The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

What IFV prototype do you mean, Ananda?

Seems Pindad looking to South Korea for IFV based (potentially) on K-21. If you look at this :RI-Korsel tingkatkan kerja sama industri pertahanan - AntaraNews.com
The latest talk between Indonesia and South Korea on Defense Industry cooperation. besides existing projects 209 SSK and T-50, they also talk about other projects including what they called 'joint development of medium tank' project.

Again, this Medium Tank project (IFV) is what Pindad aim for future and not MBT. Any tech they can gain from KMW is just to strengthen their Know-How for IFV project.

It's still early but what I emphasizes is, from all indication IFV (Medium Tank in Pindad term) is what Pindad after and not MBT.

For the current Prototype, so far the only Pictures available is the 'technology prototype' that Koxinga has put on his post no 181 in this thread. Local forum and Pindad development (like the possible projects with South Korea as mentioned above) indicating that prototype is only Technology Project from Pindad and will not move on to Manufacturing Phases.

Perhaps I'm a little bit hasty calling that prototype as IFV prototype. However since most IFV in the market derived from APC, then perhaps it can be called as IFV prototype

 

[old faithful]

I have just returned from 10 days in Jakarta, after spending hours and hours in the traffic, how will the TNI move these MBT,s around?

 

[Saracens]

I have just returned from 10 days in Jakarta, after spending hours and hours in the traffic, how will the TNI move these MBT,s around?

Maybe I can give a figure to your question.

1. Already have some statements that the MBT some will put at area close to neighbour, like Kalimantan for Malaysia, NTT for Timor Leste and Papua for Papua Nugini. And some surely will be put at Sumatera and Java.

2. At Jakarta if TNI want to move personel or equipment, usually the did it at night.

3. If its very urgent that have to move at daylight, they will have some escort in the front and have big sirene, so every car in the line will move away to give them the path. Every body will scare if see military movement behind them

 

[Feanor]

I have just returned from 10 days in Jakarta, after spending hours and hours in the traffic, how will the TNI move these MBT,s around?

Hmm. How might a heavily armored tracked vehicle get through a traffic jam, in war time...

 

[Ananda]

I have just returned from 10 days in Jakarta, after spending hours and hours in the traffic, how will the TNI move these MBT,s around?

You should see Jakarta conditions on 1998 at the time of Soharto fall. Emergency situations, no traffic jam and only few civilians vehicle moving around. The street full of Military vehicles including tanks. In short, if situations need be, they can clear up Jakarta roads from civilians vehicles quite fast.

 

[DavidDCM]

C'mon guys, old faithful was just cracking a joke, he was not seriously asking a question

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

C'mon guys, old faithful was just cracking a joke, he was not seriously asking a question

I think David is right.... if foreigners leave Jakarta they forget all malls, museums, monuments and restaurants...they remember only the endless traffic jams....

In big cities our armed forces normally only use wheeled vehicles, tracked ones will damage the roads which are already full of holes....

 

[Feanor]

C'mon guys, old faithful was just cracking a joke, he was not seriously asking a question

Sorry. It's hard to tell, over the internet.

Back to Indonesia, do we an update on what variant the Leos are going to be?

 

[old faithful]

Sorry guys, yes I was having a toungue in cheek crack at the traffic conditions.
The comment about the malls and museams is spot on to. I had a great time in Indonesia. Did a bit of travelling, went to Marek on a fishing trip, up to mountains to an open plain zoo, and stayed for a few days in the mountains. Just extremly frustrating getting around by car! Took over 2 hours to get to a tackle shop 30km from where I was staying,Duren Sawit.
Was impressed with the quality of some of the Military bases I saw.
Hope the Leo 2,s are a successful buy, but cant help but think the $ might be better spent else where.
Cheers, Dave.

 

[Ananda]

Just extremely frustrating getting around by car! Took over 2 hours to get to a tackle shop 30km from where I was staying,Duren Sawit.

Hope the Leo 2,s are a successful buy, but cant help but think the $ might be better spent else where.
Cheers, Dave.

Take a line on frustrating with Jakarta traffic. Some Political pundit even says that whoever able to sorted out Jakarta traffic, will have a good chance to be the next President.

Leo 2 purchase still made a lot of controversy right now in here. Many still questions the need of Leo 2 or any MBT for Indonesian Army. I believe based on several information already come out from various sources like Army, Mindef, Pindad, or Paliement, Leo 2 will be bought only for 2 or 3 battalions at most. Even though some talk about stationed Leo 2 outside Java, I still believe those MBT will be hold mostly for defense of Java, while other islands mechanizes cavalry will mostly in the form of IFV, armored Cars, or Light Tanks.

On the latest visit to local shipyard in here, the deputy Ministry of Defense quoted asking the local shipyard that building LST, to make sure the LST will be able to hold tanks 60 tons +. Thats one indications in my book to show the intentions of the mindef to stationed MBT mostly in Java, but have an option to transport them to other island if the situations arises.

