Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StevoJH]

I like the suggestion earlier in the thread, NSW government builds Navy a new site at Jervis Bay. They can pay for it out of cruise ship revenue. I can't believe Gillard is out there doing favours for a Liberal state government?

Thats the thing, I very much doubt the NSW government would ever make enough additional revenue out of cruise ship arrivals in Sydney Harbour in order to subsidise the development of a supplementary or replacement base for FBE.

Cockatoo Island is probably the closest thing available to a ready made base, but it sounds like even that is a no go.

 

[Sea Toby]

hell disney cruises were that desperate not to boat people ashore, they bought an island then built a dedicated pier...in the middle of nowhere

They most amusing part about this is that the cruise liners dont want to have to go to anchor and then boat people ashore, which is there main complaint as they have had to. Yet this is not a problem when they sail from sydney through the pacific islands. If they really were desperate, they would sail from newcastle or botany bay rather then sydney harbour. yes it is wonderful, and yes you can add $500 to the ticket for doing it, but why do we jump when they tell us to?

You are right. The cruise lines don't even like to tender at their own private island. In some locations there is no choice alike Cancun and Belize because of the shallow waters. But I will say its a dime to a dollar to fund a new cruise ship terminal than fund a new naval base. Even that may be a high figure, I might be better off saying a penny to a dollar.

It won't take a year to build a new berth for the huge cruise ships. Even tiny Bermuda added another pier. Robbing the navy of its base berths is the WRONG decision. Notice Seattle built new berths and moved the cruise ships from their overcrowded container ship berths. Miami has rebuilt a few of their terminals to handle the much larger huge cruise ships. While I am not fully aware about Sydney's geography, surely there is a location where a new terminal for the huge cruise ships can be built. May have to demolish a few buildings but that would be better than robbing the navy of its berths.

 

[Tee_Centre_10]

Problem: Sydney Harbour Bridge is too low.
Solution: Demolish bridge and replace with more tunnels.
I'm available for more problem-solving consultations at reasonable rates.

Obviously the cruise ship access is a government policy decision that Navy has little control over.
However Navy does have some operational control over the situation. Make using Garden Island unpalatable. Pass on every single fee/cost associated with letting cruise ships use Garden Island.
The cruise lines would be charged mooring fees, right? Make them high. This is Sydney Harbour we're talking about, not Port Kembla. Charge them rental rates.
Utilities? Charge a fortune. "That's mountain spring water and 100% green energy you're sucking down, captain".
Passenger access? "Well, sir/madam, this is an active military base and as such there is a requirement that in the absence of background checks all persons must be patted down, screened, interviewed, psychologically assessed and full cavity searches for passengers exhibiting suspicious behaviour. If you co-operate fully we can have you visiting beautiful Sydney and hugging koalas in just over 90 minutes. 120 minutes maximum".
Vehicle access? Sniffer dogs, load searches, driver background checks. "For safety reasons, this truck needs a roadworthy check. It's a liability issue. Lawyers, huh?"
Naval dockyard activities?

• "Sorry, sorry. Coming through with this big crane and truckloads of gear. Sorry to be such a pain!"
• "Oh, those noisy dockyard activities? Complete coincidence that we are carrying them out next to your holiday-makers. We're not annoying them are we?"
• "The contractor keeps promising he'll be by to pick up that skip of rotting vegetable waste by the gangway. Would you like me to ring him again? Would you care to purchase some pine scented deodorant at cost?"
• "We always test horns, sirens and alarms at 3am. It is a military habit to do things when they are least expected".
• <Woppa-woppa-woppa>"The helicopter has just come out of maintenance and we need to re-certify that is can still physically fit on the ship. What did you say? Oh, I know it seems like it is hovering over the upper decks and the pool a lot, but that is just the way it comes into land. We should be done in a few hours and there won't be another re-certification until tomorrow".<Woppa-woppa-woppa>
• "It would be a terrible shame if something happened to your nice shiny liner, wouldn't it captain? And accidents happen so easily; hulls get scraped, mooring lines come loose...limpet mines get attached".

 

[ASSAIL]

Its the NSW/Sydney economy which benefits from the cruise ship visits so the political arguement is hard to win, Navy is on a hiding to nothing.

