The Indonesian Army

koxinga

Well-Known Member
This slide interest me considerably. It appears to be presented at a official forum, possible DPR commissions meeting.

In the nutshell, the translation is that under the MEF plan, the projected numbers is 398 units. Of which, 80 are planned to be sourced from the Netherlands and another 44 from Germany by 2012. Both plans are proceeding in parallel and are not mutually exclusive as original thought of (ie. the Germany procurement as a backup).
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
This slide interest me considerably. It appears to be presented at a official forum, possible DPR commissions meeting.

In the nutshell, the translation is that under the MEF plan, the projected numbers is 398 units. Of which, 80 are planned to be sourced from the Netherlands and another 44 from Germany by 2012. Both plans are proceeding in parallel and are not mutually exclusive as original thought of (ie. the Germany procurement as a backup).
Just add, the ToT (Transfer of Tech) being discussed between Pindad and Rheinmetal is for Pindad to conduct modifications similar in nature with what ST Kinetics did with Singapore Leo 2. How's this progressing remain to be seen.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Indonesia agree for further defense manufacturing cooperation with Ukraine (From Antara news agency with Google translate):

Seoul (ANTARA News) - Indonesia and Ukraine have agreed to cooperate in the defense field.

According to Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa in Seoul, South Korea, Wednesday, the deal was discussed in a bilateral meeting between President Yudhoyono and President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych at the sidelines of the Nuclear Security Summit.

"Ukraine has a defense industry is quite mature, so need to work together. But all is still being done in accordance with national requirements and regulations," said Marty, who accompanied the President on the visit in Seoul.
http://www.antaranews.com/berita/303550/indonesia-ukraina-jalin-kerja-sama-pertahanan

What's this for..?? Oplot ? Bulat ? or Gas Turbine ? Could it be Ukraine Oplot but with Rheinmettall gun ?? Pindad already stated that they're in progress of developing 25-30 ton Medium Tanks/ Tracked IFV. Could this be developed with Ukraine help ?
Ooo well..it's the job for fan boys like me to speculate anyway :D.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Indonesia agree for further defense manufacturing cooperation with Ukraine (From Antara news agency with Google translate):



Indonesia-Ukraina jalin kerja sama pertahanan - AntaraNews.com

What's this for..?? Oplot ? Bulat ? or Gas Turbine ? Could it be Ukraine Oplot but with Rheinmettall gun ?? Pindad already stated that they're in progress of developing 25-30 ton Medium Tanks/ Tracked IFV. Could this be developed with Ukraine help ?
Ooo well..it's the job for fan boys like me to speculate anyway :D.
It was probably a basic Military-Technical Cooperation agreement, without anything concrete attached to it. It's a foundation laying document that allows further cooperation, and joint projects.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Just add, the ToT (Transfer of Tech) being discussed between Pindad and Rheinmetal is for Pindad to conduct modifications similar in nature with what ST Kinetics did with Singapore Leo 2. How's this progressing remain to be seen.
What STK did was with IBD Deisenroth Engineering, and I am not sure how much they had to deal with Rhein. IBD Deisenroth Engineering AMAP/Evo package is an aftermarket kit from the standard A6/A7 kits from Rhein.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
What STK did was with IBD Deisenroth Engineering, and I am not sure how much they had to deal with Rhein. IBD Deisenroth Engineering AMAP/Evo package is an aftermarket kit from the standard A6/A7 kits from Rhein.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I don't say what Rheinmettal ToT offered with Pindad will be same project with what STK project (since you're right, STK have different partner on the project).

What I mean is that Rheinmettal offered ToT for Pindad to have similar capability with what STK able to do on Singapore Leo-2.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting, i've seen these overviews on another website. So they want to spend $270jt on 8 batteries of air defence systems, i dont expect it will be an advanced system like the S-300 or Pantsir.... will it be again a MANPADS system like the Polish Kobra?
The first complete Kobra system has been delivered to Indonesia and was accepted into TNI-AD service in November 2007. A second purchase of the Kobra system is underway, which will again provide the TNI-AD with two air defence batteries and an MMSR radar.
As JDW was informed in 2004 by a source close to the negotiations, Indonesia was interested in procuring three more such systems, to be delivered by 2010-12. However, any further orders will be dependent on the system proving itself in the local environment.
Does this mean that we have added more Kobra systems on top of the first acquisition of one mobile multi-beam search radar (MMSR), two WD-95 battery command vehicles (BCVs), four Poprad mobile anti-aircraft systems and 14 ZUR-23-2KG Jodek-G gun/missile anti-aircraft systems (12 for the Kobra and two for training and other purposes)?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Another contract for 37 BMP-3F just got signed.

