Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The big question is what would have replaced the Implacables as they reached the end of their service lives during the late 70’s early 80’s. I can not think of a single realistic option.
Maybe the RAN would have been able to combine with the RN as a partner in the cancelled CVA-01 project. With the RAN also looking for a replacement carrier the CVA-01 just might have been saved. The Australian ship could have come in at the end of the RN production run designed to replace Ark Royal, Eagle, Victorious and Hermes in the early 1970s. The mid 1970s American Midway sized CVV proposal would have been a great carrier for any navy other than the USN but like the CVA-01 it was never ordered (the USN convincing the US government to order more CVNs instead).

However, even if they had been built, both the CVA-01 and CVV required crews in excess of 3000 which would have put huge strain on the RAN.

Tas
 

weegee

Active Member
Garden Island

Looks like Mr Smith has told Mr O'Farrell to get stuffed, that Garden Island is for the Navy and that's it! Here Here so It should be as well.
Here's an idea how about the state government put's it's hands in it's own pockets and pays to have some cruise ship infrastructure built if it is so important to the NSW economy instead of trying to mooch of the Navy's facilities.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe the RAN would have been able to combine with the RN as a partner in the cancelled CVA-01 project. With the RAN also looking for a replacement carrier the CVA-01 just might have been saved. The Australian ship could have come in at the end of the RN production run designed to replace Ark Royal, Eagle, Victorious and Hermes in the early 1970s. The mid 1970s American Midway sized CVV proposal would have been a great carrier for any navy other than the USN but like the CVA-01 it was never ordered (the USN convincing the US government to order more CVNs instead).

However, even if they had been built, both the CVA-01 and CVV required crews in excess of 3000 which would have put huge strain on the RAN.

Tas
A conventional variant of Charles De Gaulle may have been an option if the Implacables could have been life extended into the 90s. Otherwise the National Archives records Abe found suggested a new build Essex as one of the options for the RAN in the 60s so could conceivably still have been a possibility for the late 70s early 80s. IZAR also had a design (BSAC 220) that could have fit the requirement of a RAN Implacable replacement although it would likely be too late to be viable.

Revista Naval

A bit of an off the wall option could have been a CTOL design based on Invincible. Stretched and fitted with an angled deck, cats, traps and COSAG say a double up of Bristols (Type 82) propulsion system.

The biggest issue would likely have been the need for replacement falling when the Australian economy was screwed.
 
I’m slowly going though the excellent photo stream of Kokkaburra2011 at Flickr:

Flickr: Kookaburra2011's Photostream
It is a must bookmark for anyone interested in the history of the RAN (and pre-Fed colonial fleets) as well as close allies such as RN, RNZN and USN.

What makes it better is that it isn't just a Tumbler-like account where interesting photos are reposted from other accounts. He does original research and publishes high-resolution images from public and private collections, as well as images given to him by private individuals.

In particular, there have been some great images scanned from the museum collection at HMAS Cerberus. Makes you wonder what else is out there in the various base/unit museums and collections that hasn't been scanned yet for wider viewing.

Great stuff, well worth the time to go through the entire collection.


Link to Cruise Ship Access to Garden Island report.

It was inevitable that the report would come to the conclusions that it does, as there is no way that FBE could function with the kinds of disruption that the cruise ships cause.
What was good is that the language was so strong against ANY access other than the rare birthing by QM2 type visits. It could have been a weak and limp "we don't think it is a good idea"-type of report that would leave the issue open to ongoing whinging and lobbying.
 
Last edited:

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
It is a must bookmark for anyone interested in the history of the RAN (and pre-Fed colonial fleets) as well as close allies such as RN, RNZN and USN.

What makes it better is that it isn't just a Tumbler-like account where interesting photos are reposted from other accounts. He does original research and publishes high-resolution images from public and private collections, as well as images given to him by private individuals.

In particular, there have been some great images scanned from the museum collection at HMAS Cerberus. Makes you wonder what else is out there in the various base/unit museums ancome across while browsingd collections that hasn't been scanned yet for wider viewing.

Great stuff, well worth the time to go through the entire collection.
I think it is one of the best photo sources on the web for anyone interested in Australian naval history. I've used it a lot to help identify the names of ships on some of the thousands of photos in our collection at the Tasmanian Maritime Museum.

