Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

MrConservative

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The Anzac replacement has a "pencilled in" timeframe circa 2027/28 Te Kaha and 2029/2030 Te Mana. Basically 30 years each of planned service. The P3K2 was mooted for replacement circa 2025/26 - though I have a feeling that the P-3K2's may be around a little longer due to its delay in entering service. Pushed out until the ANZAC are paid off so as to give "full value". That is a personal opinion only. Thus there will likely be a fiscal acquisition hump at the end of that decade. That said, long term acquisition planning and project management should sort this.

Nevertheless, it will be important that whatever rotary asset that goes with the future ANZAC and the possibly the OCV (SEA 1180) is fully worked through (As the OCV may well be part of the OPV and IPV replacement package as it will be with the RAN) - and there is substantial thinking that needs to be done around that - for example the synergies and divergence of required platfrom capabilities per the ANZAC II's - and our other vessels that are not focused on ASuW/ASW missions but other tasking profiles).

The SEA 5000 project does not really hit its straps and until later this decade 2018 iirc and the Romeo is going to be integral in that platforms functuality and it would make total sense that when we are moving over into our own ANZAC replacement we also operating Romeo's. In the mean time it seems likely that the Sprites will be with us for some time to come - in possibly 15+ years of service would be realistic and fit right into the ANZAC replacement timeframe. This gives us a decade long window to manage the introduction of likely Romeo's on to our future ANZAC decks and in my view (personal opinion again based on meeting JATF / current policy goals and that the DWP/10 was too intellectually lazy to put its balls to the wall and discern anything beyond the rhetorical) the Seirra for the OCV's and Canterbury replacement. (As well as the other assets such as the by then in service LWSV and future Tanker.) It also gives us some wriggle room and likely crossover just like the NH-90 introduction is crossing over with the Iroquios.
 

ngatimozart

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There has been quite a discussion on the NZDF thread about Endeavour and Canterbury replacement. These can be found here: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/geo-strategic-defense/nzdf-general-discussion-thread-6137-166/ and http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/geo-strategic-defense/nzdf-general-discussion-thread-6137-167/ I have included the following because it has data about the Patino and Endeavour

I know that we have discussed the Endeavour replacement before and that its probably been given a good thrashing, however I was having a nosey on the RAN thread, and there is a rumour there that the RAN has asked to lease the Spanish Armanda Navantia built AOR Cantabria A15, with Spanish crew, to give it a going over to see what it's good and bad points are. If this is the case in that said ship does arrive in Australia for RAN assessment, IMHO it would make good sense to have a NZMinDef / RNZN assessment team present at the same time to do an assesment for the NZG / RNZN.

Before every one say it's to big for RNZN, the Cantabria (good name too - should paint it red and black :D) is not first of class and is an upscaled Patino.

The Patino's key data is:
Crew 148
Aircrew Accommodation 19
Additional Accommodation 20
Length 170m
Beam 23m
Height 8m
Displacement 5,780t
Engines
The ship is fitted with two Navantia / Burmeister and Wein 16V40/45 diesel engines rated at 17.6MW sustained power. The engines drive a single shaft with a five-blade controllable pitch propeller supplied by Lips BV of the Netherlands.
Patino Class Auxiliary Oiler and Replenishment Ship - Naval Technology

Displacement: 17,050 tons full load
Dimensions: 175 x 23.7 x 8 meters (574 x 77.5 x 26 feet)
Propulsion: 2 diesels, 2 shafts, 21 knots
Crew: 162 + 19 transients
Aviation: aft helicopter deck with hangar for 2 helicopters
Cargo: 9,000 tons (6,800 DFM, 1,650 JP-5, parts, ordnance & food)
Radar: combined air & sea search
EW: intercept, 4 SRBOC
Armament: 1 20 mm Meroka CIWS, 2 20 mm
AOR-type ship designed in cooperation with Netherlands.
World Navies Today: Spain

Endeavours specs:
Standard Displacement: 7,300 tonnes empty
12,300 tonnes laden
Length Overall: 138 metres
Beam: 18.4 metres
Draught: 4.5m empty
7.6m laden
Speed: 14 knots
Range: 10,000 nautical miles
Complement: 50 Officers and ratings
(13 Officers, 10 Senior Ratings, 27 Junior Ratings)
Propulsion: One Mann Burmeister & Wain diesel (5,300 hp)
RNZN - Endeavour
A press release today from the Australian Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel "that the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) would participate in a unique deployment to Australia of the Spanish Armada Ship, SPS Cantabria, with a series of training exercises in Australia from mid-February until November 2013."

