Royal New Zealand Air Force

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Journalists are only interested in controversy, not true facts. Controversy sells papers, not cold hard true facts.
And there the rub both our major newspapers have left & right biases.

If the journalist had any credentials, she/he would have left their chair by their desk in their office and asked questions to those military personnel who are operating the helicopters. I am curious what the pilots and maintenance crews think of the helicopter, not some auditor pencil pusher.
There are a few journalists in this country who have any credentials, however none of them will leave there chairs to ask anyone in the NZDF outside of Wellington or Auckland about how these helos are operating as you say controversy sells.

I speak to 3 Sqn pers due to my current role (NTC equivalent Land) who have spoken about the tranformational leap in capability the NH90 provides over the UH1H they caution like we did with LAV its still early days but you can see in there body language & in there eyes that they cant wait for it to reach OLOC and be deployable.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
And there the rub both our major newspapers have left & right biases.



There are a few journalists in this country who have any credentials, however none of them will leave there chairs to ask anyone in the NZDF outside of Wellington or Auckland about how these helos are operating as you say controversy sells.

I speak to 3 Sqn pers due to my current role (NTC equivalent Land) who have spoken about the tranformational leap in capability the NH90 provides over the UH1H they caution like we did with LAV its still early days but you can see in there body language & in there eyes that they cant wait for it to reach OLOC and be deployable.
Frankly New Zealand didn't buy a lot of NH90s. Therefore New Zealand didn't get as much bang for the bucks for tools and spares, having to buy a ninth helicopter for a spares hulk. Other nations which bought more were/are able to spread the tools and spares costs out more. I am not so sure if New Zealand had bought Seahawks they would have gotten much of a better lower cost per medium sized helicopter.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Frankly New Zealand didn't buy a lot of NH90s. Therefore New Zealand didn't get as much bang for the bucks for tools and spares, having to buy a ninth helicopter for a spares hulk. Other nations which bought more were/are able to spread the tools and spares costs out more. I am not so sure if New Zealand had bought Seahawks they would have gotten much of a better lower cost per medium sized helicopter.
Seahawks did not meet customer requirements, namely NZ Army. To do achieve same capability we would have had to purchase a greater number of Seahawks or UH60 airframes. Buying an attritional airframe does offer some mitigation towards the overly long support and spares issues that surround the tryanny of distance.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
It's probably the case indeed that NZ didn't get more bang for the bucks for the tools and spares for the numbers of helos bought, but that's what happens when one has a small air force and it wants new, new generation hardware (i.e. not second hand, older generation hardware with a dirt cheap purchase price) and also has to purchase extensive spares from NHI (as opposed to buying as-and-when-needed from the US supply chain). But the up front cost also included aircrew training in France etc.

The other factor influencing the NH-90 buy would be to maintain inter-operability with the ADF (and thus also their spare parts supply).

But yes helo #9 is a "hulk" (I had wondered whether the air force was being crafty and bought a complete airframe all kitted out). Perhaps the kit fittings are around somewhere or perhaps wasn't needed but #9 is bare bones. Perhaps though one advantage might be the techies can prod it and get to check out the composites etc, without affecting an airworthy machine?

Here's some pics taken late in the day from the recent airshow when it concluded and everyone else was heading home, NH-90 #9 in the AW-109 hanger, NH-90 in front of the new Helicopter Transition Unit hanger and some examples of cargo for you NM :D
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Frankly New Zealand didn't buy a lot of NH90s. Therefore New Zealand didn't get as much bang for the bucks for tools and spares, having to buy a ninth helicopter for a spares hulk. Other nations which bought more were/are able to spread the tools and spares costs out more. I am not so sure if New Zealand had bought Seahawks they would have gotten much of a better lower cost per medium sized helicopter.
Not sure what quotes you are replying to as your answer does not seem to correspond, but I assume you are saying something reference spares for the NH90s. Not to sure it is a major problem just yet as we have just got them with only 2 flying so you would hope they at least have enough to keep 2 brand new helos in the air for now at least. Also seahawks? what do you mean for the navy? again not sure what you are getting at as we would have just bought blackhawks for the air force as their primary customer is army if you mean in lieu of NH90s.

The 9th frame broken down for spares worked out cheaper than buying items seperately and gives the airforce the bonus of an actual spare frame for training, reference and even attrition so I see it as a bonus both financially and operationally.