It has been covered in the enquiry but, the State govt should be funded to dredge the eastern side of Garden Island and construct 2 or 3 new finger jetties there. The loan can be repaid with the income generated!

In any case, the problems of space at GI are not diminishing over time. If defence funding returns to the bi-partisan agreed levels of 2.5% GDP the RAN will grow, who knows to perhaps a force structure 25% larger than current levels? When this happens the current debate will seem immaterial. Think future subs, auxilliaries, Amphibs

FBE and FBW are the foundations of this growth and while capacity exists to expand it should happen before a third major base is considered.
The East coast/Queensland proposition is too early IMHO.

 

[Jhom]

Problem: Sydney Harbour Bridge is too low.
Solution: Demolish bridge and replace with more tunnels.
I'm available for more problem-solving consultations at reasonable rates.

Obviously the cruise ship access is a government policy decision that Navy has little control over.
However Navy does have some operational control over the situation. Make using Garden Island unpalatable. Pass on every single fee/cost associated with letting cruise ships use Garden Island.
The cruise lines would be charged mooring fees, right? Make them high. This is Sydney Harbour we're talking about, not Port Kembla. Charge them rental rates.
Utilities? Charge a fortune. "That's mountain spring water and 100% green energy you're sucking down, captain".
Passenger access? "Well, sir/madam, this is an active military base and as such there is a requirement that in the absence of background checks all persons must be patted down, screened, interviewed, psychologically assessed and full cavity searches for passengers exhibiting suspicious behaviour. If you co-operate fully we can have you visiting beautiful Sydney and hugging koalas in just over 90 minutes. 120 minutes maximum".
Vehicle access? Sniffer dogs, load searches, driver background checks. "For safety reasons, this truck needs a roadworthy check. It's a liability issue. Lawyers, huh?"
Naval dockyard activities?

• "Sorry, sorry. Coming through with this big crane and truckloads of gear. Sorry to be such a pain!"
• "Oh, those noisy dockyard activities? Complete coincidence that we are carrying them out next to your holiday-makers. We're not annoying them are we?"
• "The contractor keeps promising he'll be by to pick up that skip of rotting vegetable waste by the gangway. Would you like me to ring him again? Would you care to purchase some pine scented deodorant at cost?"
• "We always test horns, sirens and alarms at 3am. It is a military habit to do things when they are least expected".
• <Woppa-woppa-woppa>"The helicopter has just come out of maintenance and we need to re-certify that is can still physically fit on the ship. What did you say? Oh, I know it seems like it is hovering over the upper decks and the pool a lot, but that is just the way it comes into land. We should be done in a few hours and there won't be another re-certification until tomorrow".<Woppa-woppa-woppa>
• "It would be a terrible shame if something happened to your nice shiny liner, wouldn't it captain? And accidents happen so easily; hulls get scraped, mooring lines come loose...limpet mines get attached".

My god that made me lol so hard, my cheeks hurt...

But anyway, they really pretend to embark and disembark people from big ass cruisers on an active military base? that sounds odd...

 

[StevoJH]

They don't need to, the problem is that the NSW Government does not want to pay for a new Cruise Ship Terminal and associated support Wharfs etc.

Sydney has plenty of space, the catch is that most of it is the wrong side of the Harbour Bridge.

Options could include the expansion of the cruise terminal next to Circular Quay or some land reclaimation and Dock extensions to the eastern side of Garden Island (for civil use).

If the Navy requires additional dock space, maybe Cockatoo Island can be returned in exchange for partial use of Eastern Garden Island, since it would be a new development it *might* be possible to sparate civil and military operations with a single large cruise ship berth.

 

[ASSAIL]

If the Navy requires additional dock space, maybe Cockatoo Island can be returned in exchange for partial use of Eastern Garden Island, since it would be a new development it *might* be possible to sparate civil and military operations with a single large cruise ship berth.[/

QUOTE]

The problems with this proposal are; firstly, Codock is long gone and even if resuscetated it is not an effecient place to berth and sustain ships. This ineffeciency was a major reason why it was killed off.
If it was simply berthing space the RAN could use then Glebe Island/White Bay would be a more productive solution. However, the splitting of the Fleet support facilities and the berths, such as offered by the Glebe Island solution is unacceptable to navy as we have discussed some time ago.