Full text
Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel – Joint Media Release – The Deployment of Spanish Armada Ship Cantabria to Australia in 2013
30 June 2012

The Minister for Defence, Stephen Smith, today announced that the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) would participate in a unique deployment to Australia of the Spanish Armada Ship, SPS Cantabria, with a series of training exercises in Australia from mid-February until November 2013.

The Cantabria deployment will strengthen the bilateral relationship between Spain and Australia, as well as providing important training and capability assessment outcomes for both the Spanish Armada and the RAN.

The Cantabria is a modern Auxiliary Oil Replenishment ship, similar to HMAS Success, which is capable of supplying fuel, food, stores and ammunition to ships underway.

This will be the longest deployment undertaken by Cantabria and will allow the Spanish Armada to trial the ship’s full range of capabilities including through activities involving both Cantabria and RAN ships and helicopters.

This training program will also include an exchange program between personnel from Cantabria and RAN units.

These exercises with RAN Ships and helicopters will culminate with Cantabria’s participation in the Australian International Fleet Review in October 2013.

The Cantabria’s deployment will also provide a valuable opportunity for the RAN to conduct early training for personnel earmarked for service in the Australian Navy’s new Canberra Class Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) ships and Hobart Class Air Warfare Destroyers (AWD).

Many of Cantabria’s systems are the same as the LHDs and AWDs, which are based on Spanish ship designs.

The deployment will provide a unique opportunity for Defence to undertake an assessment of the capability offered by Cantabria as Defence considers the replacement of HMAS Success and Sirius.

The deployment of Cantabria will also reduce the capability risk during Success’ next major maintenance period in 2013.

Cantabria will augment the afloat support capability provided by HMAS Sirius. Sirius is currently in maintenance at HMAS Stirling, which is due for completion next month.

The RAN and Spanish Armada will work together over the coming weeks to finalise the details of the deployment.

The Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Ray Griggs, will travel to Ferrol, Spain, next week to represent Australia at the launching and naming of the second LHD, the future HMAS Adelaide.

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel
IMHO it would, as I have suggested in previous post (not quoted in full), be very advantageous for the NZDF & RNZN to take advantage of this situation and do an assessment of the Cantabria with a view of looking at the smaller Patino class.
 
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Kiwigov

Member
Size of RNZN LPD/Tanker

In all of this I may be detecting a note of envy as to the larger and more capable kit fielded by NATO nations (well, maybe not so much in Spain's case in future) and our nearest and dearest neighbour. I think it's worth keeping in mind the particular niche the RNZN has identified for these sort of ships - specifically, serving the needs of small Pacific states, which have limited port facilities and shallow/confined harbours.

For example, I recall reading in the 'Navy Today' a while back that HMNZS Canterbury was the only significant naval vessel able to enter and berth at Dili in East Timor. So that likely ongoing need must constrain the size of ship which can reasonably be used to serve as an LPD, not to mention the financial constraints the RNZN faces (along with the whole NZ Government for the forseeable decade).

Then there's the whole manning issue - especially of those scarce marine engineers not otherwise engaged in FIFO in WA - which must reinforce a requirement to go for a smaller ship which makes maximum use of automation and UMS.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
In all of this I may be detecting a note of envy as to the larger and more capable kit fielded by NATO nations (well, maybe not so much in Spain's case in future) and our nearest and dearest neighbour. I think it's worth keeping in mind the particular niche the RNZN has identified for these sort of ships - specifically, serving the needs of small Pacific states, which have limited port facilities and shallow/confined harbours.

For example, I recall reading in the 'Navy Today' a while back that HMNZS Canterbury was the only significant naval vessel able to enter and berth at Dili in East Timor. So that likely ongoing need must constrain the size of ship which can reasonably be used to serve as an LPD, not to mention the financial constraints the RNZN faces (along with the whole NZ Government for the forseeable decade).