The media have been bagging the new helos over their stated operating restrictions but going off past media write ups they do tend to exagerate any minor flaw that given time can be rectified, apparently the project protector naval fleet where a big waste of money, guess it depends if you have actually used them or not now and what they replaced/provide.

If the snow operation problem is not rectified there will be alot of unhappy NH90 customers in the northen hemispere(their main users they were mainly built for) so I think NHI will find a soloution.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
More crap from lazy media muppets. This time from a provincial rag right in the NZDF heartland.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/opinion/6873115/New-helicopters-prove-not-much-chop

Lets hope that the locals who know there stuff down there in Palmyland ring this reporter Mr Grocock (name fits eh) and tell him that regurgitating 2 week old Dominion articles that have been totally fisked by the CAF and CDF - is not the way to win a Qantas Media award.

Got an email from this morning saying that there are two options being looked at to replace the C-130's. Mapp was big on the A-400M - the question is if Jonno's still got the old policy godfather whispering in his ear? However the Moneyhawks want the cheapest viable option - C-130J's.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
I think we have to go with the A400, it just makes more sense to me to buy a transporter which can easily accommodate the NH90 and the LAV, buying anything smaller would be foolish. Plus we might be able to pick up some of the excess German A400's cheapish.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think we have to go with the A400, it just makes more sense to me to buy a transporter which can easily accommodate the NH90 and the LAV, buying anything smaller would be foolish. Plus we might be able to pick up some of the excess German A400's cheapish.
Been in to long to know that the moneyhawkes as Mr C calls them will win at the end of the day not only that but they will justify the bare minimum to replace the C130H, for example because the J is more capable than the H they will drop our craft down from 5 to 4 airframes imo I just have a real bad feeling about the next 5 - 10 years.

CD
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Been in to long to know that the moneyhawkes as Mr C calls them will win at the end of the day not only that but they will justify the bare minimum to replace the C130H, for example because the J is more capable than the H they will drop our craft down from 5 to 4 airframes imo I just have a real bad feeling about the next 5 - 10 years.

CD
Or take it a step further and buy 4 (+2or3 more for parts) surplus USAF C-27Js on the basis they can do some of what the C-130J can do and are dirt cheap.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think we have to go with the A400, it just makes more sense to me to buy a transporter which can easily accommodate the NH90 and the LAV, buying anything smaller would be foolish. Plus we might be able to pick up some of the excess German A400's cheapish.
Tactical Loads - Strategic Distances is the mantra that AM Adamson used to preach. The A-400M does that without the need for a further type to do the current B757 role.

I also guess that following the Hollande win in France plus the unresolved Euro Zone debt issues PIIGS - there will be further available A-400M production slots and a Euro currency that will be in not such a strong position as it is today with respect to the Kiwi.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
More crap from lazy media muppets. This time from a provincial rag right in the NZDF heartland.

Editorial: New helicopters prove not much chop | Stuff.co.nz

Lets hope that the locals who know there stuff down there in Palmyland ring this reporter Mr Grocock (name fits eh) and tell him that regurgitating 2 week old Dominion articles that have been totally fisked by the CAF and CDF - is not the way to win a Qantas Media award.

Got an email from this morning saying that there are two options being looked at to replace the C-130's. Mapp was big on the A-400M - the question is if Jonno's still got the old policy godfather whispering in his ear? However the Moneyhawks want the cheapest viable option - C-130J's.
Left an appropriate comment on the article site question the originality of the Oped.