Secondly, trying to integrate a cruise ship terminal and a Fleet base is a logistical nightmare. Thousands of people/ tons of stores, scores of buses etc etc converge during cruise changeovers. (If you have seen Fort Lauderdale and similar terminals you can envisage the chaos). Bare in mind, GI is a small island located at the end of a busy inner city peninsular and accessed from a very narrow roadway around the drydock to get to your proposed berths

Seems to me to be better to give the cruise ships occaisional access to Wooloomooloo and trade that off with new finger berths on the eastern side which we need in the future anyway.

Cheers

 

[StevoJH]

I'm not saying its a good idea, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened though.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The argument is screw the navy, we can make a few extra bucks (we being the local and state governments) with cruise ships using the navy base. Sure it would cost $20+ billion to build a new navy base, but that's not our (state/local) concern.

Of course I have a better idea. Lets allow US nuclear carriers to dock in Sydney. What, 5,000 on the carrier as well with thousands on other escorts/amphibs. Would be like 5 QM all at once. So really we should be expanding the navy base. There is more money in it and its easier to do and the navy and the ADF get something out of it (more training with US forces)..

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The Navy thinks they can manage the situation over the next two years with the cruise ships but after that with the fleet back up to strength (LHDs, AWDs) it’s a different story. Though we will wait and see what happens this summer with all the RAN ships needing maintenance berths at FBE and who gets what space with the cruise ships in port. Wouldn’t be the first time the brass agreed publically with the political leadership while their service was being reamed.

Long term as we’ve discussed before here the Navy is probably best to get the major fleet base out of Port Jackson. The entire harbour’s future as a working port is very doubtful. The commercial and social interests for servicing Sydney are just too strong for such a central location. The only acceptable alternative location I could think of is Botany Bay.

And in particular Kingsford Smith’s third runway. If a second Sydney Airport was ever to be built, as it needs to be, and as the Badgery’s Creek proposal was planned the entire Mascot Kingsford Smith facility would become redundant as a commercial airport and could be redeveloped. In which case Fleet Base East could be moved to Botany co-locating with the major commercial port on a green fields site with major transport access and industrial infrastructure and plenty of space.

 

[icelord]

Long term as we’ve discussed before here the Navy is probably best to get the major fleet base out of Port Jackson. The entire harbour’s future as a working port is very doubtful. The commercial and social interests for servicing Sydney are just too strong for such a central location. The only acceptable alternative location I could think of is Botany Bay.

And in particular Kingsford Smith’s third runway. If a second Sydney Airport was ever to be built, as it needs to be, and as the Badgery’s Creek proposal was planned the entire Mascot Kingsford Smith facility would become redundant as a commercial airport and could be redeveloped. In which case Fleet Base East could be moved to Botany co-locating with the major commercial port on a green fields site with major transport access and industrial infrastructure and plenty of space

I would have to ask whether basing there would also include accomadation, as this would lead to sound issues. although if they kept the core of GI and built service accomadation there to stick it to all the pricks that would want to develop apartments, and only have it for defence that would be icing on the cake as it would really stick it to those wanting us out of the area.
Im not sure visiting Yank ships would love the idea of being so close to an airport, whole plane crash scenario would drive them insane.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Im not sure visiting Yank ships would love the idea of being so close to an airport, whole plane crash scenario would drive them insane.

This would only be possible if the airport was closed or at least the third runway as you would need the tarmac to build the new base on top of. If a proper second airport like Badgery’s Creek was built then all the current commercial (passenger and cargo) operations would move to the new site. Mascot would either close entirely or be used as a maintenance, GA, minor commercial airport. In which case the number of flights would be hugely reduced. And besides the harbour location of Port Botany isn’t under any flight paths and quite a few USN bases have their own airfields (Oakland, San Diego, Pearl Harbour).

 

[ASSAIL]

This would only be possible if the airport was closed or at least the third runway as you would need the tarmac to build the new base on top of. If a proper second airport like Badgery’s Creek was built then all the current commercial (passenger and cargo) operations would move to the new site. Mascot would either close entirely or be used as a maintenance, GA, minor commercial airport. In which case the number of flights would be hugely reduced. And besides the harbour location of Port Botany isn’t under any flight paths and quite a few USN bases have their own airfields (Oakland, San Diego, Pearl Harbour).

