New Indian Air Force Fighter competition

[Vivendi]

I wasn't comparing Dassault's bid with Eurofighter's bid, rather Dassault's MMRCA bid with other unsuccessful Dassault Rafale bids.

Well that was not clear from your post, but anyway I don't understand why you bring that up in this context since we are talking about the MMRCA which had only 2 fighters on the short list; the Typhoon and the Rafale. It does not really matter then that Rafale is expensive compared to eg the SH or F-16 since neither of them made it to the short list.

There are a ton. Rafale wasn't bid on it's current spec, but rather with a still developing AESA radar (I know it's cleared for production, but there's still plenty of on-going work needed for it), an upgraded Damocles targetting pod still in development, upgraded engines which are still in development, upgraded OSF still in development, varying weapons integration and development projects including Meteor and semi-active laser and 125kg variants of AASM and so on.

Also the SH was offered to India in a config that does not fly yet. Anyway all fighters are undergoing continous development; if not they are dead in the water.

Could you elaborate on the upgraded engines that are still in development?

In any case, I still believe the Indians passed up the best multi-role aircraft in the world currently, in the Super Hornet when they passed on it.

What you are I believe is not really important in this context; the IAF had their list of requirements and the SH did not meet those requirements, so it was dropped.

Let's see the Rafale or the Typhoon's Growler equivalent or buddy tankers. Let's see either of their anti-radar missiles now or planned...

I don't know about the Typhoon but AFAIK the Rafale can do buddy-buddy tanking. I don't think India asked for anything like Growler so again, it's irrelevant for the current discussion. As for anti-radar missiles; again that cannot have been a requirement however if India wants it integrated on Rafale in the future then I'm sure it will be.

 

[Vivendi]

My point exactly. I know the Rafalites...

I guess we should call you a SuperHornite then?

What has been holding up the development of both Rafale and Typhoon has mainly been budget allocations (or rather, lack thereof). For Rafale that will now change.

I am very confident that the Rafales delivered to the IAF will meet or exceed their requirements and expectations. I will not use terms like "the best multirole fighter in the world" (I find them rather meaningless) however I also believe the Indian Rafales will compare very well to any other 4. gen fighter available at that time point.

 

[jack412]

What you are I believe is not really important in this context; the IAF had their list of requirements and the SH did not meet those requirements, so it was dropped.

I'm sure there are many reasons why the Rafale was selected, but obviously combat radars, weapons and systems wasn't high on the list

..:: India Strategic ::.. India set to decide big military aircraft deals
Asked if the Eurofighter and Rafale were superior in technologies to the other four contenders – Boeing F/A 18 IN Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F 16 IN, Swedish Gripen and Russian Mig 29 –

the Air Chief said: “In all fairness, all the six aircraft in the competition were good, and more or less close to one another in performance. But some of them had to be out, and some had to be in, and that’s it. Let’s say that the two European finalists were the most-compliant in the 600-plus parameters that the IAF selection team had set.”

The Air Chief observed that admittedly, the US had the best of the combat radars, weapons and systems But then, each of the six contenders had given in writing that they would match the IAF requirements, including those for systems to be sourced from the US.

I guess we should call you a SuperHornite then?

What has been holding up the development of both Rafale and Typhoon has mainly been budget allocations (or rather, lack thereof). For Rafale that will now change.

I am very confident that the Rafales delivered to the IAF will meet or exceed their requirements and expectations. I will not use terms like "the best multirole fighter in the world" (I find them rather meaningless) however I also believe the Indian Rafales will compare very well to any other 4. gen fighter available at that time point.

I couldn't agree more, I feel up to now the Rafale was a waste of a good plane with the lack of upgrading needed to fulfill its potential, lets hope the French and Indians have a successful partnership

 

[the road runner]

The Air Chief observed that admittedly, the US had the best of the combat radars, weapons and systems But then, each of the six contenders had given in writing that they would match the IAF requirements, including those for systems to be sourced from the US.

This point has always stuck out to me.India has stated the US had better weapons,better Radar and systems.Sorry but isnt this what you want ,to have a advantage compared to your adversary.So the EF and Rafale will be upgraded over time.Looks to me as if the EF and Rafale are playing catch up to the American offerings.

I couldn't agree more, I feel up to now the Rafale was a waste of a good plane with the lack of upgrading needed to fulfill its potential, lets hope the French and Indians have a successful partnership

Agreed.I think this is the Point that AD was making,if France and India have to upgrade the Rafale,with ASEA, new weapons ect,to bring it up to the same Tech as the US offerings,but it takes 5-10 years to happen,wouldnt you agree that the US will be putting a more advanced system in their Aircraft in future (5-10) years?