Then there's the whole manning issue - especially of those scarce marine engineers not otherwise engaged in FIFO in WA - which must reinforce a requirement to go for a smaller ship which makes maximum use of automation and UMS.
I don't think most of the posters here suffer from envy as you call it. Many of them do detailed homework on policy requirements, strategic outlooks, platform capabilities and provide in my view objective critiques on what NZ's military capabilities should be.

It is not so much length at Dili as it could handle a 200m+ vessel. What the problem is - is the draft limit (9m >) and the lack of bulk storage infrastructure and one small RoRo ramp. A problem frequent in our general Paciifc AOI and one which a 131m 9000t vessel like the CY can not readily or always solve. You wont get such information in Navy Today as it is the Navy's PR blurb sheet.

Canterbury being a RoRo ferry has real limitations in the prescribed Pacific role you outline as it lacks a dock - meaning it essentially requires port facilties as its LC's have strict op margins per Sea States and weight limits. (Note it is not the Navy who sets capability specs and policy it is the MinDef). Also it is a tad undersized in its ability to sealift a fully equiped LTG of Company Group size that can independently sustain itself for 30 days.

A number of the newer small-medium LHD designs such as the Endurance 160 though 30m longer than the CY have similiar drafts, and have a substantially larger and more flexible flight deck and of course a Dock for an across the shore capability which is more favorable if deploying amongst the many atolls and undeveloped harbour infrastructures throughout our wider region. Dili or any other harbour that the CY can handle - the Endurance 160 (or similar types) could handle. What a well dock vessel can do better is get logistics from ship to shore more effectively.

With respect to size and manning of future vessels I tend to agree. Anything greater than 15000 tonnes would be a struggle per op cost, per acquisition cost, per manning requirements. Nevertheless having smaller vessels would likewise require greater numbers - so as to do the tasks required. This will also be a struggle for the very same reasons - thus the law of marginal utility would equally apply. Yes, marine engineers are always thin on the ground in NZ - however in the future having two vessels replaced with two slightly larger more automated vessels wont have any dramatic effect on current or future manning requirements.

The replacement for the Endeavour will have a primary role as a fleet supply and replenishment vessel supporting the Anzacs as well as other partner nations. Its secondary role as a supplementary sealift capability will be relatively modest in comparison to the CY and its replacement. As long as its replacement can get to where CY does now (e.g Dili et al) and in the future CY's replacement does improve on its design and operational limitations, we will be able to deliver a more efficent and effective capability. That is what interests the majority of posters not envy.
 

ngatimozart

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Regarding the ANZAC upgrade. Someone else at another place I lurk in has queried whether or not it would be cheaper for the RNZN to upgrade the ANZACs to the RAMS new configuration rather than doing a more limited upgrade as planned. He suggests that if the RNZN went to the RAN configuration, there would be no intergration or design risks, very low production risk, the ships combat relevance would be extended and the RNZN would become users of and therefore become experienced in phased array radar technology. Would this be the case, or would it be seen as to expensive and politically unacceptable by the pollies?
 
Regarding the ANZAC upgrade. Someone else at another place I lurk in has queried whether or not it would be cheaper for the RNZN to upgrade the ANZACs to the RAMS new configuration rather than doing a more limited upgrade as planned. He suggests that if the RNZN went to the RAN configuration, there would be no intergration or design risks, very low production risk, the ships combat relevance would be extended and the RNZN would become users of and therefore become experienced in phased array radar technology. Would this be the case, or would it be seen as to expensive and politically unacceptable by the pollies?
What combat upgrades have the NZ Anzacs already had? If the money is there, an upgrade to ESSM should be done first.
The ASMD upgrade works out to be about A$70m per ship. It would be more if the NZ Anzacs haven't been upgraded already with ESSM and the associated combat system upgrade. Further, the ASMD upgrade doesn't replace the SPS-49 search radar. This is supposedly going to happen at a later upgrade (maybe).