Port Botany is a bloody side more sensible than Brisbane River and "extending the third runway" taakes on a whole new meaning!

Let's not hold our collective breath on this one!

 

[the road runner]

I would have to ask whether basing there would also include accomadation, as this would lead to sound issues.

Its not to bad, if you have a concrete roof and double glazed windows.
Cuts down the noise level quite a bit.

Would think Macquarie bank wouldn't be to happy with giving up Sydney International Airport,they have spent quite alot of money purchasing and developing the Airport.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Would think Macquarie bank wouldn't be to happy with giving up Sydney International Airport,they have spent quite alot of money purchasing and developing the Airport.

If a second airport is built then they won’t have much of a future at Mascot running an airport without any airplanes flying in and out. They would be then reaping the bonanza of the greatest urban redevelopment in Sydney’s history. The Government can then resume some or all of the bayside part of the then defunct airport to build a new navy base. I kind of like the idea of the water between the two runways being turned into a basin for the entire fleet.

 

[aussienscale]

I think QLD will go hard trying for FBE, yet another loss for NSW to QLD

Stupid thing is the Barry's and Clover's do not realise that they will loose much much more than they think they will ever gain from cruise ships each year ! and they wonder why they loose out to QLD and VIC on so many things

As for Gillard making the decision...... what an idiot !! Yet another example of a Labour Government making a stupid decision that will impact on the Navy for decades to come, thanks Julia and Bob.

Rant Over

I do agree with what Abe did say though in that as a working harbour it really only has limited time left, but it's a moot point

 

[rand0m]

We're a country surrounded by sea & yet we can't find a place to tie up our navy, just more evidence that this country is run by a bunch of clowns.

 

[Vanguard]

Will Senator Johnston and Robert, assuming they keep their portfolios, be any better though?

 

[ASSAIL]

If a second airport is built then they won’t have much of a future at Mascot running an airport without any airplanes flying in and out. They would be then reaping the bonanza of the greatest urban redevelopment in Sydney’s history. The Government can then resume some or all of the bayside part of the then defunct airport to build a new navy base. I kind of like the idea of the water between the two runways being turned into a basin for the entire fleet.

All good stuff Abe but the Sydney second airport issue seems to be intracable. Both sides of politics fail/have failed to show any vision either at state or fed level over this issue and blame each other for inaction depending upon who is in power at any stage. They have all shied away from the voter "not in my backyard" syndrome caused by the anti noise horsesh..t from the early jet years. The collective failure to forsee the benefit is mind boggling. Anyway...no politics:gun

Who owns the real estate at Mascot? Feds, State or Macquarie? Has your proposition been canvassed in mafunction junction, or is defence further down the track to moving FBE away from Sydney?
If there is further inquiry into the relocation surely now is the time for proposals such as Mascot to be listed in some form of "Statement of Intent" so long term planning can commence however, again, I'm not holding my breath!

 

[Abraham Gubler]

We're a country surrounded by sea & yet we can't find a place to tie up our navy, just more evidence that this country is run by a bunch of clowns.

Antarctica is surrounded by sea, so is Africa try finding navy friendly ports there.

Australia has no problem finding a navy base on our east coast. The navy is currently located in one of the world’s best harbours (if not the best) with lots of easy access to the infrastructure needed to sustain it. (Well that statement was true up until the 1970s.) Port Jackson/Sydney Harbour could and has sustained a much larger navy than Australia’s. You could base the USN’s Pacific Fleet there without too much trouble.

The problem is the affluence of Sydney has been driving out heavy industry from Port Jackson. Balmain, Darling Harbour even the site of the Opera House all used to be industrial locations until 50 years ago. Contemporary industry also prefers flat hardstand space for operations and doesn’t need the same proximity to water thanks to our much improved road transport links and port efficiency (containers).

Now once you remove Port Jackson from the equation there aren’t many other port options on the east coast. North of Sydney the only natural harbour is Port Stephens and it is too shallow for shipping. All the other ports are river ports which are either too small or too far from the open sea. There are some harbours south of Sydney like Jervis Bay but none of them have any industrial infrastructure. Hobart has the best port in eastern Australia after Sydney. Basing the Navy there but would probably be disastrous for personnel retention.