Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Seaforth

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In the 1982 south atlantic conflict, subsonic Sea Harriers were pitched against subsonic Skyhawks as well as supersonic Daggers and Mirage.

Firstly, the supersonic aircraft were forced to fly subsonically due to drop tanks, payload, and fuel range / refuelling issues.

Secondly, while the Sea Harriers carried AIM9L sidewinders, those that were launched were all fired from traditional 9B rear aspect positions.

Thirdly, Skyhawks still managed to get past sophisticated, tiered air defences and bomb (and in some cases sink) contemporary modern warships.

So in summary, a squadron of carrier borne RAN Skyhawks with AIM9B Skyhawks and freefall bombs would have been a very effective force back in 1968 - fourteen years before 1982.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
In the 1982 south atlantic conflict, subsonic Sea Harriers were pitched against subsonic Skyhawks as well as supersonic Daggers and Mirage.

Firstly, the supersonic aircraft were forced to fly subsonically due to drop tanks, payload, and fuel range / refuelling issues.

Secondly, while the Sea Harriers carried AIM9L sidewinders, those that were launched were all fired from traditional 9B rear aspect positions.

Thirdly, Skyhawks still managed to get past sophisticated, tiered air defences and bomb (and in some cases sink) contemporary modern warships.

So in summary, a squadron of carrier borne RAN Skyhawks with AIM9B Skyhawks and freefall bombs would have been a very effective force back in 1968 - fourteen years before 1982.
Agreed. The RAN certainly thought so and wanted to order 18 Skyhawks as well as 24 Trackers to replace the older Sea Venoms and Gannets. Alas, budget restraints and the emphasis on ASW warfare at the time saw only the Trackers (just 14 initially) ordered. Before the Trackers were delivered, however, 10 Skyhawks were ordered to replace the flight of Sea Venoms that were carried primarily to keep long range shadowing aircraft away from the fleet. The navy recognised the value of the Skyhawk as being more than a shadhacker and an additional 10 (plus some more Trackers) were subsequently acquired giving the Melborrne a strike capability once again. Contingency planning was in place for up to 14 Skyhawks to be embarked for strike operations but the most ever carried (from my research) was 10 (one exercise only) with 8 being the standard number. As aircraft were lost to attrition the embarked number was reduced and only 6 were embarked the last time I visited Melbourne.

Prior to the decision to acquire Invincible approval was sought for additional Skyhawks to replace those that had been lost but this was not followed through as a result of the decision to replace Melbourne with a VSTOL only carrier.

IMO the Skyhawk, whilst designed as an attack aircraft, was an ideal fighter bomber for a light carrier. In RAN service the main limitation was that lack of numbers reduced the strike potential of the Melbourne's airgroup.

Tas
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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IMO the Skyhawk, whilst designed as an attack aircraft, was an ideal fighter bomber for a light carrier. In RAN service the main limitation was that lack of numbers reduced the strike potential of the Melbourne's airgroup.
While the A-4G Skyhawk purchased by the RAN retained a lot of the strike capability of the A-4F (but not all) it was purchased as a fighter. And because it was the standard USN defensive fighter for ASW carriers at the time. With its high rate of climb and tight turning circle the Skyhawk made for a pretty good interceptor under interception control of the carrier.

It was no surprise the RAN ordered the Skyhawk because it was reequipping HMAS Melbourne with US aircraft for its role as an ASW carrier. Like USN ASW carriers of the time it had an air wing of Trackers, Skyhawks and ASW helos (Wessex). But because it was smaller didn’t have the Tracer AEW or the same endurance as the Essex class carriers used as USN ASW carriers. The RAN had requested an Essex class to replace Melbourne with an air wing of Phantoms, Trackers, Tracers and Wessex. But the Menzies Govt. rejected this as too costly.

Also to replace the Sea Venom on a Majestic class light fleet carrier the RAN had very little choice for fighters. The Majestic class was limited to aircraft with a gross weight of 25,000 lbs. So larger aircraft like the Crusader and Sea Vixen couldn’t be flown to and from HMAS Melbourne. The only other in production fighter in the Melbourne’s weight class was the French Étendard IV. While a bit zippier than the Skyhawk the Étendard IV couldn’t carry as much payload and lacked the common spare parts and training chain with the USN.