Lenta.ru:

Will this phase out all the PT-76? Or do they need more?
Mindef so far talk for 54 BMP-3F. Thus with this contract and with the first batch of 17, total 54 (one battalion) to replace PT-76 is commencing. However the Indonesian Marines supposed to have 3 battalions of light amphibious tank. 2 PT-76 and 1 AMX-10P. The PT-76 consists of 1 battalion with original 76 mm gun and the another battalion with 90 mm Cockerill gun. All PT-76 already being re-engined with Detroit diesels replacing original Russian diesels in the 90's.

Thus if the data above correct, then the BMP-3F replacing the PT-76 with original 76 mm gun, while the other 2 battalions of PT-76 and AMX-10P (both with 90 mm Cockerill gun) will stay. There're speculations that all 90 mm Cockerill gun tanks will be eventually replaced by BMP-3F, but no solid information so far.

In my own opinion, I believe the Marines want to standardize their tanks with BMP-3F. They're not really happy with AMX-10P while PT-76, no matter how much modernization being done with the 90 mm guns versions, still it's a very old tanks.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Mindef so far talk for 54 BMP-3F. Thus with this contract and with the first batch of 17, total 54 (one battalion) to replace PT-76 is commencing. However the Indonesian Marines supposed to have 3 battalions of light amphibious tank. 2 PT-76 and 1 AMX-10P. The PT-76 consists of 1 battalion with original 76 mm gun and the another battalion with 90 mm Cockerill gun. All PT-76 already being re-engined with Detroit diesels replacing original Russian diesels in the 90's.

Thus if the data above correct, then the BMP-3F replacing the PT-76 with original 76 mm gun, while the other 2 battalions of PT-76 and AMX-10P (both with 90 mm Cockerill gun) will stay. There're speculations that all 90 mm Cockerill gun tanks will be eventually replaced by BMP-3F, but no solid information so far.

In my own opinion, I believe the Marines want to standardize their tanks with BMP-3F. They're not really happy with AMX-10P while PT-76, no matter how much modernization being done with the 90 mm guns versions, still it's a very old tanks.
Yes it seems you are correct. Earlier I found reports that 20 or 21 BMP-3 (typically 21) have been delivered to Indonesia, but now it seems that the number was indeed only 17. Indonesia had a 1bln USD credit line from Russia, and has so far only spent 300 mln of that money. The credit line expires in 2013, so I think we can expect additional contracts in the near future.

bmpd -
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I have spent a lot of time in the jungle, and believe me, there are many areas where you have trouble walking in, let alone driving 50 tonne MBTs in :).
Yes, there are definitely limitations how/where you deploy a 50 ton vehicle.

But the tropical terrain is not alone in limiting the use of MBT. Example in Korean War, a lot of times the tanks could not support the infantry as a lot of the fighting were done up in hilly terrain. But both sides still valued the use of MBT in areas where they can be employed.

Both Koreas not only continue to operate MBT but even build their own.

You can also read about the usefulness of the Centurion and other MBT in Vietnam. You just need to have the correct intel when and where they can be employed.

...

The other side of the coin, you can also read about how the Japanese used their Light tanks in WW2 Blitzkreig down the Malayan Peninsula.

They were mostly road-bound - as opposed to popular belief that Light Tanks means you'll operate them inside the jungle.

They were used to support or spearhead infantry drives along the roads to capture bridges in their race towards Singapore.

In this role, it mattered less whether they weighed 5 tons or 50 tons. In fact, a MBT with its wide tracks and very low ground pressure would probably have much better mobility compared to all other classes of vehicles especially wheeled ones.

I'm not saying how this will be in every conflict, but it certainly gives you enough reasons to keep an open mind. One can only say that there are limitations to MBT operations, as opposed to the MBT being entirely unsuitable for certain parts of the world etc.

You just need the correct ideas plus a whole range of compatible support equipment including bridging, recovery and engineer vehicles etc.

Nearly every country from Indochina to SE Asia operates MBT.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
You can also read about the usefulness of the Centurion and other MBT in Vietnam. You just need to have the correct intel when and where they can be employed.
South Vietnam [especially along the coastal plains] and Cambodia, contains a lot of areas which are flat and are not dense with vegetation - areas which ae perfect for the use of MBTs. The Americans and Australians operated their MBTs in triple canopy jungle but I'm not aware of the NVA doing so, though off course NVA MBTs did operate in triple canopy jungle on their way south, with intensive engineering support, via the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The Vietnamese also made use of MBTs during their Cambodia invasion in 1979. In the case of Kalimantan, as Ananda pointed out, large scale logging and rapid urbanisation has made the landscape more condiucive for MBTs. It's the same with Malaysia, rapid urbanisation and an intensive road network connecting all urban population centres means that MBTs can operate much more easily than in the past.

The other side of the coin, you can also read about how the Japanese used their Light tanks in WW2 Blitzkreig down the Malayan Peninsula.

They were mostly road-bound - as opposed to popular belief that Light Tanks means you'll operate them inside the jungle.