KiwiRob 244736 said:
I think we have to go with the A400, it just makes more sense to me to buy a transporter which can easily accommodate the NH90 and the LAV, buying anything smaller would be foolish. Plus we might be able to pick up some of the excess German A400's cheapish.
In present economic climate A400's are a pipe dream. We'll be lucky to get ;ike for like when they get around to replacing the C130H models. The LEP was a total waste of NZ$250 million that could have been better spent on staged C130Js purchases.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
In present economic climate A400's are a pipe dream. We'll be lucky to get ;ike for like when they get around to replacing the C130H models. The LEP was a total waste of NZ$250 million that could have been better spent on staged C130Js purchases.
But buying the J will also be a waste of money, it can't fit the LAV or NH90. Bigger is better.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
L In present economic climate A400's are a pipe dream. We'll be lucky to get ;ike for like when they get around to replacing the C130H models. The LEP was a total waste of NZ$250 million that could have been better spent on staged C130Js purchases.
I wouldn't go as far as calling the A-400's a pipe dream - that is far too pessimistic Ngati. It all depends on currency projections 8-10 years out with respect to the Euro, the USD, and the Kiwi. When I look at the political economy of the Euro Zone with respect to the USD it is my view that the USD will likely appreciate against the Euro over the next 10 years and the Kiwi likely to strengthen against the Euro and remain nuetral to the USD long term. The fact that we are currently pretty much the opposite of what the Eurozone are doing in a macro sense 2009-2014 will mean by 2017-2022 the Kiwi will be more competitive in purchasing terms per the Euro.

At the end of the day the following people will make the real decision (if they are still around to do so in 2015) - Key and Joyce (K2) primarily, with the PM's CoS Wayne Eagleson (K3), Bill English and Treasury, the head of ODESC, the DefMin, and the CDF (in order of current influence).

I left out MFAT but would leave them last in current influence anyway as they are being cut back. About time too with NZ having more diplomats than India and that they have already did the job in getting H1 and H2 there cushy UN jobs so we don't need so many of them!
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A change of topic and looking at the SH2G(NZ) Seasprite problem. The S70 Seahawks that the RAN are going to offload in the near future. On the http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/nh-90-mh-60r-ran-11694/ thread it has been stated that the Seahawks have low hours on them. I realise that there are 16 of them, but would it be a viable option for the NZDF to acquire say ten, operate eight and cannibalise the other two as spares? That would give us say ten or 15 years max capability with a known aircraft and would give us time to source a replacement in the long term. This would not be an orphan platform.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I think we have to go with the A400, it just makes more sense to me to buy a transporter which can easily accommodate the NH90 and the LAV, buying anything smaller would be foolish. Plus we might be able to pick up some of the excess German A400's cheapish.
Agreed, while new Js would solve some problems such as reliability and obsolesence the major issues such as in-house LAV/NH90, and other outsized loads transport will still be unresolved therefore will continue to be deficiancies within our defence force.

May as well solve the problem now while we are on the topic instead of maintaining the issue for another 30(or in our case 50) years regardless if it is going to cost more initially.

With the financial problems being felt everywhere including europe surely a bargain(ish) bin could be found somewhere. Could be a good time to source some other problem area equipment as well from forces trying to down size/cutback/dispose of, may have to take a hit now to set us up for the future, but in my veiw will be well worth the effort.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Jeez that was an appalling editorial from the Manawatu Standard (mind you even more appalling was the hot air being generated by the Greens calling for a Select Committee enquiry - they could save the taxpayer much time and effort by simply reading the official reports that have explained the delays and costs - which are inclusive of training, a simulator, spares and support over a number of years etc). Unfortunately Mathew Grocott parrots the Greens as being some sort of authority on Defence & procurement, which is an oxymoron in itself (imagine Defence commenting on environmental issues with any authority).

But what was more interesting about the editorial was the informed comments (and nice one NM)! One commentator states authoritatively:

"Since the requirements for what eventually became the NH-90, we signed an agreement to utilise the RAAF C-17's - far more suitable for moving the NH-90 where we actually want them. With this arrangement in place its no wonder the requirement to fit into a C-130 was seen as minor".

If this is the case then this solves some of the issues being brought up i.e. gives the NZDF and NZG time to work through the options (eg A400 timing) plus the on-going assessment of where NZ's air lift contribution fits into the wider ANZAC planning.

Also, whether it's just me, but I would have thought Defence would have a realitively easy job of selling greater airlift (airframes and capabilities) with the likes of the 3K's (who can better see the practical, political & foreign policy realities with their overseas counterparts, in both military and civil terms eg disaster relief, over the Treasury moneyhawks). I think what will also swing it for Defence is this greater ANZAC cooperation and the increasing US Asia-Pacific engagement. NZDF and NZG needs to offer credible and reliable contributions and that means more airframes to better manage the training, deployment and maintenance tempos.