Northrop tried to offer a navalised F-5 Tiger and CAC their CA-31 but the RAN wasn’t interested in paper planes. When the Skyhawk was selected for the ASW carrier fighter role Lockheed offered a radar equipped version of their Seastar trainer (itself developed from the P-80 Shooting Star) the CL-352. But since the USN chose the cheaper Skyhawk this light all weather, twin seat fighter wasn’t to be.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm a bit foggy on the details but my mates who flew the A4's
circa 1980, often talked about the early Red Flag exercises when the bad guys (orange) flew hawks and always whipped arse over more modern aircraft at low altitude. Something to do with sub-sonic wings and all that gumpf.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A little of topic, my uncle was a cook on Melbourne and I remember on a visit the "Tram Track's" that had been made to park the A4's a bit further off the flight deck to make more room, very smart idea :) Does anyone know what year they were actually installed on her ? I have been looking but can't find a refernce to when or who came up with the idea ?

Cheers
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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A little of topic, my uncle was a cook on Melbourne and I remember on a visit the "Tram Track's" that had been made to park the A4's a bit further off the flight deck to make more room, very smart idea :) Does anyone know what year they were actually installed on her ? I have been looking but can't find a refernce to when or who came up with the idea ?
Here’s two pictures from the A-4 Skyhawk association webpage. One with the Skyhawk taxing forward and the other with some goofers using one for pondering. They were installed in the 70s, don’t know when.

BuNo 154903 RAN 882 | A-4 Skyhawk Association

155052 VF-805 Laurie Hillier 4977 | A-4 Skyhawk Association
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
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Here’s two pictures from the A-4 Skyhawk association webpage. One with the Skyhawk taxing forward and the other with some goofers using one for pondering. They were installed in the 70s, don’t know when.

BuNo 154903 RAN 882 | A-4 Skyhawk Association

155052 VF-805 Laurie Hillier 4977 | A-4 Skyhawk Association
Cheers for that Abe, I will maybe try and contact someone from the site and see what I can dig up, I like the ponderer's, are they fishing poles in the background ? lol
maybe they are waiting for a bite
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Here’s two pictures from the A-4 Skyhawk association webpage. One with the Skyhawk taxing forward and the other with some goofers using one for pondering. They were installed in the 70s, don’t know when.

BuNo 154903 RAN 882 | A-4 Skyhawk Association

155052 VF-805 Laurie Hillier 4977 | A-4 Skyhawk Association
Some ex Handler/FDO could give a better answer but I think they were an imperative because of the critical clearance issue with the S2 wingspan (10ft IIRC)
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Cheers for that Abe, I will maybe try and contact someone from the site and see what I can dig up, I like the ponderer's, are they fishing poles in the background ? lol
maybe they are waiting for a bite
Not sure if you're taking the piss :D but they're whip aerials lowered for flight ops.
Cheers
 

olde navy

New Member
Tram Traqcks

Some ex Handler/FDO could give a better answer but I think they were an imperative because of the critical clearance issue with the S2 wingspan (10ft IIRC)
For my first post on the forum I have a topic I am very familiar with. I served 20 years as an Aircraft Handler from 1961 - 1981 in all ranks up to Chief with half this time either posted to the flight deck or embarked squadrons.

The tram tracks were installed to enable A4's to remain in this parking area during Tracker recovery. In one of the photos you can see a white line passing under the A4. this is the safety line for aircraft recovery. Everything and every body is to be behind this line for Tracker recovery. If the A4 in the photo was parked on the tracks it would be inside the safety line.

I'm having trouble remembering exactly when the tracks were installed but I'm thinking about mid '70's.

As an aside I feel very proud to have served in the FAA when it was at its pinnacle during the '70's. Sure, Melbourne was an old ship that took a lot of hard work and long hours to keep going but we all loved her.

I'v been reading this forum for a number of years now and finally a topic came up that I know a bit about. I'm afraid technology has overtaken me with regard to Navy in this age. Hell, I'm still trying to work out how to use a push button telephone let alone this freaking computer.



.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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For my first post on the forum I have a topic I am very familiar with. I served 20 years as an Aircraft Handler from 1961 - 1981 in all ranks up to Chief with half this time either posted to the flight deck or embarked squadrons.
Always great to hear some more firsthand ground truth (or sea truth). Welcome aboard!

As an aside I feel very proud to have served in the FAA when it was at its pinnacle during the '70's. Sure, Melbourne was an old ship that took a lot of hard work and long hours to keep going but we all loved her.
And we’d miss her dearly if we ever had to fight for something without overwhelming American force nearby.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
For my first post on the forum I have a topic I am very familiar with. I served 20 years as an Aircraft Handler from 1961 - 1981 in all ranks up to Chief with half this time either posted to the flight deck or embarked squadrons.

