The Indonesian Army

[STURM]

Yes but what was the standard assault rifle prior to the AK-47s entering service in the early 1960's - or was it just a mix of weapons captured or transfered from the Dutch like M1s, Brens and Stens? Also, according to what I've read, in the early 1960's, Indonesia bought a small batch of M-16s which were used during the Confrontation. Do you know about this?

Also, did Indonesia obtain AK-47s from any other country apart from the Soviet Union. In the 1970's, as part of its aid to Cambodia, Indonesia also provide Cambodia with a shipment of AK-47s, some of which had been captured during the Confrontation and handed back to Indonesia for use in the invasion of Easst Timur. In the book 'The Gun' by Chivers, it's mentioned that the first AK-47 captured by the 'Western World' was one captured by the Dutch in Irian from Indonesian troops.

 

[Ananda]

Yes but what was the standard assault rifle prior to the AK-47s entering service in the early 1960's - or was it just a mix of weapons captured or transfered from the Dutch like M1s, Brens and Stens? Also, according to what I've read, in the early 1960's, Indonesia bought a small batch of M-16s which were used during the Confrontation. Do you know about this?

Record on Indonesian arms procurement in the 60's is not what you can called abundant. I have read in an old media article that put much of small armed procurement originated from Checkslovakia. Like I said there are not enough quantity of AK for TNI in the era (i speculated around 10,000), which in my book can't be catagorise as the standard weapons for TNI yet. In short, before the 70's with M-16, I think TNI still used mixed weapons as their assault weapons. The data that I got so far only show TNI procured M-16 in Soeharto era, and not before that.

 

[koxinga]

Post-independence, I read that they were armed primarily with ex-IJA's Type 38/Type 99 Arisaka's which were surrendered by the occupying IJA forces. These should be in widespread use for awhile.

 

[STURM]

Like I said there are not enough quantity of AK for TNI in the era (i speculated around 10,000), which in my book can't be catagorise as the standard weapons for TNI yet.

There were certainly not enough for the forthcoming invasion of East Timor. Benny Moerdeni had to make a request to Malaysia to have a small quantity of captured AKs returned to Indonesia to be issued to units earmarked for the invasion. This is mentioned in Conboy's ''Kopassus'', which benefited from the feedback of numerous former TNI-AD senior officers, including Benny Moerdeni.

The data that I got so far only show TNI procured M-16 in Soeharto era, and not before that.

I'm sure you're right but there are at least 2 documented incidents involving an attack by Korp Komando Operasi [KKO] troops during the Confrontation, who were armed with M-16s. Commonwealth and Malaysian troops during that period were armed with semi-auto SLRs. M-16s were only delivered to certain Commenwealth units in small quantities during the later stages of the Confrontation.

Are you aware of any previous attempts by PINDAD to export the FNC? Or perhaps the question I should be asking is was PINDAD allowed to export it, was it part of the contract signed with FN?

I've seen a pic of police units armed with AUGs. Any idea if these were bought direct from Steyr Mannlicher or elsewhere?

 

[Ananda]

I'm sure you're right but there are at least 2 documented incidents involving an attack by Korp Komando Operasi [KKO] troops during the Confrontation, who were armed with M-16s.

Are you aware of any previous attempts by PINDAD to export the FNC? Or perhaps the question I should be asking is was PINDAD allowed to export it, was it part of the contract signed with FN?

Like I said, Sturm, the official info that I gather so far only point out the existence of M-16 within TNI only occurred in Soeharto era. Several pictures that I've seen in media or local forum show that AK seems in the 60's equipped the elite forces like RPKAD (Precursor of Kopasus), Air Force special unit, Marines and Kostrad.

KKO was part of Marines, which according some data should have more access to AK. In fact, even in the 70's and 80's when most of the Army unit already standardize with M-16, the Navy and Marines units still hold large number of AK in their day to day operations. Some Marines personal on that days wrote in local forum that the Marines like AK better than M-16A1 (which mostly used by TNI in the 70's and 80's), due to their better resistance with salt water. Well at least that what they wrote.

Pindad try to get license of M-16A2 as based of their plan TNI Standard assault riffle in the late 70's. However from Pindad history that I've read, the M-16 manufacturer (Colt) ask much higher license fee and more stringent conditions than FN for their FNC, including the right to export SS1 (Pindad version of FNC). For that Pindad tied-in with FN for their National Assault Riffle program (SS1) with at first imported 10,000 pieces of FNC in 1982 and build under license as SS1 after that.