BTW we've recently completed documenting naval ship visits to Hobart except for a gap re visits made during WW2. Because of wartime censorship we have not been able to find port records for that period. We do have info re some visits like that of Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth when they were operating as troopships but the 1939/45 records are certainly not complete. If any DT members have access to these records or can suggest where they might be found I would be pleased to hear from you.


Tas
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Link to Cruise Ship Access to Garden Island report.

It was inevitable that the report would come to the conclusions that it does, as there is no way that FBE could function with the kinds of disruption that the cruise ships cause.
What was good is that the language was so strong against ANY access other than the rare birthing by QM2 type visits. It could have been a weak and limp "we don't think it is a good idea"-type of report that would leave the issue open to ongoing whinging and lobbying.
I could not see how the report could rationally come to any other conclusion but I was scared that it might...

Good to see common sense prevail.

Tas
 
BTW we've recently completed documenting naval ship visits to Hobart except for a gap re visits made during WW2. Because of wartime censorship we have not been able to find port records for that period. We do have info re some visits like that of Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth when they were operating as troopships but the 1939/45 records are certainly not complete. If any DT members have access to these records or can suggest where they might be found I would be pleased to hear from you.
Publicly available records perhaps, but surely the ADF would have those records in their historical archives? There would have been a RAN Port War Signal Station or a NOIC in Hobart, and there also would have been an examination battery (was it at Fort Direction) who would have unit records. The ADF would provide access to reserchers.
 
According to the equally excellent Oz At War site, there was a PWSS in Hobart so there would be naval records of all movements into and out of Hobart. I was sure there would have been because Hobart is a big port, and the site says it is RAN Station 221 at South Arm, isn't that Fort Direction?

Interestingly there is another option for research listed on the site, in the "Tasmanian Coast Watching Organisation". Their records or unit diary might help, especially Station 223 (Bruny Island).

EDIT: I had a look at the AWM site for unit diaries (they have a scanning project under way), but for the RAN they refer you to the Navy website which is not helpful.
However I did notice that the Navy site has PDFs of merchant ship movement records during WW2. Not what you want, but I thought I'd bring it to your attention in case it is helpful in other ways.
The bad news is the format. It is by ship name, so for any search for Hobart as origin/destination you'd have to systematically look through everything. Urgh!
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Great link thanks Abe, it will keep me occupied while on sick kid duty today.
Been there done that, so good luck with that! Some interesting ideas here to ponder.

The Hellcats and Avengers would have ideal for the Implacables though would have been due for replacement by Korea. Maybe a Colossus / Majestic or even an Illustrious (or Indomitable), I imagine an Essex would have encountered the same US Dollar issues you mentioned, could have been leased during that conflict, and then retained to cover the modernisation of the Implacables to operate modern aircraft and maybe into the 60s as a training ship / fast troop transport.
The Implacable could serve through Korea. The Hellcat wouldn’t be too different to the Sea Fury for air to ground missions. For air to air they could operate a notional CAC Panther. The standard USN Panther was too high with wings folded (>16’) to fit in the Impacables’ short hangars. But Panther wing fold was at the wing root. One purpose built for the 14’ Impacable hangar could have a mid-wing fold in addition to the wing root fold for a folded height of around 12’ (tail height). Even without a CAC Panther you could hangar jet fighters like the Sea Vampire and Sea Venom on the Implacables.

A licensed CAC Panther would have been a very interesting option for the RAAF and RAN as it would logically have been followed by the Cougar and then Tiger with the Super Tiger becoming a no brainer. I assume the Australianised Panther and Cougar would have used RR Tay while the Tiger / Super Tiger would have gone for the Avon and possibly ADEN in place of the Colts. Who knows, maybe the advent of a substantial late 50s order for Super Tigers by the RAAF/RAN could have pushed it over the line in the “Deal of the Century” with the Australian mods offered as Euro friendly options.
The Grumman progression would be an interesting option for CAC. The Panther was originally selected for the RAAF because it was to be powered by the Nene and then the Tay which was just a slightly scaled up Nene. The Nene and Tay built by CAC were to be the centre of the Australian built post war jet fleet because the Nene would power the DHA built Vampire and the Tay GAF Canberra (which was also trialed with the Nene and at the time the Avon was on the secret UK only list). The Tay was also to power the CAC built Hawker P.1081 and the Nene used for early designs of the CA-23 (both after the Panther was passed over). Once the Avon was off the secret list the RAAF wanted it for the Canberra and CA-23 and the delays in the day fighter program meant by the time the Sabre was selected the Avon was available.

