Jf-17 thunder block-2 is under construction in real ????

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There has to be something wrong for the PLAAF not to have the JF-17 in its air force. What really going on with this jet? It just don't seem right for it to just go into a some joint production with the Pakistan Air Force. Has to be a problem with the program if it let the PAF have deal like that. It don't make scent.
Not really. China has multiple simultaneous TACAIR replacement programs runnng. Perhaps they don't simply have the capacity to introduce yet another type at the same time?

Even in China there has to be a finite number of resources to introduce a new tactical fighter type, both financial and technical. China hasn't bought the JF-17 yet, it's concentrating on J-10, J-20 and others. That doesn't mean they won't ever be interested in it.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
To keep this short:

1. FC-1/JF-17 was developed mainly for the export market. The Chinese military did not actually provide much funding for the project. It was mainly supported by plane developer's own money as well as Pakistan.

2. China does not aim to maintain the current number of fighter planes. In fact, the mainstay of the air force has been shrinking for the past two decades. J-10 pretty much fills up any role JF-17 can take.

3. J-6 is no longer in active service, and there are no plans to replace them.
From what PLAF so far indicated in their plan, that's about it. Why some people think that since JF-17 is going to be used extensively by PAF, then PLAF has to use them also..well it's beyond me :D

Ooo..perhaps because in some circle think JF-17 is better than J-10..hmmmm :rolleyes:
 

swerve

Super Moderator
There has to be something wrong for the PLAAF not to have the JF-17 in its air force. What really going on with this jet? It just don't seem right for it to just go into a some joint production with the Pakistan Air Force. Has to be a problem with the program if it let the PAF have deal like that. It don't make scent.
Take a look at the F-5A. Operated by many air forces successfully, decent record where used in combat. Only operated by the USA in small numbers for "combat evaluation" by one squadron in Vietnam, & that was handed over to S. Vietnam after 2 years.

Or the F-5E, which was only used by the USA for training, in DACT "aggressor" units.

There have been other cases of private venture, joint private/overseas developments, losing candidates in internal selections being chosen by foreign forces with different needs from the home forces, etc. The export-only type is not a new idea, & it has respectable antecedents.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From what PLAF so far indicated in their plan, that's about it. Why some people think that since JF-17 is going to be used extensively by PAF, then PLAF has to use them also..well it's beyond me :D

Ooo..perhaps because in some circle think JF-17 is better than J-10..hmmmm :rolleyes:
Depends on your definition of better. If you need 180 fighters to replace legacy fighters in significant numbers than it may very well be "better" than a J-10...

Even in Pakistan it is intended only as the "low" but significant in numbers part of their force.

The PAF chief has acknowledged plenty of times the JF-17 Block I is less capable than the F-16 Block 52's they have and the J-10's they want, but it meets their requirements for a low end 4th gen fighter to replace theie older fighters and increase overall capability.

Only those inspired with nationalistic fervour would argue otherwise, much in the way that some do for the Tejas, some do for the Gripen, SU-30, Rafale, F-22 and so on.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
The PAF chief has acknowledged plenty of times the JF-17 Block I is less capable than the F-16 Block 52's they have and the J-10's they want, but it meets their requirements for a low end 4th gen fighter to replace theie older fighters and increase overall capability.
True, the only thing that JF-17 is better than J-10 is relatively cheaper and less sophisticated than J-10, thus it can be mass produced then J-10. That's why I said before, if China decide to replace all J-6 on one on one basis, then perhaps they need JF-17, since it will be difficult even for China to produce 3000 + J-10 to replace all J-6.

However just like F-20, even-though it's a good Fighter, it's useless for USAF since they already have F-16. Similar situation happen in here with PLAF for J-10 and JF-17. JF-17 and J-10 are both China products, and PLAF know what're the capabilities of both aircraft. I just stipulated if someone question PLAF decision for not using JF-17, well why they don't question USAF decision for not extensively using F-5E/F-20 ? ;)
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I don't understand why you keep referring to replacing J-6 on a one for one basis. The last j-6 was retired several years ago, & it's a long time since there were over 1000 of them in service. The J-6 was replaced long ago, by smaller numbers of more capable fighters.

One might as well discuss the USA buying new aircraft to replace the F-86 one for one. It's too late.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I don't understand why you keep referring to replacing J-6 on a one for one basis. The last j-6 was retired several years ago, & it's a long time since there were over 1000 of them in service. The J-6 was replaced long ago, by smaller numbers of more capable fighters.

