Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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swerve

Super Moderator
The Draken was a good plane but in its initial version would need modification to carry more than one drop tank to meet the RAAF’s ferry requirement. And would still be no match for the Grumman J79 Tiger. Still can’t understand why they never looked seriously at the Tiger. They could have contracted for this plane in 1957 and they could have replaced the Sabre on CAC ‘s production line from 1960. The RAAF could have had the first fully operational squadron with a Mach 2 fighter with radar and doppler nav by 1962. Conversion from Sabre to Tiger would be much easier and the aircraft maintained a much higher safety record in service through to the 1980s. Plus of course the CAC Tiger could be supplied to the RAN to replace the Sea Venom.
The great problem with the Super Tiger is that nobody else bought it. Australia would have been the launch customer for what was pretty much a new type, with no guarantee of any other customers. Any commonality with USN basic (J65 powered) Tigers went out of the window pretty quickly, with them being withdrawn from carriers in 1961, & from use as trainers in 1967. Australia could have faced the orphan F-111 problem on a much greater scale, after only a few years.

If Super Tiger had been bought by the Luftwaffe, then it would have been a safe buy.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The LCH are on there way out, 3 going in December this year.
They are supposed to be replaced with similar vessels at some point ... at least according to JP 2048.

I know the RAN claims that they are quite important and well used vessels, but I can't help but wonder how relevant they really are. Perhaps someone could enlighten me.

With Australia in the process of building a fairly impressive little amphib fleet I am not sure how a handful of small landing craft would add anything much to that capability.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
With Australia in the process of building a fairly impressive little amphib fleet I am not sure how a handful of small landing craft would add anything much to that capability.
They do all the small jobs that don't require a 10,000t LST or 15,000 LSD to accomplish.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The LCH are on there way out, 3 going in December this year.
They are supposed to be replaced with similar vessels at some point ... at least according to JP 2048.

I know the RAN claims that they are quite important and well used vessels, but I can't help but wonder how relevant they really are. Perhaps someone could enlighten me.

With Australia in the process of building a fairly impressive little amphib fleet I am not sure how a handful of small landing craft would add anything much to that capability.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Replacing Venom with Tiger would have been a massive leap forward for Navy. Checking weights and measures (Janes '60 - '61) there doesn't seem to be much difference between A4 and Tiger meaning they may have been able to operate from Melb without to much difficulty. We had no problems operating A4's so maybe Tigers could have been worth looking at back then. Nothing would have happened tho because at that time it was all British.
Australian built CAC Tigers would probably be available for the Navy around 1964-65 so would be like the acquisition of the A4D. By the 60s the Navy was obviously more than happy to take on-board American equipment. As suggested earlier by Volk that things would be different for the Navy is Sydney had gone through modernisation and the fighter force not supposed to be abolished in 1961 (as was the Government’s plan). But I very much doubt another fighter type would be brought into service for Sydney. Rather just the late production Sea Venoms would be brought which were still being delivered up until 1958 (from memory).

Many times up north Venoms were unable to fly due to nil wind conditions and the poor old ship couldn't go fast enough to manufacture enough wind over the deck. Maybe Tiger with a hugh power difference over Venom wouldn't have had this problem.
The F11F Tiger (Sapphire engine) pilot’s manual is online at Google books. It says that at 19,000 lbs it will fly at 123 knots. So minus the catapult’s velocity from that for required wind over the deck. The J79 Tiger would obviously have a much lower takeoff speed because it is lighter and has a lot more engine thrust.

The question that arises then is - what do we replace Tigers with?
The same thing we replaced the Skyhawks with… Ouch.

The great problem with the Super Tiger is that nobody else bought it. Australia would have been the launch customer for what was pretty much a new type, with no guarantee of any other customers. Any commonality with USN basic (J65 powered) Tigers went out of the window pretty quickly, with them being withdrawn from carriers in 1961, & from use as trainers in 1967. Australia could have faced the orphan F-111 problem on a much greater scale, after only a few years.
Not really. This is a case of judging the past by today’s standards.

First of all the Super Tiger was common with the un-super Tiger, or Sapphire Cougar, as it was originally known. It was quite simply just a re-engine. Most everything else was common, though production J79 Tigers would have had a few more differences. And the Tiger was a highly successful in service aircraft. It had the best maintenance record by far of any contemporary aircraft.