Is it worth it?
Well, is A$150m odd worth getting experience with phased array radars? I would argue it isn't.
Do you see the government operating an Anzac in a combat environment such as the Gulf where ASMs could be fired? If yes, then an un-upgraded Anzac will be vulnerable and need escorting by coalition vessels. If no, then why bother?
 

ngatimozart

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Eventually we'll have to replace the two ANZAC Frigates, Te Kaha & Te Mana. At the moment the planned replacement period is around 2025 - 30. Also we will be looking at replacing the the two OPVs, Wellington and Otago. All things being equal it would be presumed that we would participate as partners with the RAN in the replacement programs. The RAN ANZAC replacement program is the ADF SEA 5000 Next Generation Combatant (NGC), not ANZAC II as commonly stated by some, myself included.

From the ADF SEA 5000:
The 2009 White Paper stated that a Fleet of eight new Future Frigates, which will be larger than the ANZAC Class, designed and equipped with a strong emphasis on anti-submarine warfare (ASW), will be acquired. Incorporation of a land attack cruise missile (LACM) capability will be integral to the design and construction of the Future Frigate as stated in the 2009 White Paper.
Defence Capability Plan 2009 - Public Version - December 2010 Update
In RAN Thread
There is no such thing as the “Anzac II” but there is the SEA 5000 Next Generation Combatant (NGC). This ship will be built around the AUSPAR radar, strike length VLS and large hangar/mission bays. AUSPAR will be comparable to SPY-1 in range but being an AESA would be far more flexible. They could even be fitted with the AEGIS combat system to run AUSPAR. I would expect the NGC to probably be bigger than the AWD.
This is capability far above what the RNZN have now but in the future I would think one that they would probably need to remain current and to be able to operate effectively with the RAN, USN and the Japanese Navy, Indian Navy, and the Navies of the FPDA. It is a while in the future so the RNZN & NZG know the expenditure they are looking at and should be able to plan for it.

On the OPV front the RAN are looking at OCVs at around the 2000 tonne mark. There is some conjecture about the hull type and material (steel vs aluminium), and how much multi-roling they intend to fit into the hull. But it is intended to cover what our OPVs do (but not Antarctica - so not ice strenthened) plus MCM, Hydrographic etc., so it is the full Littoral Warfare vessel.

From ADF SEA 1180:
The Government has directed that Defence develop proposals to rationalise the Navy’s patrol boat, mine countermeasures, hydrographic and oceanographic forces, potentially into a single modular multi-role class or family of around 20 Offshore Combatant Vessels (OCV) combining four existing classes of vessels. The new vessels will likely be larger than the current Armidale Class patrol boats.

The concept relies on the use of modular unmanned underwater systems for both mine countermeasures and hydrographic tasks capable of being deployed independently to any operational area, or loaded onto any of the OCVs or vessels of opportunity. In addition, the OCV and its systems will be able to undertake offshore and littoral warfighting roles, border protection tasks, long-range counter-terrorism and counter-piracy operations, support to Special Forces, and missions in support of security and stability in the immediate neighbourhood. The feasibility of these new ships to embark a helicopter or UAV will also be determined during project development.
Defence Capability Plan 2009 - Public Version - December 2010 Update
Again the timetable for this program is about the time our to OPVs need to be replaced. So I would suggest that the RNZN would have or should have a goodly amount of input on both projects. My own opinion is that three ANZAC FFH replacements are required and that four or even five OCV be procured especially if they are steel hulled, ice strengthened and around the 2000 tonne size. That means we can project often more into the Southern Ocean and South Pacific and at the same time have a strong littoral warfare component.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Eventually we'll have to replace the two ANZAC Frigates, Te Kaha & Te Mana. At the moment the planned replacement period is around 2025 - 30.
But what in your opinion would be the better deal for NZ, joining the Australian Next Gerneration Combatiant program or buy something like Type 26 or similar. If NZ joined the NGC program would we get workshare like with the ANZAC's?
 

ngatimozart

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But what in your opinion would be the better deal for NZ, joining the Australian Next Gerneration Combatiant program or buy something like Type 26 or similar. If NZ joined the NGC program would we get workshare like with the ANZAC's?
There should be no reason why we couldn't. We proved our capabilities in the ANZAC build but since then I wonder how many of those capabilities remain. If the NZG had any brains it would negotiate a work share or similar. We do have industries and capabilities here that could fit into the build program. Buying a Type 26 or similar European vessel would, I think, create sustainment issues because of the distance. However by participating in the RAN NGC program we won't face those sustainment issues because we will have that commonality of vessel type and class.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
The Tenix yard in Whangarei closed in 2008 after the final IPV was completed, so in terms of shipbuilding facilities we really don't have a lot to bring to the table; although we could build the Aussie PM a nice yacht in return for a NGC.
 