If they found the US Dollars to buy the Panther design then CAC could have built a RAAF day fighter, all-weather interceptor version and RAN fighter. The day fighter could be produced in place of the urgent buy of the Meteor for use in Korea. The all-weather interceptor design was prepared before CA-23 and had a radar operator in a coal scuttle position forward of the pilot’s cockpit. The Panther could also be built as a dual control trainer with the Nene in place of the Vampire trainers. It would kill of DHA as an airframe builder 10 years early but would strengthen CAC through to the Tiger.

With the Tiger I doubt that CAC could handle it capacity wise until the Super Tiger was conceived (1955) what with Panther, swept wing Panther (Cougar), twin seat Nene Panther (trainer) and the like. Also would CAC be building the Avon? If the RAAF had went with the Tay Canberra it wouldn’t be needed. Even when they selected the Avon the plan was to import them because of their higher cost. We only set up the CAC Avon production line to keep them in work. But if they are churning out Tays for Panthers that need would be redundant.

The J79 is closely integrated with the Super Tiger. The Tiger would probably still be a short range dog with the Avon in place of the Sapphire. Rather than stop off at the Tiger CAC could go straight through to building both the Super Tiger and the J79. They could even supply J79s for the last batch of wet wing GAF Canberras (which could boost their range and speed). I’m not sure if ADEN would be introduced because there would be no operational need to replace the existing HE firing 20mm guns (unlike the Sabre’s .50 FMJ M3s) but in a perfect would the unreliable Colts could be replaced by the Hughes revolver gun (twice the weight of the Colt for four times the ROF). Avoinics wise the Super Tiger had an excellent space and weight allotment and the Americans were producing the best stuff at this time by far. I doubt even RAAF production could help the Super Tiger in the ‘Deal of the Century’ and other competitions it lost as it was bribery and political manoeuvring that won those deals. But the CAC Tiger would be superior to the Mirage, F-104 and MiG-21s around the world and could be in squadron service by 1960.

What to follow the Super Tiger with is more problematic as they had nothing that would have suited Australia after the Super Tiger. Phantom would be nice but a CAC Crusader / Twosader (RR Spey 202 + other mods maybe ADEN, Ferranti Airpass, Firestreak/Red Top or not) would have been a good fit. It would have made a Corsair II buy instead of the F-111 and Skyhawk a possibility.
The Crusader is an even older design than the Super Tiger and offers lower performance. While the Twosader is a looker with CAC producing the Panther and then Tiger for 15 years the RAAF and RAN would be pretty heavily into US technology and not so interested in the Brit stuff. The RAAF and RAN wouldn’t need a CAC Tiger replacement until the late 60s, early 70s. With the J79 under production in Australia the Vigilante would be more likely as a Canberra replacement. Especially because the much stronger domestic aviation industry of CAC would alleviate the concerns of the Government of early obsolescence via the Vigilante compared to the then TFX. Rather this could be an advantage because they could replace all the Tigers and Vigilantes with a new strike fighter in the Phantom class.

The big question is what would have replaced the Implacables as they reached the end of their service lives during the late 70’s early 80’s. I can not think of a single realistic option.
Well this decision as to the parameters for the new carrier would be closely integrated with the new aircraft to replace the Tiger and Vigilante in the 1970s. Such a decision would have to be made around 1965 in order to define the direction. This would also be when Defence was flushed with cash thanks to the Indonesians and North Vietnamese. There would be a British option but they were rightly seen as an unreliable source of major weapons technology because of their financial and political retraction. Especially as by 1965/66 they had cancelled the aircraft (P.1154) and the carrier (CVA-01). The American option could focus on the F-X (aka F-15) or the VFX (aka F-14). Also for the carrier side the CVV was conceived as a replacement to the Essex class. It grew because someone decided it had to be big enough to fly the F-14 (which kind of made sense since at the time it was the only USN fighter in production). But it was about the same length as the CVA-01 just a bit bigger because it was better designed to operate aircraft.