However the whole idea was to build them in Australia. In which case international commonality doesn’t matter. No one else made the Nene Vampire, Avon Sabre or the imperial measure Mirage IIIO but we had no problems operating them through their life because the source for all spares was local.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The great problem with the Super Tiger is that nobody else bought it. Australia would have been the launch customer for what was pretty much a new type, with no guarantee of any other customers. Any commonality with USN basic (J65 powered) Tigers went out of the window pretty quickly, with them being withdrawn from carriers in 1961, & from use as trainers in 1967. Australia could have faced the orphan F-111 problem on a much greater scale, after only a few years.

If Super Tiger had been bought by the Luftwaffe, then it would have been a safe buy.
I have to agree, however Australia did have a tendency to go it alone on modifying gear, just look at the Avon Sabre and some of the things that were looked at for the Mirage (Avon RA14 and Ferranti Airpass Radar).

The Super Tiger was an interesting option as there would have been no shortage of support for the J-79 or likely for its US sourced avionics. As this is a hypothetical it could be reasoned that a joint RAAF/RAN/RNZAF buy/build could have supplied the critical mass to make the project viable, or that with Australia being the first customer it could have helped it over the line in Switzerland and other markets (although Lockheed would probably still bribe their way to more sales).

Assuming the Super Tiger was adopted by the RAAF and RAN FAA the logical follow on would have been to, IAW RAAF advice, select the J-79 powered A-5 Vigilante to replace the Canberra. This in turn would have made the acquisition of F-4 Phantoms to supplement the Tigers more likely in the late 60s early 70s.

I suspect this could have progressed with less delay and few issues (not to mention aircraft losses) to deliver greater capability at lower cost than occured in reallity.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It's a pity that Australia didn't buy it, since as you say, it might have been the trigger for others to follow suit. I can imagine old cat & trap carriers being much more attractive, & more of them being kept in service, if the Super Tiger had been available to put on them.
 
US carrier to be based out of Perth?

Interesting idea, but as mentioned in the story, highly unlikely. Perth also is "too far away". It also talks about other regional options that could be more viable. It also identifies the costs required to just build a suitable port for one. It also highlights the regional availability of carrier power.

Which then brings up the idea, if we want carrier capability, would we perhaps be better off securing our own carrier. Of which there is a very big range of options.

It also touches on issues with US design for subs, larger airbases for US bomber forces and US force direction within the region.
I like how the CSIS report uses HMAS Stirling "for evaluation purposes" as an example location for discussing the option of forward basing a CSG to the Western Pacific or SEA, probably thinking that the Australian media would see it and not jump on the discussion to churn controversy into a story. They probably chose Stirling as the least controversial "example" to use instead of Korea, Vietnam, Philippines, Singapore, etc.
In the end they didn't even go on to put the forward-basing of a CSG Option into their Recommendations. The report wasn't as hawkish as I might have thought.

The Stirling/CSG is a bit of an odd Action to include as the others in Option 3: Increased Posture are fairly uncontroversial, which are largely increasing units/unit strengths or rotating units to places where US forces are already based. Where this isn't the case, the Action would be largely welcome such as the basing of 2 LCS in Korea or ABM units to Japan or Korea, or internal US Forces organisational changes and unit transfers to US territories such as Guam and Hawaii.

The increased ISR presence (they talk about the Global Hawk) in Australia could be fairly easily explained away, especially if the ADF also operates the Global Hawk.
Any upgrading of airfields to handle dispersed bombers or tankers could be explained away if they aren't permanently stationed here, and pre-positioning of stores is fairly unobtrusive if it is part of a "ADF-US joint storage facility".
Perhaps the plan is to talk about CSGs now so the lesser accommodations of SSNs and stores/unit dispersal sites are more palatable.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They are supposed to be replaced with similar vessels at some point ... at least according to JP 2048.

I know the RAN claims that they are quite important and well used vessels, but I can't help but wonder how relevant they really are. Perhaps someone could enlighten me.

With Australia in the process of building a fairly impressive little amphib fleet I am not sure how a handful of small landing craft would add anything much to that capability.
At the moment not much. Currently being used as a training platform for comp log progression. Its around the Pacific Islands they become vital.