Welcome aboard mate. We must have served together on the old girl during the Indian Ocean cruise in 1980. (Too bad about the lost A4's). I was the CAG Taso and did a number of touch and goes in the jump seat of the Trackers with 816, very hairy stuff and I can distincly remember how close to the stbd wingtip those 4 x A4's looked.

Don't worry about not knowing stuff, I have learnt more about defence in the last 12 months than I ever imagined. Unfortunately, I've become addicted and need to get a life.
Cheers
Chris
 
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John Newman

The Bunker Group
What would the RAN look like if we started with a clean sheet of paper today?

The recent posts and discussions of the last few days has been very interesting, starting with ASSAIL saying that the “Navy was no bigger today than when he joined in 1968”, the list of ships in commission and reserve in 1968 that I put up after researching my “Warships of Australia” book and of course, Abe’s “conversion” of that 1968 list into what an equivalent fleet might look like today.

Its been a long time since I’ve looked at "Warships of Australia" in detail, so I started re-reading it. The chapter on “Birth of the Commonwealth Naval Forces” caught my attention.

All the discussions by the various parties, starting in 1900, which then evolved into the Fleet steaming into Sydney Harbour in October 1913 led by the Battlecruiser, HMAS Australia.

So I started to think, “What would the RAN look like if we started with a clean sheet of paper today?”

But first, below is a time line from that period (there is a hell of lot in the chapter, but I’ll try and summarise the main points):

  • Late in 1900 Commander R M Collins had prepared a memorandum stating that as Australia had no land frontiers her security must rest on naval defence.

  • June 1901, Rear Admiral Beaumont of the RN, replying to PM Barton’s request for his views, stated that there should be a force of 6 cruisers maintained by the RN and there should be no further development of Australian forces. Though “the future may see the creation of an Australian Navy”, the admiral felt that the new nation could safely rely on the power of the Royal Navy.

  • September 1901, Captain Creswell penned an “eloquent and highly-detailed” plea for the building of new warships to be manned by Australian seamen and the establishment of training schools. (various newspapers took up the cause). Creswell wrote further articles. Creswell also stated that the “present Squadron should be trebled in size”.

  • 1902, Minister for Defence Forrest, reaffirmed the Governments view that we should “place its reliance wholly upon the RN”, and that we should “get rid of the idea that we have different interests to the rest of the Empire”. (My comment: Just like a typical politician, pass the buck and save money too!)

  • July 1903 PM Barton spoke in Parliament on the “New Naval Agreement Bill”, Australia would contribute 200,000, NZ 40,000 (all figures in Pounds), the agreement with the RN was to last 10 years. Billy Hughes said it “would give the death blow to the budding aspirations for an Australian Navy”. Senator Matheson opposed the bill, saying “How the Admiralty officials must have laughed when Barton asked ‘for a packet of the cheapest efficient defence they had in stock!’ ”

  • May 1905, the Council of Defence reviewed the measures taken to date, found defences satisfactory in terms of land forces, but suggested harbour defences could be augmented by torpedo craft, destroyers, submarines and submersibles. Creswell was asked to comment on the report, he suggested nothing less than a “Five Year Plan” involving construction of a “cruiser-destroyer”, destroyers and torpedo craft. The fall of the Government postponed the discussion of his report.

  • June 1905, In reply to Vice Admiral Fanshawe’s memorandum on all matters of “hypothetical invasions” and the prohibitive costs to Australia and NZ and that we could still rely on the RN, Creswell claimed that the coastal force of “32 torpedo craft and similar vessels” he had proposed could indeed be an effective force and one which the Commonwealth could afford under his Five Year plan.

  • September 1905, Creswell reported on the “sad state” of the Commonwealths naval forces (referring to the former colonial ships), that for 15 years no new vessels had been purchased, “this service is practically on the verge of collapse” and the men were seeing the force “slowly dying under their eyes”.

  • October 1905, Creswell informed the Minister of Defence that we should have a navy of 19 destroyers and 15 torpedo boats, phase out some of the old Colonial ships and also he suggested that the idea of submarines should be dropped.

And around this time there had been the destruction of the Russian fleet by the more modern and powerful Japanese fleet, HMS Dreadnought had been launched in 1906 making other vessels obsolete, the launching of the first German Dreadnought in 1908, the start of the “Naval Race” between Britain and Germany, and of course, the visit to Australia by the American “Great White Fleet” in 1908, which helped to reignite the aspiration of Australia having a fleet of its own.

