsaw Pact) round?

Hi Stobie, tired forgive me if this makes no sense,

I didn’t base my comment on SOCOM but a normal Infantry Battalion, you are correct about SF they would only deploy a very limited number of weapon systems to conduct there tasking’s. If im correct then an94 has suggested that everyone be issued a changeable weapons system then yes someone in each Rifle Company would hold onto the parts necessary to alter those weapon when needed eg the CQMS for his company.

Our new Steyr Aug when it comes on line could potentially contain the following for each rifleman not counting the section DM:

1 x Steyr A3, 1 x NZ Acog, 2 x barrels 20 inch, 16inch, & 1 x suppressor,

Complete Interchangable weapons are fine for SF but normal Riflemen would be a major pain in the back side I can see the lost & damaged reports on the CQ desk with the OC & I conducting orderly rooms for lost parts.

 

[Raven22]

Kinda funny story about that, when I first got promoted to lance jack, we did a live fire ex, I was in fire support with a n M203, Gunner had a minimi, and no 2 a styer.
Gunner was car ring out an I A, so let amag go of 5.56, and followed up with a 40mm, the grenade bounced of a blue gum branch and landed about 2 m from us, I froze, safty officer squeeled and dived, Gunn and number 2 fixed he problem with the gun, and continued firing, it wasnt until later, that They found out what happend,and because they didn't experience the slow motion sight of a 40mm landing right in front f them, it didn't sink in. thank god for arming distances!

Not as bad as the Kiwi that shot a 40mm grenade into the floor of the helo in Timor. Who knew the sights were above the axis of the bore, and you have to take that into account when aiming out of a helo? Its surprising that everyone else in the helo didn't through him out of the helicopter after that effort.

 

[an94stalker]

As the next future standard rifle of russia, replacing the ak-74 what do people think of the ak-12? Isn't it's standard rifle configuration a strong rejection of the bullpup format? Does calibre modularity replace any advantages the bullpup format may offer?, that's what the russians seem to be saying with their choice. That's what I mean by the ak-12 being interesting, it may very well usher in the end of the bullpup, after all if the russians thought a calibre modular bullpup wasn't worth it, who can argue with them? (an important difference though is the standard russian rifle has a 16 inch barrel in contrast to the 5.56mm's 20 inch)

And in regards to practical applications of the calibre modularity of a rifle, apart from sf, the military could change the mix of calibres in a infantry group depending on terrain and mission type, not instant hot swappability but over a few weeks/months. In afghanistan for example russian soldiers could have included more of the 7.62x51mm version of their rifle for more distance. For door kicking raids and in urban terrain such as in iraq they could have choosen the harder hitting 7.62x39mm calibre (maybe/eventually with a shorter barrel too?). Western forces already employ completely different weapon systems such as 7.62x51mm battle and dmr rifles. Australian troops in afghanistan were recently given HK417's as battle rifles.

Regarding the EF88 I believe it's no longer quick barrel change capable.

 

[My2Cents]

it may very well usher in the end of the bullpup, after all if the russians thought a calibre modular bullpup wasn't worth it, who can argue with them? (an important difference though is the standard russian rifle has a 16 inch barrel in contrast to the 5.56mm's 20 inch)

Has it been officially adopted, in production, and being issued to the troops? Just asking, they seem to have so many official designs.

And one nation’s choice hardly stops the others from making different choices. The American choice of the M-16 did not stop other nations from producing a variety of bullpup designs like the Steyr AUG, L85, FAMAS, and Tavor. It all depends on the perceived needs.

 

[Cadredave]

Not as bad as the Kiwi that shot a 40mm grenade into the floor of the helo in Timor.

Yep and he belonged to our finest unloaded his M4 forgot the 203, jumped in round went right thru the floor not bad for a troop leader just as well he was not the Det Comd.

 

[Bonza]

As the next future standard rifle of russia, replacing the ak-74 what do people think of the ak-12? Isn't it's standard rifle configuration a strong rejection of the bullpup format? Does calibre modularity replace any advantages the bullpup format may offer?, that's what the russians seem to be saying with their choice. That's what I mean by the ak-12 being interesting, it may very well usher in the end of the bullpup, after all if the russians thought a calibre modular bullpup wasn't worth it, who can argue with them? (an important difference though is the standard russian rifle has a 16 inch barrel in contrast to the 5.56mm's 20 inch)

Why would it be the end of the bullpup? Plenty of people can argue with the Russians about it. Such as all the nations with a bullpup rifle in service or companies with bullpup designs on the market. And I'm not sure why you think calibre modularity would replace the advantages of a bullpup configuration, read some more about the reasons behind the bullpup design, there might be some overlap somewhere but the two features are different things...

And in regards to practical applications of the calibre modularity of a rifle, apart from sf, the military could change the mix of calibres in a infantry group depending on terrain and mission type, not instant hot swappability but over a few weeks/months. In afghanistan for example russian soldiers could have included more of the 7.62x51mm version of their rifle for more distance. For door kicking raids and in urban terrain such as in iraq they could have choosen the harder hitting 7.62x39mm calibre (maybe/eventually with a shorter barrel too?). Western forces already employ completely different weapon systems such as 7.62x51mm battle and dmr rifles. Australian troops in afghanistan were recently given HK417's as battle rifles.

Regarding the EF88 I believe it's no longer quick barrel change capable.

I don't see the issue in employing two or more different weapons systems for different roles. They're not intended to do the same thing, after all. Fielding a number of different small arms types is hardly disastrous, and filling a number of different roles with the same weapon platform isn't going to mean soldiers stop needing to train for different types of shooting. If the performance of each calibre is going to be significantly different enough that the weapon can fill multiple roles, then likely the training required to optimise a soldier's performance in that role will be somewhat different as well (happy to stand corrected on that from the people in here with real world experience, though).

Given the enhanced performance of the most recent 5.56mm ammunition, I don't see why multi-calibre modularity would be a priority. A mix of 5.56mm for service rifles and light machine guns along with 7.62mm for DMRs, sniper rifles and general purpose machine guns seems to work quite well as it is...