Im with you tho,hope all the works carried out on the Rafale will be a smooth integration of systems and weapons.

 

[jack412]

Or it could be as simple as India wants an indigenous aero industry and the French were desperate enough for the sale to give away their 1980's tech, the French fast plane future was looking very dark.
one can assume their R&D has moved forward a lot from the 80's and it's not a risk to their national security

 

[Twinblade]

This point has always stuck out to me.India has stated the US had better weapons,better Radar and systems.Sorry but isnt this what you want ,to have a advantage compared to your adversary.So the EF and Rafale will be upgraded over time.Looks to me as if the EF and Rafale are playing catch up to the American offerings.

It is rumoured that SH and viper didn't do well in summer trials at Leh AFB, which was perhaps the toughest trial for all the contenders, but all 6 aircrafts managed to clear 95% of the 643 evaluation parameters. This meant that the competition was cut throat and poor performance in a couple of evaluation parameters put any of the aircraft at the risk of being knocked out.

Besides if you look at the number of upgrades planned for flankers after a decade of service, it seems that IAF believes that the avionics can be jacked up but the airframe can't. Perhaps the same thing went in favour of Rafale and EF, whose current radars are already rated very highly and were able to demonstrate a development path for their aesa versions.

 

[jack412]

It's said the Leh was simply adjusting fuel management, the Gripen passed with a hornet engine, but I accept your point about the airframe and avionics, computer system, a major change may require a rewire, rebalancing the planes CoG and basic flight testing again .
As far as I have read, the EF and Rafale AESA was included in the eval that the US radars exceeded

 

[colay]

Aren't the F-16 and F-18SH pretty much sunset platforms? I don't think it helped their case any when the USAF and USN have commited to the F-35. Neither service is likely to commit limited funds to any further major development of the 2 legacy platforms. Neither LM or Boeing will fund such enhancements so it's going to be for the account of the customer making them a less attractive proposition.

 

[Twinblade]

It's said the Leh was simply adjusting fuel management, the Gripen passed with a hornet engine, but I accept your point about the airframe and avionics, computer system, a major change may require a rewire, rebalancing the planes CoG and basic flight testing again .
As far as I have read, the EF and Rafale AESA was included in the eval that the US radars exceeded

It was reported that 4 contenders had failed to meet the criteria in Leh (excluding Gripen NG which hadn't been tried out at Leh at that point). It is rumoured that the tests at Leh involved restrictions on usage of after-burner and/or simulation of engine damage (for twin engine fighters) with a specified combat load.

 

[jack412]

I think the Gripen passed when it went to Leh at a later date.
This was what I was referring to with the fuel
The Hindu : News : Gripens head for AFS Jaisalmer
While one of the Gripens will undertake hot weather trials in and around the AFS Jaisalmer and later take off to perform a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran test range, the other fighter, as part of the cold weather trials, will land in Leh, switch off, refuel and then take off again.

The officials confided that four of the five aircraft in the MMRCA competition faced problems starting up in the rarefied atmosphere of Leh, and the IAF had to ask the manufacturers to undertake modifications in the aircraft's fuel systems.

 

[Twinblade]

^^ Oh. I think I must have mixed up the results of winter and summer trials at Leh. Thanks for correction.

 

[DeathAngel]

Apparently the reason of the Rafale's selection over the Eurofighter was the lower life cycle costs.

Times of India website. IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review. Feb 8 ,2012

Is the lower cost (direct acquisition and life cycle) country specific or a general statement? If the Rafale proves so substantially cheaper than the Eurofighter, and given that the two aircraft are reasonably similar in ability, then the Rafale becomes a better choice for other countries where these two aircraft are competing. Brazil for example, needs 36 more fighters, and since India is sharing evaluation details with it, will that affect their selection?

 

[RobWilliams]

Interesting article from DT

Rafale MMRCA Deal: Last Minute Glitches? | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk

Media reports recently surfaced stating that the Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, which had zeroed in on the French Dassault Rafale as the fighter of choice leading to commencement of exclusive negotiations with Dassault for finalizing the contract, is far from final.

These reports have been attributed to parties that do have a poker in the fire: Germany, which backed the Eurofighter Typhoon; and, Russia whose MiG-35 was also in the competition. German sources claim that there have been discussions between German and Indian officials on the issue and a re-worked offer for the Eurofighter Typhoon may be in the process of being finalized. For their part, Russian sources have claimed that there is strong likelihood of the tender for the MMRCA being re-floated by the Indian Government.

If it's true, it certainly backs the statements from the UK + BAE that the EF consortium were still were pushing for the Eurofighter.

Certainly isn't positive from a Dassault perspective.