So with CAC’s close alignment with Grumman the F-14 would be a natural leader. Australian money and involvement could be crucial in helping the F-14B enter production. The F-14A was only a stop-gap, lead-in-production aircraft (only 70 planned to be built) until the definitive F-14B. It had the right engine in place of the TF30, the F401 (a bigger version of the F100), and all digital avionics. The CAC Tomcat could perhaps dispense with the AWG-9 and Phoenix and carry a multi role set of avionics. Like the F-15’s radar integrated with the retractable FLIR turret of the A-6 or S-3. Such an aircraft would be excellent as a centrepiece for both the RAAF and RAN.

Production of both the aircraft and the carrier would be well underway before the election of the Whitlam Government so they would have to proceed with them. Especially as they would all be done in Australia. The new carrier could be built at Whyalla and then fitted out at Cockatoo Island.

It strikes me that this discussion is a bit off topic for most of this thread and even this forum. There is a new what if and modellers forum at:

Beyond The Sprues - Index

We might want to migrate this discussion there? Volkodav and Tasman let me know what you think (PM)?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Pre budget questions

Last week Minister Smith stated that there are long term maintenance issues with the Armidale class fleet and that there is a subsequent slow down of activity in border protection to rectify these.
Many of the fleet is certainly alongside at DNB but there is a distinct lack of activity and no "out of routine" flags or contractor activity visible.
Is this maintenance issue fact? or is this just part of a whole of govt cost cutting exercise to balance the budget?
I know that defence budget underspends ($1.6 billion this FY) usually stay in defence but Smith has also stated that Defence must play its part in "contributing to the budget's bottom line"
has anyone within the defence organisation heard and are there likely to be further painful cuts?
Cheers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Last week Minister Smith stated that there are long term maintenance issues with the Armidale class fleet and that there is a subsequent slow down of activity in border protection to rectify these.
Many of the fleet is certainly alongside at DNB but there is a distinct lack of activity and no "out of routine" flags or contractor activity visible.
Is this maintenance issue fact? or is this just part of a whole of govt cost cutting exercise to balance the budget?
I know that defence budget underspends ($1.6 billion this FY) usually stay in defence but Smith has also stated that Defence must play its part in "contributing to the budget's bottom line"
has anyone within the defence organisation heard and are there likely to be further painful cuts?
Cheers
not within BPC. spoke to an operator the other day who said that their small ships are buggered and they're hanging their hats on the new ones starting to hit the water next year
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
not within BPC. spoke to an operator the other day who said that their small ships are buggered and they're hanging their hats on the new ones starting to hit the water next year
Strange that, aluminium hulls wearing out through hard use, who would have thought. Any chance that one day someone will in a position of authority will realise that a little foresight (and appropriate funding up front) will save money in the long run.
 
Two little things

There was an article in a magazine the other day. I think it was australian pacific defence reporter, or something like that. The articel was about using hte Cocos/Keeling Islands as a forward operating base. There was also some news recently about the americans using the Cocos islands as an airfield to fly drones off. I know this gets pretty political.

One thing of note was that it was said that a submarine could remain submerged till 5 minutes before docking at the island, due to the large depth of water close to the island. If the submarnine came in at night, and if there was a roof over the dock, then there is the possibility that a sub visting these islands may be undected. Idea would be to refuel the subs, give the crew a little rest, stock up on fresh food, and possibly make a few minor repairs that could not be done at sea.

anyway, the article was an interesting read, have no idea if it will happen. I think upsetting other nations would be the largest negative, They may reply with their own forward operating bases, like the Maldives or lease an island from Burma.

I am not sure if this is a great idea or not. My main concern is that we might start provoking other countries, and instead of seeing us a mostly benign nation, they might view a forward operating base as a little agressive.

