Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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John Newman
The Bunker Group
I hope the purchase comes up at a Senate Estimates hearing, and all the right questions get asked.
I'd love to hear the justifications and reasons for the purchase and why Defence is parting with $130m out of its budget allocation on behalf of Customs.
Shame, I was hoping to have uncovered some dodgy government conspiracy, I would assume somehow he is involved however being the minister responsible for new vessels and the Australian Customs.
/jack nicholson voice on
you couldn't handle the truth...
/jack nicholson voice off
thats why god invented senate estimates
Tee_Centre_10
Member
It seems Smith and Defence was asked by the Canberra Times about the Skandi Bergen as well as some pointed questions about the current woes of the Tobruk and the Success.
Their reply is that Success has had shaft alignment problems for over 10 years. Attempts to rectify the problems only managed the issue and not fix it. They don't say whether the double-hull conversion worsened the issue, but that the current repairs are an attempt at a long-term fix and will cost $4.1m.
The recent repairs to the Tobruk since 2011 have cost $20.6m and she is planned to be operational in May. Her planned retirement is still set for 2014.
Their reply is that Success has had shaft alignment problems for over 10 years. Attempts to rectify the problems only managed the issue and not fix it. They don't say whether the double-hull conversion worsened the issue, but that the current repairs are an attempt at a long-term fix and will cost $4.1m.
The recent repairs to the Tobruk since 2011 have cost $20.6m and she is planned to be operational in May. Her planned retirement is still set for 2014.
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- #8,486
Many thanks for the link, this is perhaps the funniest and most pathetic reply we've provided to a story, and to say its a load of shite is really poor argument.
Its no surprise to see the minister cover his arse, but as a serving sailor its disappointing to see the CN tow the line and criticise the article. If he thinks the purchase was correct, hes either being fooled by a political wolf, or is in denial.
The great part of all this, and the problem that i see, is that at no stage has anyone said customs will purchase it off defence, after only 18mths of service in the RAN. If this was being used in that time in the same role OP provided (political arse covering for the lack of ships available to train seaman on) then thats fine because we've accepted that we now have 6 Anzacs in the australian fleet, and we eagerly await the decommissioning of them so that we can cancel the hopes of bringing them both (HMAS Arunta and Stuart) back into service.
$130 million is more then enough to bring both these ships back into service after some much needed repairs(Stuart was swapped with Anzac as FFH150 was in better shape then FFH153, with the issues shes having thats sad). For those who point out im shifting money from amphib force to surface combatant, its because i regard HMAS Skandi bergden as a waste of time, money and most importantly, credibility.
The issues with Success, and its price for repair are highly inaccurate. As of this week, and as announced to the crew, she is expected to sail again for excercises where she is drastically needed, and then go into deep maintanence. for those unsure how long that is, the last ships to go into deep maintance were Tobruk, Manoora and Kanimbla...thats the state its in. For a ship to be alongside for so long, and to be repaired will cost more then the stated $4.1 million...add a Zero in there somewhere and you will be closer to the mark. Also take note this ship was initially to be replaced by 2015, until that was pushed back, and there was a reason this date was set. you could spend two years repairing this ship before sailing, but its still going to be a old ship in dire need of replacement, a shame for a ship with a long and outstanding service to be bandaged and run into the ground.
If you go onto tobruk, you can see the state she is in. For a first world navy, this is a second world ship brinking on fire sale...or catching fire, it really is poor. The RFA decommissioned her sister ships, the sir galahads for the Bay class. We purchased largs bay to back it up as the 40 year old ships we had we beyond repair, and tobruk was always in a worse material state then either LPA.
it's a "protect the boss" issue....
pity it doesn't swing the other way - eg ADFA boss....
peterAustralia
Member
I know I am beating my own drum here, final post on this, I promise,
but is there any chance of australia getting patrol boats in the 500t - 600t range
here is one
Esmeralda class - Helicopter Database
however it has ssm (four exocets) , sea sparrow (8 cell launcher), two sets of triple torpedo tubes, 76mm gun and twin 40mm.