 

[colay]

Interesting article from DT

Rafale MMRCA Deal: Last Minute Glitches? | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk



If it's true, it certainly backs the statements from the UK + BAE that the EF consortium were still were pushing for the Eurofighter.

Certainly isn't positive from a Dassault perspective.

It could just be a negotiating ploy by the Indians to pressure the French into making concessions.

 

[RobWilliams]

It could just be a negotiating ploy by the Indians to pressure the French into making concessions.

Could be, can't beat a good deal!

But considering one of the early criteria at some point of the testing was "price is not an issue" + actually concentrating on the capabilities of the aircraft, I doubt they're penny-pinching now.

Especially with what the Indians are currently doing with their military.

 

[Twinblade]

Interesting article from DT

Rafale MMRCA Deal: Last Minute Glitches? | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk



If it's true, it certainly backs the statements from the UK + BAE that the EF consortium were still were pushing for the Eurofighter.

Certainly isn't positive from a Dassault perspective.

It could just be a negotiating ploy by the Indians to pressure the French into making concessions.

Could be, can't beat a good deal!

But considering one of the early criteria at some point of the testing was "price is not an issue" + actually concentrating on the capabilities of the aircraft, I doubt they're penny-pinching now.

Especially with what the Indians are currently doing with their military.

All rumours and conjectures gents

Official MoD press release :-
Press Information Bureau English Releases

Ministry of Defence
03-September, 2012 15:31 IST
Combat Aircraft
The proposal for procurement of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) is presently at the stage of commercial discussions. The proposal is being progressed in accordance with the provisions of Defence Procurement Procedure.

All Capital procurements are processed as per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), which ensures conformity to the highest standards of transparency, probity and public accountability.

This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Kaushalendra Kumarin Lok Sabha today.

HS/HH/NN
(Release ID :87215)

..and straight from the horse's mouth

India to ink $11 billion MMRCA deal with Rafale by next month: Indian Air Force official

BANGALORE: India plans to sign the $11 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal with French Rafale by the end of this month-end or next month, a senior Indian Air Force official said today.


"I find no reason why it shouldn't be signed by the end of this month or next month", Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, IAF, Air Marshal Rajinder Singh said.

 

[the road runner]

..and straight from the horse's mouth

India to ink $11 billion MMRCA deal with Rafale by next month: Indian Air Force official

In the above article the Air Marshal admitted

The Air Marshal admitted to "some problems" (on pricing) but asserted that it's not unusual in such big deals. "It should come through", he said, adding that the first aircraft under the MMRCA deal would start "flowing in" in 2017.

In defence talk news it states the Rupee has dropped by 25% in purchasing power.
I wonder if India will receive all of its fighters or if some numbers may be cut?
The reason why i think this may happen is because a number of country's around the world are cutting defence budgets/ hardware because of the GFC

I do hope this is NOT the case,but a 25% decline in the purchasing power of your dollar would be a worrying sign?

India

 

[USAF77]

Well this was a no brainer. I think India just wanted to get its hands on different machines and compare them. No real enthusiast, let alone expert, should have doubted India was going to go with the Rafael.

The plane is a custom fit for a country wanting a very good multi-role, they can launch off a carrier, arm with nukes, and sold by a country that doesnt ask questions. Most of all one desperate to sell a fine design that was just rolled out at the wrong time.

I avoid Politics but they are as much a part of this thing as the Raf's wings. The USA leaving their enemy in the lurch over F-16s didnt swallow well with India, "even if it was the right thing to do". I think it damaged our chances to sell advanced hardware to India for some time.

But the Raf was a custom fit for them. Congrats to the French. I cant see the French allowing the Rupee's value to cut this deal down. They will try and find some kind of economic frame work to keep the production line going as long as possible. To much is riding on this order.

 

[swerve]

In the above article the Air Marshal admitted



In defence talk news it states the Rupee has dropped by 25% in purchasing power.
I wonder if India will receive all of its fighters or if some numbers may be cut?
The reason why i think this may happen is because a number of country's around the world are cutting defence budgets/ hardware because of the GFC

I do hope this is NOT the case,but a 25% decline in the purchasing power of your dollar would be a worrying sign?

India

Currencies fluctuate. India has fairly high inflation (much higher than the USA or any EU country), & the rupee should therefore depreciate on currency markets accordingly. The corollary of inflation is that anything denominated in rupees goes up, including incomes & tax revenues, balanced out by depreciation abroad.

If rupee prices doubled, & the rupee dropped by 50% against the euro, everything would be exactly where it started out.

 

[StobieWan]

I seem to recall the French being creative in putting deals together before - is there a possibility of trading goods for some of the deal ?Anything to offset the currency fluctuation ?