Lucasnz

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The Tenix yard in Whangarei closed in 2008 after the final IPV was completed, so in terms of shipbuilding facilities we really don't have a lot to bring to the table; although we could build the Aussie PM a nice yacht in return for a NGC.
There are still a couple of shipyards that could contribute to any future project, plus it doesn't have to be shipbuilding per say - contributions could come from other subcontractors (Switchboards / Air conditioning come to mind for some reason).

There was a view floating around the lower deck in the as I was leaving the Regulars that NZ could have acquired the ANZAC cheaper from BV in Germany than through Australia. While the political drivers and economic benefit returned to NZ will be vital in determining the ANZAC replacement if NZ can acquire better value for money elsewhere then we would be mad not to take it and that includes the T26.

However I think whats lacking in the discussion is what exactly are the capabilities the RNZN will require in an ANZAC replacement, given the significant increase in capability the T26, MEKO D etc have over the ANZAC combined with the requirements of the Ampib Task Force concept (if it survives).
 

aussienscale

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There are still a couple of shipyards that could contribute to any future project, plus it doesn't have to be shipbuilding per say - contributions could come from other subcontractors (Switchboards / Air conditioning come to mind for some reason).
Definately plenty NZ could offer in a future build, you don't need an entire shipyard to supply block segments for the construction, and as you mentioned plenty of other gear as well. I think there would have to be local content build in the project for the Government to tie in with the program.

As mentioned earlier by Ngati, the OPV could be another potential, I think if the NZG was potentially serious about the project, they could actually influence the decision between Steel or Aluminium hulls, just a simple matter of making the NZ hulls with the strengthened hull, but it gets ugly if the Aluminium hull is the way the Aus Gov goes, it would be totally un-suitable for NZ requirements, let alone un-suitable for Aus requirements anyway, but that never stopped them from going that for the patrol boats

Cheers
 

MrConservative

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Staff member
The RAN ANZAC replacement program is the ADF SEA 5000 Next Generation Combatant (NGC), not ANZAC II as commonly stated by some, myself included.
Far prefer the vernacular nickname ANZAC II rather than the obtuse and extraneous official title. Can't be stuffed writing SEA 5000 Next Generation Combatant for the next decade when a simple well understood phrase Anzac II suffices. If we really want to get pedantic - the NZDF has no name signed off by cabinet for the future Anzac replacement project so as far as replacing Te Mana and Te Kaha. For the RAN replacements by all means use SEA 5000 Next Generation Combatant, but technically the RNZN replacement project is undefined so ANZAC II is as good as anything with reference to this side of the ditch.
 

Volkodav

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Far prefer the vernacular nickname ANZAC II rather than the obtuse and extraneous official title. Can't be stuffed writing SEA 5000 Next Generation Combatant for the next decade when a simple well understood phrase Anzac II suffices. If we really want to get pedantic - the NZDF has no name signed off by cabinet for the future Anzac replacement project so as far as replacing Te Mana and Te Kaha. For the RAN replacements by all means use SEA 5000 Next Generation Combatant, but technically the RNZN replacement project is undefined so ANZAC II is as good as anything with reference to this side of the ditch.
Could I suggest ANZAC(R), assuming there will actually be a replacement.

I am not just referring to NZ here but the Australian pattern of reducing the size of the fleet each generation. We are currently planning to replace the ANZACs one for one with a GP frigate with an ASW slant, I would not be surprised however if this project ends up being superseded by reduced numbers of improved OCVs and eventually supplemented by what is in reality a FFG replacement. There will undoubtedly be a decade or so of flip flopping with each political major trying to pretend they are doing the best they can to repair the irreparable damage their predecessors did to defence etc etc but at the end of the day we will see fewer ships and our polies will tell us this is good or bad depending on whether they signed off the project or not.
 