An australian patrol boat would have a much more limited armanent, a single 25mm cannon (two at most) thus saving a lot of weight in armaments and sensors, thus a lot less topweight. I do realise that they want RIBs, but my guess is that they would weigh a lot, lot less than all the armaments and senors that were removed.
I have known about this particular patrol boat/corvette for almost 30 years, I do realise that putting all that armament on a small hull is a bit silly, however removing a lot of the weapons, should lighten it up, and allow for an overall smaller boat, should be able to get down to 600t, and still retain the heli pad and RIBs.
Being a larger boat than the Armidale class, seakeeping would be improved (assuming topweight is kept low) and range at 2300nm at 18 knots seems reasonable. Plus they are in steel, should have a longer structual life. Less weapons systems means less maintenance and thus lower operating costs.
There are many many navies operating very similar ships (albeit most have SSMs), thus this is a proven hull platform.
but is there any chance of australia getting patrol boats in the 500t - 600t range
here is one
Esmeralda class - Helicopter Database
however it has ssm (four exocets) , sea sparrow (8 cell launcher), two sets of triple torpedo tubes, 76mm gun and twin 40mm.
An australian patrol boat would have a much more limited armanent, a single 25mm cannon (two at most) thus saving a lot of weight in armaments and sensors, thus a lot less topweight. I do realise that they want RIBs, but my guess is that they would weigh a lot, lot less than all the armaments and senors that were removed.
I have known about this particular patrol boat/corvette for almost 30 years, I do realise that putting all that armament on a small hull is a bit silly, however removing a lot of the weapons, should lighten it up, and allow for an overall smaller boat, should be able to get down to 600t, and still retain the heli pad and RIBs.
Being a larger boat than the Armidale class, seakeeping would be improved (assuming topweight is kept low) and range at 2300nm at 18 knots seems reasonable. Plus they are in steel, should have a longer structual life. Less weapons systems means less maintenance and thus lower operating costs.
There are many many navies operating very similar ships (albeit most have SSMs), thus this is a proven hull platform.
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- #8,489
Way way too old, and not quite what we are looking for. Its built around the same time as the fremantles, which are the predecessors to the current Armidales. our priority is a small armament, as its main role will be border protection and illegal immigration/fisherman. We have frigates for "war like" defending of the borders, not that we are concerned at this time with such issues. The next patrol boat/corvette, will require a helicopter landing pad, hanger optional or makeshift. It will most likely come from a competition between local shipyards and design, as the smaller vessels tend to be part of a belief we can design below 1000t, although with the issues armidales have and Huons long noted problems, then its more a thought that we can afford to repair them.
This is the most disappointing report that I have read regarding Navy's leadership.
I know he's echoing his Minister's actions but its a bitter blow to those whom he leads.
There has always been a malaise at the senior ranks of the Australian services. We are so small that the few who rise to the top inevitably become political hacks rather than profession of arms leaders and strategists. Their servants and masters become the politicians of the day rather than the men and women they represent.
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It was for this very reason that I left the RAN in 1981 when Navy meekly gave up all seaborne air capability and we went from the bottom of the first division of world navies to the middle of the third division! At the time it appeared to this ASW specialist that not one senior officer put up a fight
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weegee
Active Member
By the sound of it and the direction the navy seems to be taking getting 20 corvette type vessels will a long shot at best? how does 20 tinnies sound with sling shots? especially if we could unload them onto the fisheries department after 18months to fill the hole in their budget? Sorry for being stupid but it is REALLY DEPRESSING to me to see what seems to be happening with our defence dept at the moment, and this is only from an observer I can only imagine what its like as an employee. 
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I share your depression. As a naval history enthusiast it is sad to see history repeating itself. The RAN has been through this before just as things had seemed to be going well. It brings back to me the cuts in the early 50s just a few years after a major build up had been projected. 1 Daring, 2 Type 12s and other smaller craft were cancelled, the modernization program was pruned and a decision was taken to operate just one operational carrier instead of two (Sydney and Vengeance actually operated together in one exercise in what was probably the FAAs peak).By the sound of it and the direction the navy seems to be taking getting 20 corvette type vessels will a long shot at best? how does 20 tinnies sound with sling shots? especially if we could unload them onto the fisheries department after 18months to fill the hole in their budget? Sorry for being stupid but it is REALLY DEPRESSING to me to see what seems to be happening with our defence dept at the moment, and this is only from an observer I can only imagine what its like as an employee.
