Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Tasman]

A lot the questions I wanted to pose were answered in the newspaper article, a political solution, nothing else.

I thought if Customs really needed it, why didn't "they" buy it and lease it back to the Navy if and when necessary.

Why does Navy have to cough up $130m+ for a ship that it will have for a couple of years at the most? Is the Navy going to have any of the $130m, that I assume has come out of its budget, realocated back after the transfer? Answer, probably not!

The only rational reason for choosing Skandi Bergen would be that Customs are happy with the its leased sister ship. It is certainly not an amphibious ship! So the suggestion that the Minister has diverted navy money to prop up customs (with a lame excuse about disaster relief) seems close to the mark. The civilian crewing arrangement which seems crazy for an amphibious unit will be fine for BPC when the ship transfers but what a pity it will take away $130m from an already ridiculously tight naval budget. The Chief of Navy must be tearing his hair out...

Tas

 

[Vanguard]

We could get 52,000 tinnys for the same price, and it would be a hell of alot more effective then the frigging thing

As in this? I fully agree.

 

[ThePuss]

hhhhhhhh

 

[Worklaw]

Why

I have been following this blog for some months now. Excellent.
Can some one explain to me why there is not proper planninng regarding the vessels we use. Surely there must be a plan to replace vessels in a timely manner?

 

[ASSAIL]

Well I'm stunned ........cked and amazed that this went on the RAN's capital account. This is madness and who is being held to account? If the purchase is not bad enough then the ongoing costs and command issues open up a complete dog box.
1. Is the civilian Master required to comply with the NDA and obey all lawful commands from his superior officers and will he answer to Chief of Navy or his rep?
2. Can the ship be tasked to all relevant RAN operations and who will train the MUA deck officers in ADF procedures?
3. Will the ongoing horrific crew costs (2 x crews at least) be against the RAN personnel budget for the interim period before the ship reverts to Customs? (Seagoing Industry Award MA 0000122).
3. What role does this ship carry out while it awaits a natural disaster?

These are only a few of the questions I can conjure up after a bottle of fine wine on a Sunday afternoon. Talk about being totally cheesed off

 

[Vanguard]

I have been following this blog for some months now. Excellent.
Can some one explain to me why there is not proper planninng regarding the vessels we use. Surely there must be a plan to replace vessels in a timely manner?

When you have a government that consists of the Green Party, regularly rotating Defence Materiels Ministers and a bloke like Stephen Smith as Defence Minister things like that get ignored. Really we should have either ordered a Cantabria from Spain, they are building one at the moment designed for the JCI, or gone with Britain (& the Kiwis) for their Korean ships by now but obviously the gov't has other priorities.

 

[John Newman]

I have been following this blog for some months now. Excellent.
Can some one explain to me why there is not proper planninng regarding the vessels we use. Surely there must be a plan to replace vessels in a timely manner?

Welcome, There are others here who are obviously more qualified to answer your question than me, but here goes....

There are planned projects to replace ships (and other ADF equipment), have a look at the defence.gov.au website, have a look under publications and look at the Defence Capability Plan (the DCP).

It lists all the current projects for the ADF.

There are future plans for the replacement of the Collins subs, the ANZAC frigates, the patrol boats and others smaller ships with the OPV's, the Heavy Landing craft, etc, etc.

Currently the AWD's are under construction and the LHD's are under construction, but sometimes ships don't make the distance, as in the case of the LPA's, which I assume you may be referring to??

It had been planned that the LPA's would last (which they didn't) the distance till the LHD's, Canberra and Adelaide, arrived, and the government/navy was caught with their pants down 18mths ago.

Hence the purchase of Choules to fill the gap till the LHD's.

But yes, politics and changes of circumstances/requirements do get in the way and replacement does drag on and on.

Not just in the Navy but across the whole of the ADF (you just have to look at how long the Caribou replacement saga has been dragging on!!)

 

[Vanguard]

Well I'm stunned ........cked and amazed that this went on the RAN's capital account. This is madness and who is being held to account? If the purchase is not bad enough then the ongoing costs and command issues open up a complete dog box.
1. Is the civilian Master required to comply with the NDA and obey all lawful commands from his superior officers and will he answer to Chief of Navy or his rep?
2. Can the ship be tasked to all relevant RAN operations and who will train the MUA deck officers in ADF procedures?
3. Will the ongoing horrific crew costs (2 x crews at least) be against the RAN personnel budget for the interim period before the ship reverts to Customs? (Seagoing Industry Award MA 0000122).
3. What role does this ship carry out while it awaits a natural disaster?

