The Indonesian Army

[DavidDCM]

As Ananda said, the army is on the way to standardize its vehicles. But with limited budget as well as the limited production capacity of Pindad this is a very long procedure, taking many years. Even high budget countries like Germany cannot replace their entire vehicle fleet in one shift. Also note, that some planned versions of the Anoa are not yet developed. The mortar and direct fire support variants are not even in the prototype stage.

And just a quick note on the Leopard 2 versions: Leopard 2A6 with the older, shorter gun is Leopard 2A5. The only difference between A5 and A6 is the gun.

As Angela Merkel yesterday visited Indonesia and had talks with SBY, the Leopard 2 deal is growing in awareness with German media and public, and so does the resistance. Currently Indonesian Leopad 2 deal is all over the TV and newspapers here, and most are pretty negative about it.

 

[Ananda]

As Angela Merkel yesterday visited Indonesia and had talks with SBY, the Leopard 2 deal is growing in awareness with German media and public, and so does the resistance. Currently Indonesian Leopad 2 deal is all over the TV and newspapers here, and most are pretty negative about it.

Even in here, there still a lot of opposition for Leo 2 Purchase (heck even for any MBT purchase), from the concern that buying another Western tank will subjugate Indonesian defense policy to the Western opinion, to insistence that 60 ton+ tank is wasting money for Indonesian terrain.

For one thing is any Liberal NGO's/Human Rights campaigner already fell victory by Indonesian decision to get out from Dutch procurement (even before the Final decision from Dutch is come out). They believe they can do the same campaign in Germany.

This is not the first, in the 90's similar campaign also conducted in Britain for Scorpion-Stormer purchase that resulted some of the Scorpions being shipped to Indonesia on Unfinished conditions, thus need further assembly conducted in Pindad.

I believe, the German Leo 2 purchase is further test by Indonesian Mindef to see which Nation in Europe that will provide more reliable supplier for future Indonesian defense contract. From what I gather, Mindef already made conclusions that French is in their top list as most reliable Western Europe supplier. Thus Pindad already made several projects with them from Anoa (VAB derivative) to Elang/Eagle (Sherpa Derivative) Scout Armored vehicles. Local forum already buzzing with deal for Ceasar 155mm Self Propelled Gun, and in my opinion if there're bargain surplus Lecrec lying around in French Army Inventory just like Leo 2 in Bundeswher, Min-def already grab that also.

Those NGO's concern is that Leo 2 will be shipped to Papua and be used as Counter Insurgence asset there. It's political motivation by them, considering that Papua rebels is much less weaponized compared to GAM in Aceh, and Leo 2 is much less likely to be shipped out from Java or Sumatra for time being. Ironically, Ceasar is more probable being used in Papua compared to Leo 2 (unlikely anyway in my opinion since there're ample 105 mm gun already that can be more appropriate for any COIN operation)., still an opposition for MBT procurement seems more catching than opposition for 155mm SP-G system

Anyway, if Leo 2 procurement going through, then Leo 2 A5 (as upgrade A4 but with same 44 gun as you've stated) in my opinion more likely come out as the version. Getting A6 from Germany will costs more than present allocated budget (which aimed for Dutch bargain A6), and Min-def seems will not going to ask for more budget to the Parliament in hoping to steer clear from further political bruhaha.

 

[Ananda]

Got it from Local Forum (Kenyot 10 on kaskus), pictures of Local Design (Pindad ?) Armored Vehicle Transport. The Pictures show it transporting Alvis Saracen and Saladin. I do believe Saracen and Saladin despite further procurement of Anoa still being used for 'additional' mechanized battalions.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

But none of the vehicles you mentioned provide the same level of protection as a Leopard 2 and none can mount a 120mm gun as they are not MBTs.

What I meant was using them to fill out roles that wer just now filled by the new french vehicles and (If they are going to do so) by the CAESAR guns, wouldn't the K21 or Anoa's have the minimal requirements to mount a lightened 155mm gun on it's hull?

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

This is not the first, in the 90's similar campaign also conducted in Britain for Scorpion-Stormer purchase that resulted some of the Scorpions being shipped to Indonesia on Unfinished conditions, thus need further assembly conducted in Pindad.

I recall reading an article somewhere about how the original contract also includes Challenger 2 MBT's, but opposition coupled with local government corruption made the Challenger 2 offer dissapear.