  • February 1909, Creswell made a final plea for our own Navy again, repeated his comments on the sad state of the Commonwealth forces (former Colonial vessels) he listed what ships were stationed in each port, Sydney for example had no local defence vessels at all!

  • One day after Creswell’s plea, the Government, under PM Fisher, ordered two “I” Class destroyers to be built in Britain and a third to be shipped out in pieces and erected here.

  • March 1909, with the growing strength of the German Navy, New Zealand made an offer to Britain to pay for a First-Class Battleship.

  • April 1909, NSW and Victoria pledged to provide a Dreadnought, on a share basis, if the Commonwealth did not!

  • Fisher suggested an “Imperial Conference” be held to discuss definite lines of co-operation for the naval defence of the Empire.

  • Before the conference could be held, Fisher lost office and Deakin took over as PM, Deakin then offered an Australian Dreadnought to the empire.

  • A plan was created to have a fleet consisting of, 1 Indomitable type armoured cruiser, 3 Bristol unarmoured cruisers, 6 destroyers, 3 submarines and the necessary auxiliaries, depot ship and stores ships.

  • Cost was put at (in pounds) 3,700,000 and annual maintenance costs of 600,000.

  • August 1909, after further meetings with the Admiralty the final composition of the fleet was produced, 1 Indefatigable class battlecruiser, 3 Bristol type cruisers, 6 “I” class destroyers, 3 “C” class submarines (later changed to 2 “E” class).

It took nearly 10 years, but in the end, we got an Australian Navy!

It was only just a little over a 100 years ago that all happened, not long in global terms, but almost half of the history of modern Australia. But back to today, 2012, 99 years after the fleet steamed into Sydney.

What would the RAN look like if we started with a clean sheet of paper today?

Yes of course there is how much money is available to be spent, regional and global threats, perceived or real, politics and political will too!

Would it look the same, similar, or totally different?

Cheers.


(PS, I hope you all enjoy this post as much as I had researching and putting it together, look forward to the debate!)
 
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Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The recent posts and discussions of the last few days has been very interesting, starting with ASSAIL saying that the “Navy was no bigger today than when he joined in 1968”, the list of ships in commission and reserve in 1968 that I put up after researching my “Warships of Australia” book and of course, Abe’s “conversion” of that 1968 list into what an equivalent fleet might look like today.

Its been a long time since I’ve looked at "Warships of Australia" in detail, so I started re-reading it. The chapter on “Birth of the Commonwealth Naval Forces” caught my attention.

All the discussions by the various parties, starting in 1900, which then evolved into the Fleet steaming into Sydney Harbour in October 1913 led by the Battlecruiser, HMAS Australia.

So I started to think, “What would the RAN look like if we started with a clean sheet of paper today?”

(PS, I hope you all enjoy this post as much as I had researching and putting it together, look forward to the debate!)
It’s a pretty out there suggestion. There was good reason the RAN was formed when it did because that was when Australia became an independent nation. And even before the fleet arrived in 1913 there were the colonial navies that were united in 1901 as the Commonwealth Naval Forces.

But it’s not entirely impossible. Both New Zealand and South Africa avoided forming proper Navies until WWII and Canada some 50 years after federation. To make this scenario possible Australia would have had to follow a similar approach of funding a Royal Navy presence in Australia (which we did before forming out own navy) and somehow not developing an independent force through WWII, Vietnam, East of Suez, etc up until 2011. This is pretty much pushing the boundaries of possibility.

In which case there would be an extensive Royal Navy presence in Australia (and presumably New Zealand) funded by the Australian (and NZ) government including ships purpose built for the task. The simple solution to forming an Australian Navy (which would probably be done jointly with NZ) would be to transfer these British ships to Australian control. This actually happened when the RAN was formed with a few cruisers being transferred in addition to the purpose built ships. So basically the Australian Navy formed in 2011 would just be a smaller version of the Royal Navy.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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Got a copy myself, had it since my late teens. As an aside I got to meet the NA Draftsman who did the line drawings in the book and bought a set of 1/96 scale plans for HMAS Vendetta from him. Stuffed if I can remember his name though.
Vic Cassells
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So basically the Australian Navy formed in 2011 would just be a smaller version of the Royal Navy.
Now that would be a scary proposition given the coalition's slash and burn since SDSR!