However the bottomline will be funding of course (and what gets sacrificed to allow for a better X, Y and Z instead etc). With Defence reinvesting its savings to acquire new equipment (without any new funding), whilst this is positive for Defence to not lose the savings as such, I think this is where things will start to fall down pretty soon, if not already, in that years of having to come up with a target of $300-400M/annum surely cannot be feasible for an underfunded Defence Force anyway (and one which has capital charges deducted from its funding vote).

With the NZG still targeting 2014/15 to balance its books, and with the next Defence Whitepaper expected around 2015, I think 2015 will present a welcome opportunity to lobby NZG to provide additional capital injection funding post 2015. Otherwise more projects will be be delayed whilst savings are being sought to release project funding and we might reach the same ridiculous situation post 1990 cut backs that saw NZDF facing massive re-capitalisation investment all coming to a head, which even now has only been partially solved (and in some cases somewhat dubiously if one thinks about the "upgrade" projects eg C-130H LEP).
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I see that the US House Armed Services Committee has denied the USAF the ability to use any money to retire or divest, or prepare to divest or retire the C27J from service in 2013.
Under Air Force provisions, the committee denied the service the ability to use any money in 2013 “to divest or retire, or prepare to divest or retire,” C-27J aircraft. A series of reporting requirements after 2013 would need to be met before the aircraft could be disposed of, including an affordable spending analysis for the plane’s operation by the Air National Guard. HASC Adds $2.8 Billion to Procurement Request | Defense News | defensenews.com
So it looks like the USAF political manouvering to kill the program originally initiated by the US Army has come back to bite them in the arse. Good thing. So technically we can still get the C27J thru the FMS and be able tap into the USAF / US ANG spares logistics tail etc., especially as we all pretty good mates again. However I note on the RAAF thread that the on again off again ADF 10 x C27J buy was US$ 900 million with about 400 million of that being fees etc., having to be paid to the USAF for administration charges etc., in processing the FMS purchase.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Lobbying Recce - that is the No1 answer and you are exactly right about the timing between now and the next white paper in 3 years. The VfM exercise in my view cannot be sustained longer than 2015. Procrastination is no longer an option and by 2015 we would have had a full generation of it when it comes to defence. If the economy is beginning to lift by then - I cannot foresee a better time to finally put the NZDF shop in order and be given the right tools for the future ahead. We can only do that by capital injections - in fact without capital injections the whole edifice of Kiwi defence policy would seriously become non-viable within a few short years.

Full marks to those 4 good people posting strong lucid fact based counter opinions online to the Manawatu Standard. Great post on there Ngati by the way!!
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
A change of topic and looking at the SH2G(NZ) Seasprite problem. The S70 Seahawks that the RAN are going to offload in the near future. On the http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/nh-90-mh-60r-ran-11694/ thread it has been stated that the Seahawks have low hours on them. I realise that there are 16 of them, but would it be a viable option for the NZDF to acquire say ten, operate eight and cannibalise the other two as spares? That would give us say ten or 15 years max capability with a known aircraft and would give us time to source a replacement in the long term. This would not be an orphan platform.
I am a bit worried about the cockpit upgrade required to do this. The spectre of another Sprite(A) immediately rears its head in my imagination. Zero limiting the airframe is do-able but its that cockpit upgrade and systems integration that gives me the heebie geebies. I'm open to convincing though .....
 

htbrst

Active Member
"Since the requirements for what eventually became the NH-90, we signed an agreement to utilise the RAAF C-17's - far more suitable for moving the NH-90 where we actually want them. With this arrangement in place its no wonder the requirement to fit into a C-130 was seen as minor".
I vaguely recall this being discussed at the same time we agreed to support the RAN via the use of HMNZS Canterbury while they were a bit short on transport ships given some of the maintenence issues they were having with HMAS Tobruk et al prior to the arrival of HMAS Choules.

I couldn't find anything specific but here is a news article that seems to support that the discussions were on at about the same time:

NZ, Australia to set up crisis response centre - World - NZ Herald News
"New Zealand and Australia will set up a new crisis centre to manage joint responses to natural disasters.

Their response force will initially be based around HMNZS Canterbury, a 9000-tonne, multi-role ship which is the only major asset of that kind available to either country.

Planning will also include greater co-ordination of airlift capabilities, including New Zealand and Australian C130 Hercules and Australia's giant C17 Globemasters....."
 
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