Anyway, if Leo 2 procurement going through, then Leo 2 A5 (as upgrade A4 but with same 44 gun as you've stated) in my opinion more likely come out as the version. Getting A6 from Germany will costs more than present allocated budget (which aimed for Dutch bargain A6), and Min-def seems will not going to ask for more budget to the Parliament in hoping to steer clear from further political bruhaha.

Don't really think so since the government and army made it very clear they wanted A6's (or A7's if they actually do take up KMW's offer) for procurement, but we'll see. Then again wouldn't the L2 PSO be more viable for the army? since dealing with more urban and close quarter conditions is what the PSO is optimized for..

 

[DavidDCM]

What I meant was using them to fill out roles that wer just now filled by the new french vehicles and (If they are going to do so) by the CAESAR guns, wouldn't the K21 or Anoa's have the minimal requirements to mount a lightened 155mm gun on it's hull?

If you want to put everything into a standardized chassis, you have to invest a lot of money into research and development first, and the procurement takes much longer.

For Indonesia, it would already be a major step forward to standardize just the wheeled APC's. Instead of different units operating BTR-40, Saracen, V-150 and VAB, equip all of them just with the Anoa.

 

[koxinga]

The original plan and budget (USD280 million) was for 44 new L2A6, from KMW before the Dutch offer appeared with 100 units. I doubt they can stretch the same budget for 100 tanks now, unless they go for used A4s(which could be as low as 250k-300k) and budget the upgrades separately.

Re Anoa, Ananda may want to confirm but I understand that Indonesia Mindef had signed on for new units in addition to the 2008 contract for 155. I am not sure of the numbers though.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Then again wouldn't the L2 PSO be more viable for the army? since dealing with more urban and close quarter conditions is what the PSO is optimized for..

Urban warfare? Most NGOs rejection and also Dutch parliament objection reason was concern about Indonesian Army would use the Leo against its own population, like what happened in Arab springs.

Indonesia needs to ensure the supplier that Leo will not be used against its own citizen either in the city or to hunt guerillas in Papua remote areas equipped with spears and arrows in order to avoid further rejection.

The main reason for Leo procurement is to get balance with neighbors which already operate MBT-especially Malaysia since Indonesia has land border with Malaysia with old history of confrontation in 1960s and some unfinished territorial disputes.

The best hope for the Leo will be as deterrent factor to prevent other country with territorial disputes with Indonesia believe that they has the upper hand, therefore no one will start a war, and peace could be maintained.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

On a side note, anyone heard anything about the Airbus A400M tour that came here a few months ago? I believe purchasing the C-130H's from Australia or new C-130J's isn't really worth it. Airbus Military said they would allow PT DI to make A400M's here if they purchase them over C-130's not to mention the A400M's has a better operating range and it would give PT DI an economic boost in production and experience...

 

[the road runner]

I believe purchasing the C-130H's from Australia

The 4 C-130H were "Gifted" to Indonesia.Dont think Indonesia paid anything for them.
As for Airbus A-400 being "Made" in Indonesia,have you got a link for this?
I assume if anything ,the A-400 would be put together in Indonesia ,by parts supplied by Airbus?

 

[Ananda]

The 4 C-130H were "Gifted" to Indonesia.Dont think Indonesia paid anything for them.
As for Airbus A-400 being "Made" in Indonesia,have you got a link for this?
I assume if anything ,the A-400 would be put together in Indonesia ,by parts supplied by Airbus?

Those 4 C-130H airframes is indeed a 'grant' from Australia to Indonesia, however Indonesia still need to pay for the upgrade and modifications which current estimate (still the estimation since official inspections not finished yet) amounted to USD 60 mio for those 4 C-130H.

This is the simmilar arrangement with 24 F-16 'Grant' from US, which Indonesia need to pay USD 750 mio for the upgrade and modifications.

As for A-400, no definite arrangement for that. This is the link from Antara news agency (sorry in Bahasa) Berita | PTDI-Konsorsium Eropa Jajaki Tingkatkan Kerja Sama
Which show the length of cooperation between EADS and DI (Indonesian Aerospace). Basically DI already become one of relative big parts supplier for EADS in the A-320/321, A-350, and A-380. For EADS military besides the cooperation for CN-235, DI now already been chosen as C-212 and C-295 manufacture. No other mentioned for A-400 so far. However it's not impossible for DI future involvement with A-400 if Indonesian AF choose to buy them.

