Twinblade
Member
Not really, this article reports what PAC executives told the media, nothing more, nothing less. It has been reported by other news agencies as well.
Jf-17 thunder block-2 is under construction in real ????
- Thread starter Tango1992
- Start date
The "report" you posted is nothing more than a blog. It's also incorrect and misleading, the blog copies information the Express Tribune article, which misleadingly gave the impression that a discounted price was being offered.
In reality, the statements made by the Defence Minister(Mukhtar) and the Air Chief only say that the aircraft offers alot of capabilities at a great price.
Twinblade
Member
Why squabble over a source on something which gets picked up and reported by various news agencies ?
You do realize, that a *discount* means that something was offered at a higher price, and it's price has now been decreased. That blog you posted, and the Express Tribune(Pakistani newspaper) article it seems to have copied from, misleadingly talked about discounted prices.
That tidbit, was incorrect. Mukhtar's statement about this costing 1/3rd the price of a Block-52 F-16 does not indicate that the JF17 is being offered at a discounted price.
That tidbit, was incorrect. Mukhtar's statement about this costing 1/3rd the price of a Block-52 F-16 does not indicate that the JF17 is being offered at a discounted price.
On topic - as this thread's about JF17's Block-2 development. This is an article from AINonline(Aviation International News - American aviation magazine):
Looks like these guys did an interview with the Air Chief at the Dubai Airshow.
ainonline.com/?q=aviation-news/dubai-air-show/2011-11-14/china-pakistan-jf-17-fighter-slated-block-2-upgrades
Looks like these guys did an interview with the Air Chief at the Dubai Airshow.
Twinblade
Member
Now compare the upgrades PAF chief is is talking about to the uber Jf-17 some poster from PakDef is talking about. This seems like a reasonable upgrade that will not affect prices much.
@EagleHannan is an insider who works at Chengdu, and has a track-record of being right.
Though the Air Chief did not say this was an exhaustive list, his statement still confirms MUCH of what was being discussed earlier. He confirmed the improved EW suite, IFR, new weaponry(but he wasn't specific on the Brazilian weapons - but it is publically known that Brazilian weapons are on the table. MAR-1 has already been inducted). The one thing not mentioned here is the radar, the air-chief hasn't confirmed or denied whether the JF17'll move on from the KLJ-07 radar towards AESA models.
But it is known that the the JF17's radar was derived from the J-10's KLJ-10. They share the overall architecture, the one major difference is that KLJ-07's sender/reciever dish is smaller. J-10's KLJ-10 has been upgraded in the J-10B variant, and it really seems pretty plausible that JF17 might get an improved radar based on that as well.
Various sources have already mentioned, afterall, that NRIET in China, has been working on a follow-up radar package for the JF17.
Though the Air Chief did not say this was an exhaustive list, his statement still confirms MUCH of what was being discussed earlier. He confirmed the improved EW suite, IFR, new weaponry(but he wasn't specific on the Brazilian weapons - but it is publically known that Brazilian weapons are on the table. MAR-1 has already been inducted). The one thing not mentioned here is the radar, the air-chief hasn't confirmed or denied whether the JF17'll move on from the KLJ-07 radar towards AESA models.
But it is known that the the JF17's radar was derived from the J-10's KLJ-10. They share the overall architecture, the one major difference is that KLJ-07's sender/reciever dish is smaller. J-10's KLJ-10 has been upgraded in the J-10B variant, and it really seems pretty plausible that JF17 might get an improved radar based on that as well.
Various sources have already mentioned, afterall, that NRIET in China, has been working on a follow-up radar package for the JF17.
What would the life cycle cost of operating the JF-17 fighter be?
Assumptions:
--20 year live cycle
--20,000 hours flown over 20 years
--1 major upgrade before end of life
--decent electronics/sensors/radars
--good engine
My estimate is $300 million over 20 years:
--$35 million initial procurement CAPEX (high end version)
--$25 million mid life upgrade
--$60 million in spare engine costs over 20 years
--$120 million for non engine spares, maintenance hours, fuels over 20 years ($6000/hour * 20,000 hours)
Or $240 million over 20 years. $12 million per year.