The Initial Invasion Force to East Timor, were using AK since part of Benny Moerdani's covert operations as Indonesian Volunteers (in support for UDT the smaller political factions in East Timor that rival Main Faction Fretilin). In fact the Indonesian Helicopters and Planes that support the first wave of Infiltration to East Timor (from West Timor border) use civilian insignia thus masked them from official TNI equipment. TNI officially begin the invasion to East Timor with the Amphibious landing in Dili beach as support for UDT forces (augmented by Indonesian Volunteers which mostly used AK) in East Timor civil war. In short most TNI regular (with exception perhaps the Marines) in East Timor invasions already used M-16. Indonesian Volunteers (as part Benny's covert operations) used AK.

For the Police AUG, from what I heard they bought it from Steyr. The procurement contract in the early-mid last decade was too murky to comprehend. Only for the last several years the Present Administrations able to discipline them somewhat, and today they already stated unless for obvious reasons, all small arms procurement for TNI and Police and other Government Insititutions must used Pindad products. Kopassus recently got some exception and allowed to procured some HK for their Special Units.

 

[Chino]

Despite what some short-sighted Singaporeans might way, I believe the there is value in helping Indonesia and the choices in strategic engagement of the TNI by the Singapore Government and the SAF. It is my hope that these out reach efforts will be remembered and rewarded by Indonesia (as a member of G20 and a growing middle power), in the decade to come. Both parties have progressively grown the military-military relationship in manner that reflects commitment that can be likened to a marriage according to some Indonesian commentators. It is my hope that we can maintain and grow this valued relationship in the days to come.

Call me short-sighted. :dance

90% of conflicts occur between neighbours. Why? You are close enough (proximity) to have things to quarrel over. And you are close enough to open fire.

We can trust Indonesia only as far as we can throw them. (No offense Ananda, nothing personal.)

We may be friends with this current Indon administration, or the current crop of TNI top brass. But who knows what the next change of civilian and/or military leaderships will bring?

We are no strangers to verbal threats and other provocative military actions from both our Indon and MY neighbours. There is also the further complicated issue of racial discrimination against ethnic Chinese people by many Indonesians. Should we pretend these dangers do not exists?

Sure we should always hold out one hand in friendship to Indonesia, but always carry a very big stick in the other as a deterrence.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Call me short-sighted. :dance

90% of conflicts occur between neighbours. Why? You are close enough (proximity) to have things to quarrel over. And you are close enough to open fire.

We can trust Indonesia only as far as we can throw them. (No offense Ananda, nothing personal.)

We may be friends with this current Indon administration, or the current crop of TNI top brass. But who knows what the next change of civilian and/or military leaderships will bring?

We are no strangers to verbal threats and other provocative military actions from both our Indon and MY neighbours. There is also the further complicated issue of racial discrimination against ethnic Chinese people by many Indonesians. Should we pretend these dangers do not exists?

Sure we should always hold out one hand in friendship to Indonesia, but always carry a very big stick in the other as a deterrence.

"We can trust Indonesia only as far as we can throw them." Sorry, i dont understand this sentence. Can you explain?

"There is also the further complicated issue of racial discrimination against ethnic Chinese people by many Indonesians. Should we pretend these dangers do not exists?" Dont worry about them, they posses 80% of our economy, many tv-channels are owned by Indonesian Chineses and almost all Indonesian boy-/girlband members are chinese. So they are not 'the underdog', their influence is so huge, even if 'we' (indigenous Indonesians) want to attack/invade SIN they will use their influence to stop us :soldier.

But now seriously, Mal, Sin or RI will never start a war for something small, its too expensive, it will cost too many lives and it will devastate the economy of the whole region.

 

[Ananda]

Call me short-sighted. :dance

90% of conflicts occur between neighbours. Why? You are close enough (proximity) to have things to quarrel over. And you are close enough to open fire.

We can trust Indonesia only as far as we can throw them. (No offense Ananda, nothing personal.)

Sure we should always hold out one hand in friendship to Indonesia, but always carry a very big stick in the other as a deterrence.

No offense for me. Plenty Indonesia and Malaysian have the same thinking that you have. Suspiscions on Indonesian administrations understandable, and I have said in this forum on several threads that if Soekarno still in power on the 70's the chances are Indonesia already nuclear armed.

This is not some nationalisyics hoping but enough effidence, some from IAEA show that Soekarno nuclear program was for military purpose with enough support from USSR. Seems the Sov hoping that some nuclear proliferation in SEA needed for maintaining the balance of their Influence. Why do you think old Lee so gratefull with Soeharto?