These are only a few of the questions I can conjure up after a bottle of fine wine on a Sunday afternoon. Talk about being totally cheesed off

1. I would assume so unless he decides to disobey orders to preserve the ship, i.e. not going into a hostile area or into dangerous waters (i.e. into the red zone of flooded coastlines). He will probably answer to his rep with the naval officer on board representing naval command - that is a guess though.

2. There are no relevant operations this can fulfill.

3. It sits in Sydney harbour looking pretty, and we thought the cruise liners took up to much room in our base.

 

[icelord]

Well I'm stunned ........cked and amazed that this went on the RAN's capital account. This is madness and who is being held to account? If the purchase is not bad enough then the ongoing costs and command issues open up a complete dog box.
1. Is the civilian Master required to comply with the NDA and obey all lawful commands from his superior officers and will he answer to Chief of Navy or his rep?
2. Can the ship be tasked to all relevant RAN operations and who will train the MUA deck officers in ADF procedures?
3. Will the ongoing horrific crew costs (2 x crews at least) be against the RAN personnel budget for the interim period before the ship reverts to Customs? (Seagoing Industry Award MA 0000122).
3. What role does this ship carry out while it awaits a natural disaster?

These are only a few of the questions I can conjure up after a bottle of fine wine on a Sunday afternoon. Talk about being totally cheesed off

5* can the ship ignore maritime law when a distress call is made, much like military can do when other tasking takes priority(although this is rarely conducted, that we are aware of...)

As for question 3B it will be utilised for training much like OP and windimere were, as we dont have enough ships at sea to train crew...which leads me to my angriest point, $130 million is more then enough to get 2 Anzacs out of mothball(sorry, extended readiness) and have it fully crewed...WTF!?!?!?!

As in this? I fully agree.

I was thinking more this
Redirect Notice

 

[Sea Toby]

For AUD 130 million, the government could have bought two NZ OPVs. Well, surely close to two. If the government is going to waste this much, spending a little more for something useful isn't a problem. But I am sure spending this much to start funding construction of a new AOR would be better if HMAS Success is a goner.

 

[Vanguard]

I was thinking more this
Redirect Notice

That would follow the policy of supporting the Auto industry, chances are though there would be cost cutting measures and they would end up being made of Great Walls.

Seriously though - so many other viable options that have be missed.

 

[Jezza]

How much are these... [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Jun_Bong_class_LST"]Go Jun Bong class LST - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Would of been more inline with naval activity. rather than the Skandi Bergen

 

[ASSAIL]

As for question 3B it will be utilised for training much like OP and windimere were, as we dont have enough ships at sea to train crew[/QUOTERedirect Notice[/url]

Sure, we can train them to be Customs crew and then they can then leave and join the CMU at much better pay and conditions than the RAN.
I'm sure that Ops and Weapons training can wait until all the ANZACs have all been mothballed (its budget time you know!) when its subsequently no longer needed!

Enough venting of spleen, I can now finish that bottle of wine.

 

[t68]

If what they are doing is correct using RAN funds to bolster another area in the long term and using the amphibious shortfall as a excuse, than why haven’t they put the MV Skandi Bergen on lease and build redundancy into the Australian Customs and Border Protection to supplement the RAN in a time of need, after all both serve at the pleasure of Her Majesty Australian Government providing the same service of border protection.

Using MV Skandi Bergen as guide in displacement she is not far of an Endurance class LPD, whilst having the well dock will be beneficial to the RAN but I would imagine that it would not really be useful to Customs. Building 2 ice strengthened Endurance class without the well dock but keeping the bow doors and a stern ramp available would enhance AusGov to assist in resupplying the Antarctica mission whilst patrolling the southern ocean and have the ability to provide humanitarian assistance within the region if the RAN found themselves short at a time of need, yes they would more expensive than the 130 million but would provide another construction program in Australia with perhaps Forgacs shipyard in Newcastle who built both HMAS Jervis Bay and Tobruk at the Carrington slip.