Is there a better methodology to calculate life cycle costs than this?
Any thoughts on comparable numbers for the Indian Tejas, South Korean T-50 trainer, AT-50 light attack trainer, FA-50, L-15 trainer etc.
Assumptions:
--20 year live cycle
--20,000 hours flown over 20 years
--1 major upgrade before end of life
--decent electronics/sensors/radars
--good engine
My estimate is $300 million over 20 years:
--$35 million initial procurement CAPEX (high end version)
--$25 million mid life upgrade
--$60 million in spare engine costs over 20 years
--$120 million for non engine spares, maintenance hours, fuels over 20 years ($6000/hour * 20,000 hours)
Or $240 million over 20 years. $12 million per year.
Is there a better methodology to calculate life cycle costs than this?
Any thoughts on comparable numbers for the Indian Tejas, South Korean T-50 trainer, AT-50 light attack trainer, FA-50, L-15 trainer etc.
After reading through 5 pages, the main argument you guys are having is that the JF-17 Block 2 is a very competitive 4.5 gen fighter while at the same time being under 30 million?
Ugh, last time I checked the JAS-39 Gripen is under 30 million. And so far from reading stats, the Gripen is superior to the JF-17 Block 2 in almost all fields.
So if I were a South American, African, or Middle Eastern country that could not afford Western, European(mainly being EF2K or Rafale), or Russian fighters, I would buy the Gripen ANY DAY over the JF-17...
And not trying to talk crap, but I personally never been a fan of Chinese radar, or Chinese Engines...
EDIT:
IDK how accurate this site is
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopter-airplane/Mikoyan-MIG-35/375
but according to it, the Mig-35 cost is roughly 30 million...
So make that 2 fighters that are 4.5 gen that can outperform the JF-17 Block 2 for a cheap price tag..
Ugh, last time I checked the JAS-39 Gripen is under 30 million. And so far from reading stats, the Gripen is superior to the JF-17 Block 2 in almost all fields.
So if I were a South American, African, or Middle Eastern country that could not afford Western, European(mainly being EF2K or Rafale), or Russian fighters, I would buy the Gripen ANY DAY over the JF-17...
And not trying to talk crap, but I personally never been a fan of Chinese radar, or Chinese Engines...
EDIT:
IDK how accurate this site is
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopter-airplane/Mikoyan-MIG-35/375
but according to it, the Mig-35 cost is roughly 30 million...
So make that 2 fighters that are 4.5 gen that can outperform the JF-17 Block 2 for a cheap price tag..
Comrade, could you compare the life cycle costs of the JF-17 with the Gripen?
My estimates are $240 million for the JF-17 over 20 years compared to $400 million for the Gripen. Are these estimates wrong? How so?
My estimates are $240 million for the JF-17 over 20 years compared to $400 million for the Gripen. Are these estimates wrong? How so?
Well, taking this info from the other thread according to this
Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters: Jane
I'm sorry I cant do the math like you did for the JF-17 because I dont have enough info and really dont know enough about military aviation to make those kinds of guesses, but the hard fact that I do know, taken from the link above is
Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters: Jane
I'm sorry I cant do the math like you did for the JF-17 because I dont have enough info and really dont know enough about military aviation to make those kinds of guesses, but the hard fact that I do know, taken from the link above is
And then it goes on to say
Reason I bring that part up, is because the PAF uses F-16's alongside with JF-17's
I would not be surprise if a third world Air force picks up the JF-17 as an alternative to western or Russian Aircraft. I can see some small, semi poor African, central American, South American or even Middle eastern Air force buying the JF-17. It's comparable to the US F-5 Freedom Fighter in terms of fly away Cost.
Russia can sell fighters cheaper than the gripen. The Gripens western armaments are also expensive.
Also most third world countries you describe will find it hard to get American permission for the Gripens weaponry, they might have trouble buying air Craft from Sweden too, as most of them probably will not rank very high in the Wests friends list.
Korean FA-50 is roughly on the same price range as well.