However if I disgress what OPSSG means is, whether we in this neighborhood thinking more for ourselves individually or together for the good of neighborhood. The SEA/ASEAN more and more in danger being played around as pawn by bigger power. Why do you think China keep insistance on dealing with SEA nations on South China sea bilaterally and not as group

Look many suspiscions between neighbors in ASEAN. Suspiscions on Indonesia and Malaysia that Singapore will play more on China interest is there simply due to dominance of ethnic Chinese in Singapore. Indonesian suspiscions with its own Chinese ethnic citizen still there. The choice is in ASEAN whether try to make more cohesive move as group or being played around as pawn individually.

 

[koxinga]

SBY is probably one of the most moderate President Indonesia has in the last few years. A lot of things can happen in the next few years. But what OPSSG said is merely a more realistic view. No doubt the region will move forward and the possibilities of a conflict intra-ASEAN is very very low. But to say it would never happen?

On another note, most Singaporean Chinese have a negative impression on China Chinese despite the high level diplomatic connections. The 'cousins' are not exactly welcomed.

 

[Ananda]

SBY is probably one of the most moderate President Indonesia has in the last few years. A lot of things can happen in the next few years. But what OPSSG said is merely a more realistic view. No doubt the region will move forward and the possibilities of a conflict intra-ASEAN is very very low. But to say it would never happen?

On another note, most Singaporean Chinese have a negative impression on China Chinese despite the high level diplomatic connections. The 'cousins' are not exactly welcomed.

Yes, but you can't blame some suspiscions from Singaporean non ethincs chinese neighbors on Singaporean more incline to China interest, simply due to Sinagpore ethnic Chinese dominance. Like I said suspiscions are there between neighbors.

However as Banker as living, I would say among neighbors Indonesia less likely to have armed conflict with Singapore compared to other its neigbors, due to close half of personal asset of its leading politicians, military leaders, businessman/woman from all ethinicity, religion and political background are in Singapore.

I can say a leading Politician in Indonesia that like to put nationalistic bravado and from time to time like in bashing Singapore and Malaysia on several issues, have two condominium in Bukit Timah and a big House in Damansara KL. Politics is politics. Business is different thing.

Indonesia interest with Singapore and Malaysia more interconected compared to other ASEAN neighbors. I would not say the possibility of conflict already gone entirelly, but it's getting smaller despites bashing from politicians (and fan boys in the imternet).

Again the only way for ASEAN nations not to be sided (even for its biggest member insize and economics) inInternational game is to move more cohesively as a group. It will not easy since the individual interest and suspicions still coming. However it's the way to do.

 

[STURM]

But now seriously, Mal, Sin or RI will never start a war for something small, its too expensive, .

If we ever reached a stage where open war were to break out between Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, there would be a very good reason for it, as all sides know that it woud be a very protracted affair with damaging long term consequences for all involved. Malaysia and Indonesia at the moment have far more important things to do and have enough on their plate to want to start a war with anyone. The MAF and TNI have much, much larger operational peacetime committments than the SAF and are having problems as it is, due to a shortage of assets - no thanks to their political masters - and are not equipped nor organised, yet, to wage war on anyone.

No doubt the region will move forward and the possibilities of a conflict intra-ASEAN is very very low.

It has always been low. No doubt certain countries have had border clashes with one another - Thailand and Laos in the 1980's and more recently Thailand with Myanmmar and Cambodia - but the chances of an actual full scale war involving ASEAN countries has always been low. Yes, each country has to be on guard against moves by fellow neighbours and we can talk about security and the need for a deterrent/the 'big stick' all we want, but the biggest threat currently facing ASEAN comes from elsewhere and from non-state actors. We are not in the 1970's, 1980's and 1980's anymore and times have changed - the threats facing ASEAN were not as clear cut as they were before.

 

[Chino]

"We can trust Indonesia only as far as we can throw them." Sorry, i dont understand this sentence. Can you explain?

It means that we cannot trust Indonesia and must always be wary, and keep them at a safe distance.

It sounds terrible but this is because we are all younf countries, with no history of deep collaboration in war like the US, British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealanders. And this again is hugely affected by the next issue - racial/religious differences. The 5 nations I mentioned above are all from the same Anglo-Saxon, English-speaking stock.

"There is also the further complicated issue of racial discrimination against ethnic Chinese people by many Indonesians. Should we pretend these dangers do not exists?" Dont worry about them, they posses 80% of our economy, many tv-channels are owned by Indonesian Chineses and almost all Indonesian boy-/girlband members are chinese. So they are not 'the underdog', their influence is so huge, even if 'we' (indigenous Indonesians) want to attack/invade SIN they will use their influence to stop us :soldier.