Back to Indonesia, do we an update on what variant the Leos are going to be?

The latest info from the Army still talking about Leo 2 A5 or A6. will have to wait when or if the Tanks already in the inventory.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

TNI Prioritaskan Alutsista Produksi Dalam Negeri | nasional | Tempo.co

Sorry, old information.....

 

[Gadjah Mada]

It seems the army is very optimistic about Leo 2.

They are on the way building the tank depot for Leo 2.

PEMBANGUNAN GARASI TANK LEOPARD | YonKav8

It seems what Ananda said before that the MBT will be stationed in Java correct.

The 8th cavalry battalion itself part of Infantry division 2 Kostrad stationed at East Java.

 

[DavidDCM]

Hehe, those are fairly concrete steps for something that is not even finally decided yet. Seems like the army can't wait to get their hands on that tank. But yeah, as expected a Javanese unit will be the first to be equipped with the new equipment. Kostrad is also no surprise. On the other hand that means a battalion worth of Scorpion light tanks will be available for another cavalry unit in the future.

 

[Ananda]

Hehe, those are fairly concrete steps for something that is not even finally decided yet. Seems like the army can't wait to get their hands on that tank. But yeah, as expected a Javanese unit will be the first to be equipped with the new equipment. Kostrad is also no surprise. On the other hand that means a battalion worth of Scorpion light tanks will be available for another cavalry unit in the future.

MBT is a long waited new toys for the army so far the Army has a long wait for a new toys compare to Navy and the Air force. From what bits of Information that coming from Min-def, seems they are quite confident on getting Leo 2. Seems they already being somewhat guaranteed by the German, that if Dutch inventory can't be given to Indonesia, then Bundeswehr surplus inventory still available.

I do believe that 'if' Java units being replaced by MBT, those 'surplus' light tanks is the ones that will go to other islands.

 

[Gadjah Mada]

Seems they already being somewhat guaranteed by the German, that if Dutch inventory can't be given to Indonesia, then Bundeswehr surplus inventory still available.

I do believe that 'if' Java units being replaced by MBT, those 'surplus' light tanks is the ones that will go to other islands.

Portal Infopublik - Kemhan RI Pastikan Beli Tank Jerman

Jakarta, InfoPublik - Indonesia The Ministry of Defence to ensure buy heavy tank (Main Battle Tank) Leopard from Germany of 100 units in the framework of the modernization of defense equipment the Army. Original plan Leopard heavy tanks will be purchased from the Netherlands.
"Special Army, we have decided to buy Leopard tanks from Germany with the weight gain certainty of time and consideration of the target volume of military equipment we need," said Wamenhan Sjafrie Syamsuddin told reporters in Jakarta, Monday (2/7).
According Wamenhan, the planned purchase of the Leopard MBT Netherlands
stopped so that the focus of buying tanks from Germany is running smoothly.
Sjafrie explained, the allocation of a budget of 280 million U.S. dollars, the required processing is based on the allocation of foreign loans, in which the process through grend good book and blue book of Bappenas and the Ministry of Finance.
"We have done the process of acceleration, and parallel, so that within a week we will immediately obtain the certainties of the aspects of procurement and finance and of course followed by aspects of the supervision conducted by a team of prevention and procurement irregularities involving BPKP, LKTP and IG Kemhan and TNI headquarters and forces, "he said.
"The number you want in the supply tank is approximately 100 units, of that number, we want 15 units were in Indonesia in October 2012," he explained.
He added the purchase consideration Leopard Main Battle Tank of the Netherlands is not passed because of the certainty and assurance processes necessary none responded to the Dutch.
Kemhan's demand for 15 units of the German heavy tank was in Indonesia in October 2012, promulgated under the authority fully Sjafrie Army Headquarters. (Rm)

It seems the MoD has decided to quit the Dutch proposal and focus on the Bundeswehr tank.

At least one problem solved. Indonesia should not buy from an unwilling seller. Not sure though the number of 100 units still achieved since the German price could be different from the Dutch.

 

[MrWhite09]

I understand that Indonesia are purchasing about 22 K-21 IFVs from South Korea. Does anyone know whether these will be the same spec as the koreans ones or whether the export version has any differences?

 

[Ananda]

At least one problem solved. Indonesia should not buy from an unwilling seller. Not sure though the number of 100 units still achieved since the German price could be different from the Dutch.

Yes, Seems The Government choose not want to give any more 'fuel' for anti-Indonesian Dutch polticians that using the Leopard Purchase for their Papuan Agenda. We still do not know what Leo 2 that will be offered by the German. According to the article (and so far from other info), the budget will stay the same. There're indications that the German will offered Leo 2 A-4 but upgrading it to A-6 equivalent eventhough still maintaining 120-44 gun compared to A-6 120-55. The upgrade will be conducted intially by KMW but the rest by Pindad.