One might as well discuss the USA buying new aircraft to replace the F-86 one for one. It's too late.
Swerve, I put it J-6 on the context of this thread. In sense I just point out that unless PLAF wants to replace J-6 on one on one basis, there's no need for JF-17 in PLAF. With J-10 already on the production and on way to replace J-7, there's no room for JF-17 in PLAF inventory.

I just reply for a post in here, that insist PLAF want and need to replace all J-6. Thus I just point that J-6 already being replaced by J-7 (although not on one on one basis), and J-7 on the way being replaced by J-10. Thus there's no room on PLAF plan for JF-17.

I agree with you. Suggesting that PLAF need to replace all J-6, is the same thing suggesting USAF replacing all F-86 on one on one basis.
Sorry If I don't make it clearer in the beginning.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Wikipedia is a useful source for many things, but this isn't one of them.

I automatically disregard all claims on Wikipedia that country X will buy weapon Y, except where they are accompanied by properly sourced references to orders - and there isn't one in this case.

Ananda,

sorry, I didn't understand your intention. All clear now.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think the PLAAF might consider the FC1 when a Chinese company can produce the reiable engine it needs.
 

anan

Member
If a country wants to modify the Jf-17 to incorporate an engine from GE, Rolls-Royce, CFM International, or Pratt & Whitney; how difficult would this be? The actual design and installation could be done by China, presumably, if the country in question lacked the technical expertize. This would be a third or fourth tranche of the Jf-17 because of the long lead times of redesigning the JF-17 to use a better engine.

Would the JF-17 design benefit significantly from a better aircraft engine? How good is the RD-93 engine? What engine options are being considered for the third iteration [tranche] of the Jf-17?

Looking forward to learning from everyone's insights. :)
 

CN_Dragon

New Member
FC-1 carry C803

Few days ago,Saw the FC-1 carry C803

Mod edit: threads mergerd. We don't need 3 separate threads on the JF-17...

Cool news though, thanks.

AD
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MaximumG

New Member
Kathryn's Report: AIRSHOW-Pakistan offers cut-price fighter jet[/url]

According to this report Pakistan is "giving a discount" on JF-17 to African nations and offering it at $25-30 million US. So the claims that about its outrageously low cost (15 to 20 mil) were outrageously inaccurate.

PS: Not trying to instigate a flame war but Tejas with significantly higher western subsystems is also available at $30 million US.
Are you sure Tejas is available for exports?
 

legoboy

New Member
How do you guys think the exporting will work ? Because China and Pakistan both put in 50% of the development costs so who exactly gets the right to export and manufacture and so forth.

Say South Africa orders 20 JF-17's. Will it be like a bidding war between Pakistan and China to see who can supply these at the lower price or what?

Also TwinBlade the article says new JF-17's which would refer to the Block 2 ones which have an estimated cost of $20-25 million so it's a little bit more accurate in price =p.
 

Twinblade

Member
Also TwinBlade the article says new JF-17's which would refer to the Block 2 ones which have an estimated cost of $20-25 million so it's a little bit more accurate in price =p.
It doesn't say anything about blocks, infact there is no reliable info available on the block-2, its date of delivery, increased capability or anything at all. No news on MoU's being signed, no news on subsystems, no public info on the requirements set by the prime customer, no info on project targets and the list is really long.
 

legoboy

New Member
It doesn't say anything about blocks, infact there is no reliable info available on the block-2, its date of delivery, increased capability or anything at all. No news on MoU's being signed, no news on subsystems, no public info on the requirements set by the prime customer, no info on project targets and the list is really long.
Well you would assume NEW would refer to the latest block wouldn't you ? Unless the Pakistani's consider an aircraft they got over 2 years ago still NEW.

Pakistan and China have recently concluded a final agreement for the manufacture of a second batch of JF-17s. According to well-vetted sources from Pakdef (Eagle Hannan), these 50 jets are the final form of the JF-17s. The aircraft will be manufactured at Kamra, Pakistan, but will be flown to China for additional work. This work is said to relate to a new generation of avionics and sensor suite.

The Block II JF-17 is believed to have AESA radars similar to those observed on the J-10B. The integrated avionics, sensors and EW suite is entirely Chinese and is believed to be at the level of Europes best planes. The AESA radar is a slightly smaller version of the one being utilized for the J-10B. The radar is highly sophisticated and its installation is beyond the present capacity at PAC Kamra and will thus require the aircraft to take a trip to Nanjing, China.