StingrayOZ

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ANZAC II implies a sort of a repeat of the entire program of ANZAC, with Aus and NZ working together on a united build. Which I think would be nice to see, but I have doubts if it will occur.

Aus and NZ seem to be heading in different directions. Sea5000 originally seemed to have bold aims in the original Rudd whitepaper. That may have been tempered a bit, but may still but well above what the RNZN or NZG wants.

But buying something smaller and cheaper may end up being a false economy if your an orphaned customer, and you can't latch on to RAN upgrades, developments or training/intergration/logistics etc.
 

Volkodav

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ANZAC II implies a sort of a repeat of the entire program of ANZAC, with Aus and NZ working together on a united build. Which I think would be nice to see, but I have doubts if it will occur.

Aus and NZ seem to be heading in different directions. Sea5000 originally seemed to have bold aims in the original Rudd whitepaper. That may have been tempered a bit, but may still but well above what the RNZN or NZG wants.

But buying something smaller and cheaper may end up being a false economy if your an orphaned customer, and you can't latch on to RAN upgrades, developments or training/intergration/logistics etc.
Well to be honest NZ has done a better job in upgrading the ANZAC platform (vs combat system) than Aust has, i.e. upgrades to propulsion diesels, IPMS and stability. ASMD gives the RAN more bang but yet again the actual platform has missed out and will likely be run into the ground and be in desperate need of replacement before the replacement is ready.
 
, the OPV could be another potential, I think if the NZG was potentially serious about the project, they could actually influence the decision between Steel or Aluminium hulls, just a simple matter of making the NZ hulls with the strengthened hull, but it gets ugly if the Aluminium hull is the way the Aus Gov goes, it would be totally un-suitable for NZ requirements, let alone un-suitable for Aus requirements anyway, but that never stopped them from going that for the patrol boats

Cheers
I'm still surprised this type of comment comes up about aluminium hulls. Simply the design for the ACPB was for sea state 4, as stipulated by DMO to Austal. So when they take them up to sea state 7, run them back to back with only break fixes you can't complain about hull issues.

It's all just a bit of banter that just pollutes the argument about what the RAN needs for 1180.

On another topic, where is the Kiwi Self Defence Upgrade at? I haven't heard much about it for a while.
 

Volkodav

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I'm still surprised this type of comment comes up about aluminium hulls. Simply the design for the ACPB was for sea state 4, as stipulated by DMO to Austal. So when they take them up to sea state 7, run them back to back with only break fixes you can't complain about hull issues.

It's all just a bit of banter that just pollutes the argument about what the RAN needs for 1180.

On another topic, where is the Kiwi Self Defence Upgrade at? I haven't heard much about it for a while.
NZ warships and patrol vessels, even more so than the RAN, need to be able to operate in high sea states and very cold water. This not only rules out the use of aluminium for the hull but also some common grades of steel. It would be a waste of time and money to build a class of OPV/OCV or what ever out of materials that are known to be unsuitable for the environments in which the the ships will be operating. No matter how sexy Austals trimarans appear its not looks that count rather capability, durability, reliability and affordability that should be given top billing in selection of an appropriate design.
 
I wasn't commenting on the requirements for the RNZN with aluminium only the RAN for patrol boats up north. The RAN halved an ANZAC's shelf life by trying to go down to heard island so the thoughts of taking alminimum boats that far south is quite stupid.

I was just surprised that there is still such anti aluminium comments coming out after all the research that has been done.
 

aussienscale

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I wasn't commenting on the requirements for the RNZN with aluminium only the RAN for patrol boats up north. The RAN halved an ANZAC's shelf life by trying to go down to heard island so the thoughts of taking alminimum boats that far south is quite stupid.

I was just surprised that there is still such anti aluminium comments coming out after all the research that has been done.
And therein lies the problem, continually downgrading the requirements from those initially set out/required to what you actually end up with. Nothing wrong with alluminium when used in the right environment and for the intended use, but as you said when as typically happens they get used in this manner it is un-suitable, but unfortunately we never seem to learn :)

The OPV's should be steel hull, we know how much they will get flogged and continual creep out of the original intended use will see them shagged in a pretty short time
 
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