I do believe any procurement for A-400 will be some time in the future (if any) since so far Indonesian AF path still maintaining C-130 (with emphasizes to Standardize the fleet to C-130H, upgrade existing airframe and procured/upgrade few 'used' C-130H).

I recall reading an article somewhere about how the original contract also includes Challenger 2 MBT's, but opposition coupled with local government corruption made the Challenger 2 offer dissapear.

I do remembered in the 90's during Soeharto regime, the initial procurement for TNI-AD tanks before Alvis Scorpion-Stormer was Leopard 1. This was mentioned in Tempo magazine, which one of the 'reasons' besides the magazine article on procurement of 'used' East German fleet as example, that made the magazine banned by mid 90's and only re-emerge after Soeharto fall.

Why it become sensitive, because the German reportedly arrange the offered through Habibie ( As Soeharto most trusted man at that time), while in the same time the British arrange another offered of Alvis Scorpion-Stormer through Soeharto's children.

In the end it's not a surprising result, the Children won, and the Alvis Scorpion family inducted to TNI-AD. There's no opposition at that time. It's Soeharto era, nobody dared to become opposition at that time, let alone an opposition for defense procurement. It's a very dangerous (and potentially fatal) thing to do

 

[Ananda]

The original plan and budget (USD280 million) was for 44 new L2A6, from KMW before the Dutch offer appeared with 100 units. I doubt they can stretch the same budget for 100 tanks now, unless they go for used A4s(which could be as low as 250k-300k) and budget the upgrades separately.

Re Anoa, Ananda may want to confirm but I understand that Indonesia Mindef had signed on for new units in addition to the 2008 contract for 155. I am not sure of the numbers though.

It's rumored the additional Anoa contract is for 100 vehicle. Pindad CEO already told Media they will got additional USD 300 mio+ (around IDR 3.1 T) multi years contract from Mindef up until 2014. The contract is for Anoa, Sherpa based Scout Armored Vehicle, and 4x4 Utility Vehicles (local forum called them Garda). However no info on the exact number.

As for Leo 2, I do believe USD 280 mio on initial budget will not be enough for 100 Leo 2 A6. That's why, on previous posts, I suspect it will be for A4 upgraded to A6 class but with L44 original gun (and not L55 A6 gun), thus as David said A5. However if they got another deal or budget, then perhaps it can be for A6.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

As for Leo 2, I do believe USD 280 mio on initial budget will not be enough for 100 Leo 2 A6.

I read an article that said the amount of tanks IS the same with the dutch offer, but it says that KMW offered additional upgrades to the tanks that would include a price increase. I think that what is actually meant, not less tanks.

In the end it's not a surprising result, the Children won, and the Alvis Scorpion family inducted to TNI-AD.

Leave it to the spoiled brats to make our army a laughing stock to the region, rather than a man who has the technological aptitude to know what is the best four our army.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesian Min-Def claims the Procurement of Leo 2 is in-track and near completion : Kemhan: proses pembelian tank Leopard selesai - AntaraNews.com

From Antara News Agency with Google Translate:

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - The Ministry of Defense claimed that the purchase of Main Batle Tank (MBT) of the German Leopard 100 units have been completed, even later on 15 October 2012 on the tank unit has arrived in Indonesia.

"In October 2012, coinciding TNI Anniversary, you will see 15 units of the Leopard Tank," said Head of Public Communication Kemhan, Brigadier General Hartind Asrin disruption in response to concerns DPR will purchase Leopard tank for the refusal of some members of the German parliament, on Friday.

According to him, the arrival of tanks weighing 60 tons that will continue to arrive with a total of 100 units by 2014. The objections of some lawmakers, especially from the opposition party, does not interfere with the process of purchasing the tank.

"The rejection does exist, but only in a small discussion. But, do not make purchases tank collapses," said Hartind.

A total of 15 tanks that will be in the first phase scheduled to be deployed in the area of ​​Java. However, do not close the possibility of tank that came later would be sent to the border areas.

"We are preparing the ship to transport it if it will be placed there," he said.