The Block II will be the standard version to be used in the PAF with the older Block Is to be retired after the end of production for the first 150 aircraft. This suggests that the structural changes needed to convert the Block Is to Block II standard are significant, suggesting considerable changes to the revised edition. The following are believed to be some of the key changes:

1. AESA radar

2. Comprehensive upgrades for low RCS profile including cockpit glass, RAM paint, refined structure, completely new nose structure for AESA, significant increase in the use of composites and retractable refueling probe.

3. Awaited integration of A-Darter missiles from Brazil / South Africa with HOBS capability and Brazilian HMS.

4. The BVR missile is the SD-10B which has been found more than a match for the AMRAAM-120 C5s. An unknown Meteor class missile is in the works beyond the SD-10Bs.
A significant export order has been secured and an entire squadron is being dedicated for training and familiarization of foreign pilots (Source: Eagle Hannan, Pakdef).

Contrary to conflicting reports in the media, this writer believes that the order for the FC-20s were finalized and that this order has increased to 58 planes. Given the recent crisis post-Abbottabad, the PAF is being beefed up in a hurry and the FC-20s will play a critical role in the defence of the Western sector. Given the nature of the mountainous terrain and the inability to use the F-16s, these platforms along with the JF-17 will prove to be of significant deterrence value. China is believed to be sacrificing its own production requirements to meet PAF's needs in a hurry and unbelievable financial terms appear to have been extended.

These FC-20s are a highly lethal version of the original and incorporate AESA radars, a high degree of composite use, low observability features and an advanced integrated avionics suite. The wide HUD visible on the J-11s are also believed to have been utilized. In Eagle Hannan's recent update, he notes that the wings have been modified and include over 50% composite use. He also makes the surprising claim that the canard fore-planes have been modified. Both these factors indicate a significant structural and aerodynamic revamp that would require significant changes even in the FBW.Such a revamp was already suspected given the canted nose and the DSI bump.

The same source also indicates that the plane (FC-20) has been praised by pilots and capable of incredible maneuvers including the Cobra so famously performed by the FLANKERs. He notes that FC-20 not only performs this maneuver but also performs it better, recovering significantly faster. While this maneuver is not of great military importance, the maneuverability and Fly-By-Wire (FBW) maturity this indicates, suggest that the FC-20 is a well-evolved and lethal machine.

Eagle Hannan also indicates that the Pakistan Navy is interested in the J-11Bs with Russian engines. This appears to be counter-intuitive given the sensitive nature of Russia's copyright relations with China. However, it is possible that Pakistan may attempt to placate this sensitivity by buying Russian engines and paying royalties. It is also possible that Russia is smarting from India's recent rejection of Russian military gear and move towards Western sources. These all make for a great deal of controversy and are likely to keep arm-chair generals and military analysts busy in the foreseeable future.What is clear is that Pakistan and the PAF will get a significant boost, in fact a major leap in capabilities in the next 12-24 months.
 

legoboy

New Member
Kathryn's Report: AIRSHOW-Pakistan offers cut-price fighter jet

According to this report Pakistan is "giving a discount" on JF-17 to African nations and offering it at $25-30 million US. So the claims that about its outrageously low cost (15 to 20 mil) were outrageously inaccurate.

PS: Not trying to instigate a flame war but Tejas with significantly higher western subsystems is also available at $30 million US.
Well then according to your logic this article is completely void too, so we are back to square 0.
 

jeffb

Member
It doesn't say anything about blocks, infact there is no reliable info available on the block-2, its date of delivery, increased capability or anything at all. No news on MoU's being signed, no news on subsystems, no public info on the requirements set by the prime customer, no info on project targets and the list is really long.
You could say the same thing about any Chinese aircraft though, we have virtually zero solid information on anything outside some random "leaked" photos and a whole lot of speculation.

It's pretty safe to assume that anyone who is claiming to be a well vetted source on modern Chinese aircraft probably has no real clue at all. China is a closed government that every now and then puts out photos highlighting features they want people to talk about, whether or not those features actually function as Western designs do is anyones guess. If you want to take it all at face value and be manipulated go for it...

If the Chinese planes were actually half as good as the speculation made them out to be, the Chinese would actually be out flying their planes rather than hyping them up on the internet.
 
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