When the US conducts "pacific partnership" one or two LCH assist as the big USNS Comfort, USNS Mercy or a USN Amphib Provide medical assistance and community construction projects, they rely on a LCH to gain access to areas that these vessels would be unable to access. They also allow more loads to be transferred from the LHD and Choules, as a LCM is just that, Landing Craft Medium. The replacement of the current LCH is well beyond due, and extremly vital to our future Amphib fleet
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
She has been loaded.

Cardimp, one fellow from the "Foro de la Armada Española" has posted this pic

http://s3.subirimagenes.com:81/fondosycapturas/78951934151.jpg

The Blue Marlin hasn't been refloated yet. Now a couple more days to secure the Canberra and off to Oz
Excellent news!.....Lets just keep our fingers and toes crossed she does not fall off the back when Blue Marlin is re floated. I still have hard time accepting that she can fit at all

Unfortunately your link appears to be broken :(
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ThePuss;249697[QUOTE said:
]Excellent news!.....Lets just keep our fingers and toes crossed she does not fall off the back when Blue Marlin is re floated.
More importantly, keep your fingers toes and everything else crossed that BAE Williamstown will complete the job in a timely manner and not cock it up. They should take scheduling lessons from Navantia.
Or is it that.....in a country with 40% unemployment the workforce do what they are paid to do and not act like industrial relations saboteurs!
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
More importantly, keep your fingers toes and everything else crossed that BAE Williamstown will complete the job in a timely manner and not cock it up. They should take scheduling lessons from Navantia.
Or is it that.....in a country with 40% unemployment the workforce do what they are paid to do and not act like industrial relations saboteurs!
Im sorry but its 2012 mate, not 1975 when admittedly Dogstown was run by the Unions.

When has there been a strike since it has been a BAE/TENIX/TRANSFIELD Yard? (maybe in the early days of privatisation, but none in the last 20 years that I can think of).

If the management can't organise a piss up at a berwery, please dont blame the workers for non existant industrial action.
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I have found an in depth power point showing how Dockwise are going to load Canberra. Highly Recommended [ame="http://www.scribd.com/doc/98110610/Loadign-cargando-ALHD-Canberra"]Loadign/cargando ALHD Canberra[/ame]

amazing what Google can trawl up! :type
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Im sorry but its 2012 mate, not 1975 when admittedly Dogstown was run by the Unions.

When has there been a strike since it has been a BAE/TENIX/TRANSFIELD Yard? (maybe in the early days of privatisation, but none in the last 20 years that I can think of).

If the management can't organise a piss up at a berwery, please dont blame the workers for non existant industrial action.
Well there was a strike at ASC on friday, the unions didn't think that a pay offer of 6,5 and 4.5% over the next three years was good enough and are demanding 10, 10 and 10%. I have been told that one of the driving issues behind the action was that they found out the non EBA staff, the guys who don't get penalty rates, RDOs etc were given in between 3 and 4% instead of having to wait for the unions to take their share and be happy with the 1.5% left over.

On BAE they should do ok on the LHD as I have been told that they have replaced most of the remaining senior people at Williams town with competent guys from the UK. There is also the fact that they have had the ferked up AWD blocks to practice and upskill on. Most of there recent issues can be traced to incompetent management (all gone now), an inexperienced work force, (now trained on AWD work) and outdated substandard facilities (updated by and for the AWD project).
 
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rand0m

Member
Can someone confirm the approx date it should be arriving here in Melbourne? Is the superstructure/bridge etc being built in Melbourne or Spain?
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
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Can someone confirm the approx date it should be arriving here in Melbourne? Is the superstructure/bridge etc being built in Melbourne or Spain?
I don't know when she will arrive but it wont be very long. The superstructure will built in Melbourne and the C4 installation and integration will occur there too.

Its a big bugger of a thing too, weighing around the same as an ANZAC apparently.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
I don't know when she will arrive but it wont be very long. The superstructure will built in Melbourne and the C4 installation and integration will occur there too.

Its a big bugger of a thing too, weighing around the same as an ANZAC apparently.
45 days of travel between La Coruna and Melbourne, the 'Canberra' come to Australia in early October.

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