Then there are relatively "newer" 2nd-hand planes such as UAE's Mirage 2k-9 planes reportedly being pitched at only around 20 million euros each. Qatar is also actively selling their 12 Mirage 2k-5.
There are far more better and safer alternatives at that price range to the JF-17.
Then there are relatively "newer" 2nd-hand planes such as UAE's Mirage 2k-9 planes reportedly being pitched at only around 20 million euros each. Qatar is also actively selling their 12 Mirage 2k-5.
There are far more better and safer alternatives at that price range to the JF-17.
After reading about the JF-17, its not even that good of a plane..compared to other planes in its class.
Since they want to put it in the 4.5 gen class, compared to others it has weak avionics and old engines...
I can now see why Pakistan is the only nation that so far has purchased it
It maybe a good plane for some third world Air force who's trying to get a decent fighter. It may not meet western or Russian standards, but to a third world country, it may be a fighter for them.
Also, how many third world countries would ya be betting the JF-17 be flying for.
A lot of 3rd world countries cant afford 4.5 gen planes...
However if what I read in Google is correct(and please correct me if I'm not) the JF-17 Block 2 is roughly the same price as the Mig-35
And the Mig-35 can out perform the JF-17 in a lot of categories, plus if you have the JF-17, the parts are coming from 2 countries, with the Mig it all comes from the same place
So if I was a 3rd world country that needed an advanced fighter for cheap I would go with the Mig-35..
Twinblade
Member
For any country operating ancient MiG-21, f-4, a-4 or Mirage f-1, Jf-17 offers a decent and cheap upgrade, but the light fighter market is insanely overcrowded, especially since it has been infiltrated by combat trainers. So apart from Jf-17 you have
Upper end:
F-16 and Gripen NG
Mid segment
Tejas, T-50, second hand Gripens, f-16 and Mirage-2000
Combat trainers
L-15, Yak-130, M-346, JL-8
So you have products of higher quality and products that are cheaper just a few million up and down. Some of them are mature and battle proven (F-16, Mirage 2000), others have a distinct development road-map ahead of them (Tejas, Golden Eagle, Gripen and even Yak-130) and others offer advantages like training a generation of pilots while providing basic minimum combat capabilities.
Cheapness is not the be all requirement even if your a 3rd world country. It has to be safe and reliable as well. There would always be questions regarding the China/Pakistan JF-17 plane in terms of that. How about the quality of those Chinese weapons, radars and esp. the engines?
They have to compete with 2nd-hand planes as well. I'll tell you right now, they may be 3rd world countries but that doesn't mean they won't be weighing the pros and cons of buying unproven planes like the JF-17. Some would prefer getting 2nd-hand F-16s upgraded to block 50/52 at around $32M or so (Indonesia and Romania) or 2nd-hand French Mirages than buy unproven planes such as the JF-17.
African countries? Uganda and Ethiopia has been buying Russian SU-30 mk2s and Su-27s.
Also, recently Russia has been selling India's ex-SU-30Ks to be upgraded to KN standards for only $15M each. UAE selling their Mirage 2000-9 for less than $30M.
Between brand-new planes such as the Migs , FA-50s and Gripens and 2nd-hand proven planes such as F-16s and Mirages I don't see many lining-up for the JF-17.
They have to compete with 2nd-hand planes as well. I'll tell you right now, they may be 3rd world countries but that doesn't mean they won't be weighing the pros and cons of buying unproven planes like the JF-17. Some would prefer getting 2nd-hand F-16s upgraded to block 50/52 at around $32M or so (Indonesia and Romania) or 2nd-hand French Mirages than buy unproven planes such as the JF-17.
African countries? Uganda and Ethiopia has been buying Russian SU-30 mk2s and Su-27s.
Also, recently Russia has been selling India's ex-SU-30Ks to be upgraded to KN standards for only $15M each. UAE selling their Mirage 2000-9 for less than $30M.
Between brand-new planes such as the Migs , FA-50s and Gripens and 2nd-hand proven planes such as F-16s and Mirages I don't see many lining-up for the JF-17.