But now seriously, Mal, Sin or RI will never start a war for something small, its too expensive, it will cost too many lives and it will devastate the economy of the whole region.

I seriously do not think there will be war between us. What I am saying is we should continue with the current strategy of deterrence whereby we are able to retaliate with overwhelming force.

But you cannot pretend racial discrimination against people of ethnic Chinese race doesn't exist in Indonesia. It exists ALL OVER S.E.Asia. But Indonesia is the only one with the unpleasant record of having had at least two incidents of mass racial attacks against its own ethnic Chinese population, in the last 50 years. Not digging up the past but if you guys openly recognise the problem, it is the first step to solving it. And it is a long process. As of now, your ethnic Chinese Indonesian is so scared he doesn't even dared to speak out for his rights as a Chinese Indonesian. He just tries to hide his ethnicity as much as possible.

If I speak too frankly, please forgive me. : )

 

[OPSSG]

If I speak too frankly, please forgive me. : )

We have gone very far off-topic and we invite all to return to the topic at hand.

Many thanks, in-advance, for your co-operation.

 

[Chino]

Again the only way for ASEAN nations not to be sided (even for its biggest member insize and economics) inInternational game is to move more cohesively as a group. It will not easy since the individual interest and suspicions still coming. However it's the way to do.

In the SCS issue for example, we have very different interests. Compared to say, Philippines and Malaysia, Singapore is not a claimant state, and neither is Indonesia, IIRC. In this matter, will ASEAN have a unified voice?

However, Singapore already opens itself up to basing US warships, so, in a way, we are helping the ASEAN cause, if there is one.

 

[Chino]

Yes, each country has to be on guard against moves by fellow neighbours and we can talk about security and the need for a deterrent/the 'big stick' all we want, but the biggest threat currently facing ASEAN comes from elsewhere and from non-state actors. We are not in the 1970's, 1980's and 1980's anymore and times have changed - the threats facing ASEAN were not as clear cut as they were before.

True, and everyone in the region must adjust to the ever changing status quo.

Singapore and Thailand used to be two of the best-armed militaries in the region for the past few decades.

But we are beginning to see the TNI and MAF both moving quickly into a more conventional footing. Both countries now have modernised airforce and navies. And the army is catching up with MBT's, MLRS etc...

Luckily it is true as everyone has said, that relations between the players are getting better as they are all getting better-armed.

 

[Ananda]

Inilah 21 Program Pengadaan Alutsista TNI | News | Jurnal Parlemen

The site I put, is from official Indonesian Parliament sites. Show 21 priority procurement program that being pushed by Mindef to Parliament for approval. Of that only 5 has got budget approval for payment, while 16 still in the process.

By 31st of August parliament already approved one other program for budget allocation. Which on Indonesian process means final aproval for contract payment already being given. Thus 6 program already given approval by perliament to go ahead with final procurement process. Those six are: Transport Helicopter for Army (from other source indicated Bell 412), 6 Sukhoi Su-30 Mk2 (to make existing Flanker sq as full sq of 16 aircraft, my count thus made 12 Su-30 and 4 Su-27) and replacement for Hawk Mk-53 and Fokker F-27 ( KAI TA-50 and C-295) for the Air Force, and additional BMP-3F and 3 SSK for the Navy.

As this is Indonesian Army thread, I put the Army procurement that are still waiting final parliament procees are: Leopard MBT, 155 mm Field gun, MLRS (two MLRS in process one for Army and the other for Navy/Marines), and Attack Helicopter.

 

[Ananda]

More Light on Pindad Medium Tank Program

From Seputar Indonesia site : Harian Seputar Indonesia, Sumber Referensi Terpercaya

With Google Translate:

JAKARTA - The Indonesian government to explore the possibility of working together over medium tank manufacturing technology to Germany as part of the procurement of 100 units of main battle tanks (MBT) Leopard.

If this process smoothly, Indonesia in the future will produce medium tanks refer to the German Marder 1A3. Secretary General of the Ministry of Defense military Marsdya Herryanto Eris said the government is now in talks to be to work together over medium technology manufacturing Marder 1A3 tanks from Germany. "All major equipment purchase weapons systems (defense equipment) there is a transfer of technology (technology transfer / ToT ), "Eris said in Jakarta yesterday.

Although Indonesia currently does not currently make a purchase medium tank, the process of transfer of technology remains possible. However it depends on the process of talks between the two countries. "It's still a process. It was later part of the Leopard MBT procurement, "he said. He claimed the government had filed a formal request to the German government that they have been approved. "We're still going to talk about it to them.I can not communicate its decision," said Eris.