 

[Vanguard]

How much are these... Go Jun Bong class LST - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would of been more inline with naval activity. rather than the Skandi Bergen

Pretty cheap I would say, the larger Indian Shardul class go for about $100mil, so these are probably around the $60mil mark considering western tech but being built by the Koreans who are quick in this field.

 

[Tasman]

$130 million is more then enough to get 2 Anzacs out of mothball(sorry, extended readiness) and have it fully crewed...WTF!?!?!?!

But the Anzacs have guns and missiles... I get the impression that this Minister would prefer a navy manned largely by civilians and armed with non lethal weapons like water cannon - or is a water cannon too dangerous? He seems to have trouble relating to ADF personnel (especially senior officers) so he may be happier if more of our ships are manned by civilians and if the primary role of the navy is changed to providing disaster and humanitarian relief along with border protection. Perhaps he would prefer a coast guard rather than a navy.

Sorry - I'm feeling decidedly miffed by where this minister seems to be taking the RAN...

Tas

 

[StingrayOZ]

Pretty cheap I would say, the larger Indian Shardul class go for about $100mil, so these are probably around the $60mil mark considering western tech but being built by the Koreans who are quick in this field.

Are any of these hulls available for purchase right now? We could afford them, but we also need them right now. Or at the very lease a super early build slot.

I wonder about what we would have to offer for an Albion or Galacia, perhaps even on a lease. At least for a stop gap. It cost the Uk 20,000,000 pounds to keep the Albion in near ready. Why not lease it to us for 5 years instead? In the mean time we could get an asian or spanish hull build with local fitout.

I don't think there were many people on either side of government pushing for more combat capability. Rudd was a big supporter of that, so I can see anyone in labor going down that road unless Rudd is in charge again.

RAN can't afford to be too picky, at least make them get proper amphibious ships and not dinky bath toys. I wonder if they have gone looking at old many ferries yet? Green and yellow could be the new colour of our new combined Navy/Coast Guard/Manly ferry service. Paying customers will help subsidise getting some sailors "sea" time.

 

[Vanguard]

We saw with the Largs Bay the sort of competition there is for amphibious assault ships at the moment between non-producing states, primarily from those who were also caught up in the Newport situation like Chile (Who now have the Foudre) as well as others desperate to expand like Brazil. In terms of ships available used there are very few and in many cases they would be a big gamble, i.e. the second Foudre class, especially seeing as American ships are out of the question.

In my view though we need AOR over AAS with the Success situation at present, many modern ships are able to fill both roles - the RFA Fort George has done humanitarian before, carries Marines and Helicopters and is possibly available as a short term option. If I were the Minister right now I would be doing some sort of deal with Britain, leasing the RFA Fort George and signing up with them to get ships from Korea as a long term replacement (Possibly with NZ). Option B for a new ship is Spain who are building the Cantabria (sp?) class which is designed for cooperation with the JCI but would solely be a long term option as they having nothing for now which is when we need it.

 

[ASSAIL]

I think we need to maintain perspective on this thread. Its not about what may be nice to have and I agree there are many scenarios that can be voiced.

The travesty imposed on the RAN by Smith is simply that; there was no requirement in the DCP, it seems there was no advocacy by either Navy or Defence to purchase it and the ship simply does not fit any force structure.
As others have stated, if the ship was leased/purchased by CMU or AMSA and used for patrols South of 48 degs (see SEA 1180 geographical limits) there would be no controversy. He simply seems to have gone out of his way to antagonise the RAN

Can anyone offer an explanation for Smith's actions in purchasing it?

 

[Vanguard]

The travesty imposed on the RAN by Smith is simply that; there was no requirement in the DCP, it seems there was no advocacy by either Navy or Defence to purchase it and the ship simply does not fit any force structure.
As others have stated, if the ship was leased/purchased by CMU or AMSA and used for patrols South of 48 degs (see SEA 1180 geographical limits) there would be no controversy. He simply seems to have gone out of his way to antagonise the RAN

Can anyone offer an explanation for Smith's actions in purchasing it?

I’ve got it, it was not Smith at all. Since the first of March Jason Clare has been the Minister for Defence Materiel (His second term) whilst he also holds the portfolios of Minister of Justice and Minister of Home Affairs the latter holding jurisdiction over the Australian Customs fleet, he’s simply shifted the money from one of his budgets to the other.