Are we moving permanently to a force of just 9 surface combatants (3 AWDs and 6 FFHs) and will we ever see both LHDs deployed operationally at the same time? What is the chance that we will get 8 Anzac replacements and the projected12 new submarines? I feel very pessimistic about all these questions.
Tas
weegee
Active Member
The only hope I have is that Mr Swan is putting ridiculous pressure on everyone so he can get his surplus! Hopefully once the surplus is back we will see some him relax the purse strings and the other 2 anzac's back in operation and all other proposed purchases go through although I highly doubt it.
Get thee to an Optomitrist ASAP old son, that is no "greyhound of the seas"...
Functional it may be but I don't think it can ever be described as pretty... unless that word is followed by ugly. I mean the helipad perched where it is...That's not even close to putting lipstick on a pig - more like putting braces on one.
I'd say what we get will be somewhere between the Austral MRV80, the Spanish BAM & the Protector class OPV. If we continue in the same direction they'll be armed with portable sling shots, run on solar power & be made of recycled tissue paper.
Yes perhaps that was a bit of an understatement, compared to the two hulks they have up the top end though it will be more of a looker. Still surprised they put them there in full view of the Opera House. I guess with the big crane at the back they cannot move the helipad like the Royal Navy did with HMS Protector, none the less it is still probably safer than the Sirius’.
First pass for SEA 1180 which will approve the capability requirement (which will cover such things as sling shots and sails) isn’t due until at least 2015. Now I don’t know about you but I’m a card carrying member of the ALP and even I don’t think Labor has a 0.005% chance of winning the next federal election ;-)I'd say what we get will be somewhere between the Austral MRV80, the Spanish BAM & the Protector class OPV. If we continue in the same direction they'll be armed with portable sling shots, run on solar power & be made of recycled tissue paper.
So methinks there will be a different in government around when SEA 1180 gets its approved capability requirement. Of course the good Dr. Jensen could be MINDEF under an Abbott Government in which case SEA 1180 first pass approval could be defined as an Air Power Australia mini carrier for the F-111S strike aircraft.
Dr. Jensen! Lookout F-35! Here comes the RAAF F-22!
I've got a plan, lets get Bomber Beazley to do a Campbell Newman and take over as labor leader prior to the election.
How did we arrive here!!!
. It's funny how to make the government omelet work, the opposition have made the people believe that they can without cracking the egg. And now breaking eggs is a sin. Dr. Jensen is hilarious isn't he. But people believe that T abbots togs have Mylar linings and Julia is the original "Scarlet Lady".
So why have you guys been busting Stephen Smith balls? I mean as a outsider it seems he's made a pretty good go of defense. Some really good aquisitions of late successfully executed Choules, MH 60R *24, foot up butt of some suppliers and others, all plans for our hardened army going well, others I can think of. The only sin I can see has been ADFA affair.
And as the father of three daughters, I don't have a issue with his response to the incident. And it would be pricless comedy if Dr. Jensen was able to can the F35.
Unfortunate times for the country either way we jump
. It's funny how to make the government omelet work, the opposition have made the people believe that they can without cracking the egg. And now breaking eggs is a sin. Dr. Jensen is hilarious isn't he. But people believe that T abbots togs have Mylar linings and Julia is the original "Scarlet Lady".So why have you guys been busting Stephen Smith balls? I mean as a outsider it seems he's made a pretty good go of defense. Some really good aquisitions of late successfully executed Choules, MH 60R *24, foot up butt of some suppliers and others, all plans for our hardened army going well, others I can think of. The only sin I can see has been ADFA affair.
And as the father of three daughters, I don't have a issue with his response to the incident. And it would be pricless comedy if Dr. Jensen was able to can the F35.
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