This statement gave more light on what so called Pindad 'medium tanks' project is. Local Forum already buzzing with this for some time, but this's the first official statement on what 'medium tanks' project aimed for. It's aimed to provide IFV as support for MBT and mobile gun platform as secondary tanks force.

Before the talk was Korean K-21 as based for Pindad medium tank project related to K1A1 deal. However with Leopard seems getting final deal for Indonesian first MBT, then Marder comes in play as part of deal. Both Korean and German offer ToT (Tech Transfer) as part of MBT deal, but it's clear the ToT is not for MBT manufacturing, but on IFV/Secondary Tanks as MBT support.

Unconfirmed report on Local forum say that Hyundai Rotem still talking with Pindad for K-21 regardless K1A1 did not get the MBT deal.

Politically, this medium tanks project (whether based on Marder or K-21) potentially will make the majority of future TNI Tanks force. It's also politically more acceptable by TNI 'old guard' which still see 60 ton + MBT is not suitable for Indonesian Geography.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

It means that we cannot trust Indonesia and must always be wary, and keep them at a safe distance.

It sounds terrible but this is because we are all younf countries, with no history of deep collaboration in war like the US, British, Canadian, Australian and New Zealanders. And this again is hugely affected by the next issue - racial/religious differences. The 5 nations I mentioned above are all from the same Anglo-Saxon, English-speaking stock.

But Indonesia is the only one with the unpleasant record of having had at least two incidents of mass racial attacks against its own ethnic Chinese population, in the last 50 years. Not digging up the past but if you guys openly recognise the problem, it is the first step to solving it. And it is a long process. As of now, your ethnic Chinese Indonesian is so scared he doesn't even dared to speak out for his rights as a Chinese Indonesian. He just tries to hide his ethnicity as much as possible.

If I speak too frankly, please forgive me. : )

You should search in the Wikipedia or other sites, the first recorded history of Chinese massacre in the country now called Indonesia was in Batavia 1740 by the Dutch. Ethnic Chinese and other ethnics relation in Indonesia I suppose is much more complicated than what you`ve said. I think the racial tension is getting much better now in Indonesia than before 1998. It`s not perfect yet but it`s getting better. You also can find that nowadays Chinese-Indonesian (we prefer to use the word "etnis Tionghoa" to distinguish them with China as a country) are more politically active.

No offense about the deterrence thing. Even the USA had Rainbow War Plan against the British Empire right before world war II.

It is called "civis pacem para bellum".

A small country like Singapore of course have higher risk if they do not have any plan against an immediate threat at its border.

But just like the other comments, I do not see any possibility of war between Singapore and Indonesia in the near future.

 

[koxinga]

From Seputar Indonesia site : Harian Seputar Indonesia, Sumber Referensi Terpercaya

With Google Translate:


This statement gave more light on what so called Pindad 'medium tanks' project is. Local Forum already buzzing with this for some time, but this's the first official statement on what 'medium tanks' project aimed for. It's aimed to provide IFV as support for MBT and mobile gun platform as secondary tanks force.

Before the talk was Korean K-21 as based for Pindad medium tank project related to K1A1 deal. However with Leopard seems getting final deal for Indonesian first MBT, then Marder comes in play as part of deal. Both Korean and German offer ToT (Tech Transfer) as part of MBT deal, but it's clear the ToT is not for MBT manufacturing, but on IFV/Secondary Tanks as MBT support.

Unconfirmed report on Local forum say that Hyundai Rotem still talking with Pindad for K-21 regardless K1A1 did not get the MBT deal.

Politically, this medium tanks project (whether based on Marder or K-21) potentially will make the majority of future TNI Tanks force. It's also politically more acceptable by TNI 'old guard' which still see 60 ton + MBT is not suitable for Indonesian Geography.

Interesting but wouldn't the Marder represent a older technology since these are being phased out in favour of the Puma? I would think that the K-21 is a much newer technology but the cost per unit are significantly higher. What are the considerations?

Is the plan similar to what Singapore did with the Leopard, by getting the existing Marders and have them upgraded by Rheinmetall ? The medium tank version looks alot like the TAM revisited.

 

[Chino]

It`s not perfect yet but it`s getting better. You also can find that nowadays Chinese-Indonesian (we prefer to use the word "etnis Tionghoa" to distinguish them with China as a country) are more politically active.

We have to respect the Mods' wishes not to add politics to this thread.

But what you're saying sounds great.