Indonesian Min-def claim that by TNI aniversary parade, 15 Leo 2 already In Indonesia and will be participate in the parade. All contract consists of 100 vehicles and will be located/stationed first in Java.

From other sources, currently only 4 Makasar LPD that can tranport those Leo 2, since the other LST is not build for tranporting 60 ton MBT. However Min-def do have contract for (up to) 7 locally build 117 m LST that according to the manufactures (DKB Shipyard in Jakarta) can transport 60 ton MBT.

 

[OPSSG]

Indonesian Min-def claim that by TNI aniversary parade, 15 Leo 2 already In Indonesia and will be participate in the parade. All contract consists of 100 vehicles and will be located/stationed first in Java.

Congratulations and I hope that this will be an opportunity for TNI and the SAF to grow deeper and closer ties via increasing joint training opportunities for armour operations and in the use of armour in urban operations. The process of conducting joint training exercises can also serve to deepen defence co-operation ties between ASEAN states.

Despite what some short-sighted Singaporeans might way, I believe the there is value in helping Indonesia and the choices in strategic engagement of the TNI by the Singapore Government and the SAF. It is my hope that these out reach efforts will be remembered and rewarded by Indonesia (as a member of G20 and a growing middle power), in the decade to come. Both parties have progressively grown the military-military relationship in manner that reflects commitment that can be likened to a marriage according to some Indonesian commentators. It is my hope that we can maintain and grow this valued relationship in the days to come.

 

[Ananda]

Congratulations and I hope that this will be an opportunity for TNI and the SAF to grow deeper and closer ties via increasing joint training opportunities for armour operations and in the use of armour in urban operations. The process of conducting joint training exercises can also serve to deepen defence co-operation ties between ASEAN states.

There's rumors in local forum from some forumers (seems he/she a Journalist with connection in Min-def), which already shown quite a degree of reliability on his/her rumors. anyway he/she told the forum that the actual number will not be 100, but 'only' 78. Why the decreased in number ? Well TNI-AD insists on getting Leo 2 A6, while the approved budget can get that number from Netherland (since their Leo 2 on sale), but seems will not get that number from German. Also seems the Leo 2 A6 from German will further got more upgrade. Whether all upgrade will be in German, or some work sub contract to Pindad remain to be seen.

Anyway 78 means (according to TNI-AD current Cavalry Orbat) enough for 2 Battalions. TNI-AD Cavalry batalion actually a Hybrid between Tanks and IFV/APC. The batalions that rumors will got those Leo 2 are located in Jakarta area and the Other in East Java. The Jakarta battalion now operate Alvis Scorpion (as Tank) and Stormer (as IFV). Seems the Alvis vehicles will be move outside Java. Will be interested to see what will be used as IFV to accompany those Leo 2 (if the deal come through). Could be Anoa ?

The 15 Leo 2 that come to Jakarta in October is rumors as 'loan' from Bundeswher to get TNI-AD personal proficiency in operating Leo 2.

 

[STURM]

Ananda,

Any idea as to how many Scorpions are fitted with the 90mm Cockerill and if any of the Stormers have an auto cannon?

 

[DavidDCM]

Sturm,

I'm not Ananda, but still: All Indonesian Scorpions are fitted with the Cockerill gun, and none of the Stormers are fitted with autocannons.

 

[Ananda]

Thanks David for the explanation. from what I gather through some sources, TNI-AD has (officially) 100 Alvis Scorpion. Just like David says, all Scorpion bought by Indonesian Army uses Cockerill 90 mm gun.

The Alvis armored vehicles (especially the Scorpion) were assembled by PT. Pindad. Since at the time the contract commencing (early 90's), there're some opposition in UK for the deal due to East Timor massacre. Thus, the scorpion being send to Indonesia on semi-knock down condition.

Attached is a photo for Indonesian Stromer, which as you can see Sturm, they use manual 12.7 mm gun.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thanks David for the explanation. from what I gather through some sources, TNI-AD has (officially) 100 Alvis Scorpion. Just like David says, all Scorpion bought by Indonesian Army uses Cockerill 90 mm gun.

Wasn't it 50 Scorpion 90s and around 40 Stormers?

The batalions that rumors will got those Leo 2 are located in Jakarta area and the Other in East Java. The Jakarta battalion now operate Alvis Scorpion (as Tank) and Stormer (as IFV).

Ah....KOSTRAD