19 escorts (RN) is probably what we (RAN) should have if we are serious about sustaining a force of fat ships and East/West posture.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'v been reading this forum for a number of years now and finally a topic came up that I know a bit about. I'm afraid technology has overtaken me with regard to Navy in this age. Hell, I'm still trying to work out how to use a push button telephone let alone this freaking computer..
welcome aboard, I wouldn't worry about new tech, its the lessons learnt that are always important.

old dogs can learn new tricks - its the new dogs learning from the old ones thats always the issue /smiley on
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Now that would be a scary proposition given the coalition's slash and burn since SDSR!
The real question of this hypothetical is not what would the RAN look like if formed in 2011 but what would the RN look like from 1946 to 2010 being required to maintain an Australian Station funded by the CoA. Apart from facilities in Australia and recruiting from Australians (and Kiwis of course as they would be part of all this as well) the RN would probably use Australia as its base area for the Far East Fleet. So up until the financial crisis of the late 1960s that would probably mean a pair of fleet carriers based in Sydney forward deploying to Singapore and Hong Kong, which would also mean a larger RN FAA. If the CoA had a call to deploy elements of the RN into wars that the UK might not be involved in that would also mean a RN carrier at Yankee Station during the VietNam War.

The East of Suez cuts in 67 would still happen as the UK was then (as is now) in perilous financial situation but it certainly wouldn’t have the same name. The UK forces in the Middle East and Far East would still be withdrawn but since Australia Station actually subsidises the RN and they would be obligated to sustain it via treaty it couldn’t be withdrawn. What is interesting here is how this would affect the RN’s carrier force. The move from fleet carriers with Phantoms and Buccaneers to Harrier carriers would still probably happen but at a more gradual pace with at least four of the later required (including one for Australia Station).

The Thatcher Government inflicted the only deliberate policy related cuts on the RN of the post war era because they wanted to save money to spend on vote buying (aka ‘small government’) and to focus on fighting the Soviets which they saw (perhaps rightly) as being more of a business of nuclear submarines than Harrier carriers and amphibious forces. How would this effect the Australia Station?

It would no doubt complement evolving Australian attitudes at the time (Dibb and Defence of Australia) but not before the Falklands War. So could Thatcher have inflicted the 1981 cuts on the RN with an Australian Station in place? The need to get the Australians on side would take time and when the Falklands happens Thatcher has to turn 90 degrees and pretend she was never trying to slash the RN (could only slash the British shipbuilding industry instead). So the RN might be able to dodge this bullet.

Which leads up to the 21st century and the formation of an independent ANZ Navy. This could no doubt be dovetailed into the shrinking of the RN and the current British financial crisis. The ANZ Navy would be formed not from scratch but by splitting from the RN. Assuming the RN is maintained at about 1.5 times the size it is now (as it would be combined with RAN and RNZN personnel) the total fleet would be around (before any SDSR cuts) 50,000 sailors with 4 CV, 18 SS, 40 DD/FF, 6 LPD, 6 LSD, etc. How much of this the ANZ Navy gets would be the next question.

PS Of course how on earth Australia and the UK are even to get through WWII not to mention 65 years of differing international policy sharing a Navy is beyond me.
 

olde navy

New Member
Welcome aboard mate. We must have served together on the old girl during the Indian Ocean cruise in 1980. (Too bad about the lost A4's). I was the CAG Taso and did a number of touch and goes in the jump seat of the Trackers with 816, very hairy stuff and I can distincly remember how close to the stbd wingtip those 4 x A4's looked.

Don't worry about not knowing stuff, I have learnt more about defence in the last 12 months than I ever imagined. Unfortunately, I've become addicted and need to get a life.
Cheers
Chris
Many thanks for the warm welcome from you and Abe.

Didn't make the IO trip. The last time I was at sea was as Reg Chief on 816 for 2 years. We did the NZ trip but unfortunately our RIMPAC deployment was scrubbed as we were tasked with finding vietnamese boats between Darwin and Timor. So instead of the delights of Honolulu we had the exoctic delights of RAAF Darwin. Paid off from 723 as Reg Chief '81.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
US bid for multibillion-dollar nuclear aircraft carrier strike group in Perth

US carrier to be based out of Perth?

Interesting idea, but as mentioned in the story, highly unlikely. Perth also is "too far away". It also talks about other regional options that could be more viable. It also identifies the costs required to just build a suitable port for one. It also highlights the regional availability of carrier power.

Which then brings up the idea, if we want carrier capability, would we perhaps be better off securing our own carrier. Of which there is a very big range of options.

It also touches on issues with US design for subs, larger airbases for US bomber forces and US force direction within the region.
 
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