The Governemnt plan before for sticking with ex Dutch Leo 2 simply because those are A-6's.

Indonesia are purchasing about 22 K-21 IFVs from South Korea. Does anyone know whether these will be the same spec as the koreans ones or whether the export version has any differences?

No further official info that can confirm the deal yet. However, I suspect if the deal goes through, some modifications will be. If we look back to the case on Anoa, the Wheeled APC's was build by Pindad base on Frech VAB. However calling Anoa an entire copy of VAB is not 100% true since enough modifications on Anoa that only put just +/- 70% similarity with VAB. So there's good probability Pindad wants to build their own IFV but based on proven design. Whether the based design going to be K-21, that's still wait the confirmation.

 

[Vegan-Zombie]

There're indications that the German will offered Leo 2 A-4 but upgrading it to A-6 equivalent eventhough still maintaining 120-44 gun compared to A-6 120-55. The upgrade will be conducted intially by KMW but the rest by Pindad.

I went to the KMW booth at the 2012 Singapore Airshow and asked the Manager (coincidentally the General Manager for Asia) there about the L2 Procurement. He said that the ones offered were A4's and a few A6's. The offer was the A4's would be completely refurbished and upgraded to the A6 standard (with the L55 gun) and the A6 be refurbished to a factory new condition.

Also he added that the offer included modifications of the tank to meet the conditions of Indonesian terrain (Weight reductions, stronger tracks, etc.) with no charge and also gave the option of add on's to the tank (Remote Weapon Systems, AMAP-ADS, AMAP armor panels, cage armor like on the Canadian L2's) or upgrading the tanks to the new A7 standard with a small price increase.

To add to this topic, I don't get why the army wants to diversify it's arms procurement to fill different roles, wouldn't it be much more cheaper and logistically realistic if they would just develop existing and upcoming platforms, like the Panser, the K21's, and the L2's? I believe the Panser, if developed enough, can fill out most of the roles currently filled with very aged equipment in our armed forces, like the Stryker IFV family. And some of the L2's from the planned purchase of 300+ could be converted to Bridging, Recovery, Engineer variants, along with the K21's. I also met a guy from an army logistics company recently, and he complained about how he has to get the different parts and ammo for all the different equipment in service...

 

[STURM]

wouldn't it be much more cheaper and logistically realistic if they would just develop existing and upcoming platforms, like the Panser, the K21's, and the L2's? I believe the Panser, if developed enough, can fill out most of the roles currently filled with very aged equipment in our armed forces

But none of the vehicles you mentioned provide the same level of protection as a Leopard 2 and none can mount a 120mm gun as they are not MBTs. You have a point as to these vehicles being able to perform a variety of roles but the top brass has specified a need for MBTs.

 

[Ananda]

To add to this topic, I don't get why the army wants to diversify it's arms procurement to fill different roles, wouldn't it be much more cheaper and logistically realistic if they would just develop existing and upcoming platforms, like the Panser, the K21's, and the L2's? I believe the Panser, if developed enough, can fill out most of the roles currently filled with very aged equipment in our armed forces, like the Stryker IFV family. And some of the L2's from the planned purchase of 300+ could be converted to Bridging, Recovery, Engineer variants, along with the K21's. I also met a guy from an army logistics company recently, and he complained about how he has to get the different parts and ammo for all the different equipment in service...

Thanks for the up-date. I believe simplification of the logistics is what Min-def aim. Anoa already being set as standard Panser/Wheeled Armored Vehicle platform for TNI-AD. Anoa now being used as replacement for old ALVIS armored vehicle. Further order of Anoa is being discussed to replaced V-150.

However there're still less than 200 Anoa so far. While with TNI-AD doctrine to increase the number of mechanized battalions means some of the old ALVIS vehicle still needed as also V-150. Just like Leo 2, the Anoa being distributed to Java and Sumatra first. While the other islands will get older equipment untill enough Anoa can be procured to equipped mechanized battalions throughout the Indonesian territory.

As for K-21/IFV project, well no solid information on what Pindad will be used as based for their so called ' medium tank'/IFV yet. K-21 being rumored as favorite, due to Korean willingness on providing/sharing much of the technology and also since it's considered more advance design then the other contender (Turkish build) IFV. However again, at least for me, no solid information yet on the project.

If you see what Pindad project like, Anoa, and other prototype that come such as Renault Sherpa based (called Eagle by them if not mistaken) as scout armored vehicle, 4x4 vehicle (can be Garda or Komodo), it's a move to standardize and simplified the logistics of the Army vehicles.

However the Army so far already operated multiple sources of vehicles. Thus standardization move will take time, and in my prediction if doing it by this rate, the overall standardization can only be achieved 3-4 years at the fastest or up end of this decade. This only if no other 'political' disturbances coming from the Parliament as what Indonesian Politics usually must faced this days.