The armidale patrol boats are a fraction small for where they operate, hundreds and hundreds of miles out into the ocean. I did like the Tenix patrol boat made for the Phillipines, at around 500t and in steel. It was a fraction top heavy to look at (subjective I know... not scientifically tested). It does give an idea of what can be done on 500t and in steel. Plus the heli pad would always come in useful, small helicopters, UAVs etc. I played around with the photos, it should be possible to reduce some of the topweight structure, it looks better in my opinion. Yes the space that is removed would eat into space on lower decks. It is always easier to add topweight it there is too little, than it is to reduce topweight. Worse comes to worse they could keep the ballast tanks dry most of the time,

I was playing around wiht the lines of a cape class patrol boat and armidale class If it was extended a few meters forward, and a few meters aft, it could easily accommodate a pad forward, when I added an SH60B for scale, it did fit, though the forward weapon had to be lower and more forward. A UH-1 huey would fit very easily though.

Say 6m longer, that is about 10 percent, to give same scale one would assume that beam is increased by 10 percent. Thus a very rough approximation is that dispacement would be about 25 percent larger. increasing from around 250t to approx 310t. I do realise that a larger hull needs bigger engines, and bigger engines use mroe fuel etc. However a patrol boat around 320t to 350t could just squeeze in a heli pad forward. I do realise that this is not the ideal spot, as it is exposed to the elements, and it obstructs forward view, However if a helicopter only dropped in very occasionally it should not be a huge deal. More of a contigency option.

Of course going up to 500t gives a lot lot more options, the Tenix boat did not seem to have those RIBs. I wonder it they could fit under the heli deck there. I mean is one deck enough height to store a RIB. They can put a man on the moon, so my thinking is that they should be able to make it work.
 

Vanguard

New Member
What are some genuine alternatives we could go for opposed to the Skanky Bergen?
Something cheap along the lines of the Makassar class? (this is a genuine question - no sarcasm intended).
That's not to far off the price of HMNZS Canterbury for one if they were looking towards a long term selection.

Otherwise there are options such as;
Kicking off the replacement of the Balikpapan class, although this would again be in the long term.
Another Jervis Bay style Austal ship, despite not really being an amphib this probably would have been a better option than what we ended up with.
Makassar class yes, there are several variants of that type offered by both Korea and Indonesia which could be viable - you could get two of the Indonesia speced ones for $130 million probably but at RAN levels likely only one with some change.
RFA Fort George - an oldie yes but its got some life left in it and would be able to take on both the extra amphib role and replenishment ship requirement with Success likely to die soon.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That's not to far off the price of HMNZS Canterbury for one if they were looking towards a long term selection.

Otherwise there are options such as;
Kicking off the replacement of the Balikpapan class, although this would again be in the long term.
Another Jervis Bay style Austal ship, despite not really being an amphib this probably would have been a better option than what we ended up with.
Makassar class yes, there are several variants of that type offered by both Korea and Indonesia which could be viable - you could get two of the Indonesia speced ones for $130 million probably but at RAN levels likely only one with some change.
RFA Fort George - an oldie yes but its got some life left in it and would be able to take on both the extra amphib role and replenishment ship requirement with Success likely to die soon.
We could get 52,000 tinnys for the same price, and it would be a hell of alot more effective then the frigging thing
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
For once the press have got it right Smith under attack from ship critics

i fully and entirely agree that the purchase of the Skandi Bergen was and is a complete waste of defences money.
I'm glad you brought this back up again, (been wanting to comment, been away for a number of weeks)

Normally when I hear that a new ship has been purchased, I think great! This time when I read Smith's press release I though, "What the f*#k! Why??"

A lot the questions I wanted to pose were answered in the newspaper article, a political solution, nothing else.

I thought if Customs really needed it, why didn't "they" buy it and lease it back to the Navy if and when necessary.

Why does Navy have to cough up $130m+ for a ship that it will have for a couple of years at the most? Is the Navy going to have any of the $130m, that I assume has come out of its budget, realocated back after the transfer? Answer, probably not!

We have now have Choules in service, we have Tobruk back in service, we have an arrangement with the Kiwi's regarding the use of Canterbury, if needed, so why the hell do we need to waste $130m on this thing? Why?

I really can't see that the Navy really needs another ship of this type (and this one doesn't seem to come close to that need) until the LHD's come into service.

The $105m that we paid for Choules seems like the bargain of the decade, if an other Bay had been available for $130m, I would have said, Great, good investment! But not this waste of money.

I would rather have seen the $130m+ spent on more useful purchases, eg, go towards the early delivery of an AOR (if the big problems with Success are acurate).

Probably a lot of things that the Navy could spend $130m on that would be way more useful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top