They were used to support or spearhead infantry drives along the roads to capture bridges in their race towards Singapore. .
They were operated as you mentioned on roads [Malaya in 1941 had the 2nd best road network in the British Empire] and also in rubber estates. Which got me thinking, with the causeway blown, how were moved across Singapore? Come to think of it I can't ever recall seeing photos of Japanese tanks in Singapore. Will have a look at my 'After The Battle' Singapore campaign issue.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
. Indonesia had a 1bln USD credit line from Russia, and has so far only spent 300 mln of that money. The credit line expires in 2013, so I think we can expect additional contracts in the near future.

bmpd -
Russia wants Indonesia to use the bulk of those credit Export for 2 Kilo subs. Thus, according to Min-Def in here, Russia reluctant to accept Indonesia's offered to use the remaining Export Credit facility for the latest order of 6 SU-30 (which in the end has to use Commercial Credit line). The largest defense procurement from Indonesia to Russia remain to be Flankers. So far, Min-Def in here did not show any other large procurement interest on Russian stuff except Flankers. Russia already losing out Submarine project and LIFT to South Korea, Tanks (MBT) seems going to German, and Corvettes/Light Frigates to Dutch.

Indonesia seems still show possible interest on more Flankers procurement, thus in my opinion Russia must willing to let Indonesian use those credit line for Flankers (and not hoping for other project). Unless the speculation on SA-300 interest from local fan boys in here coming true.
 

Chino

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
with the causeway blown, how were moved across Singapore? Come to think of it I can't ever recall seeing photos of Japanese tanks in Singapore.
There are quite a few pictures of Jap tanks in Singapore.

The Causeway was easily repaired by Jap engineers as the Johore Straits is very shallow in many places. IIRC some tanks were floated across on makeshift platforms during the initial assault. The rest probably crossed after the Causeway is repaired and a secure Singapore beachhead established by infantry who crossed on sampans.
 

Saracens

New Member
Leopard for Indonesian army ?

This is just come, translate with google:

Tuesday, May 22, 2012 | 17:42 pm
30 German Leopard Tank Ready to Jakarta

TEMPO.CO, Pontianak - Chief of Army Staff, Gen. Pramono Edhie Wibowo, said in October, a total of 30 Leopard tanks from Germany that was ordered will be sent to Jakarta.

"At first offer came from the Netherlands and Germany, but we chose Germany because it is more promising," said Pramono, the Regional Military Headquarters XII / Tanjungpura, Tuesday, May 22, 2012, in Pontianak.

A total of 30 units of this tank, he said, just waiting for the Germans to send it to Indonesia. Types to be purchased is the Leopard 2A6 is the result of "retrofit 2A4" or the development of new technologies for new printing technology similar Leopard has been discontinued.

Excess chose Germany is able to offer the transfer of technology (TOT). Germany also offers a joint production for the manufacture of some parts of the tank weighing 60 tons with PT Pindad.

Still associated tank is needed to keep the military of the Republic of Indonesia, was due in West Kalimantan will also be placed tank units. Pramod said, now in West Kalimantan is only equipped with light tanks and in the future will be enhanced with the tank for combat. Cavalry units in West Kalimantan will also be increased from Datasemen a full battalion.

ASEANTY Pahlavi
So, in the end Indonesia just buy 30 ?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
So, in the end Indonesia just buy 30 ?
Let me add the link : 30 Tank Leopard Jerman Siap ke Jakarta | nasional | Tempo.co

Seems this is only the first batch. The deal with Netherlands for 80-100 ex Dutch Army still on going. The deal for Leo 2 initially with Netherlands, however since the Dutch Parliament still disputing the so called 'ethical' in selling Arms to Indonesian Army, then Indonesia being approached by German for additional/alternative Leo 2.

German (KMW) also will give ToT in terms of maintenance and upgrading capability for PT. Pindad. Local media quoted Indonesian Parliament member who just back from German, indicating the ToT deal will be similar with what Greece or Spain got. Will have to be seen.
 

Methos

New Member
In the end the deals Spain and Greece made with KMW were not really including any useful ToT, just licence assembly with the inclusion of indigenous stuff. The technology is restricted for use on the Leopard 2 and they don't have the right to produce more than ordered for their own forces or to build some for export. They might know some more things about how to build a tank, but are not allowed to use this technology freely.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
In the end the deals Spain and Greece made with KMW were not really including any useful ToT, just licence assembly with the inclusion of indigenous stuff. The technology is restricted for use on the Leopard 2 and they don't have the right to produce more than ordered for their own forces or to build some for export. They might know some more things about how to build a tank, but are not allowed to use this technology freely.
I believe this kind of restrictions is understand by Pindad. Pindad after Anoa Armored Vehicle project (based on VAB) wants to move on to Tracked Armored Vehicles. They already made prototype for IFV, and hoping the ToT from KMW will provide them enough know-how in further developing their own tracked vehicles.

I do believe Pindad has no intentions to build MBT for some time. They are planning to move to 20+ton class IFV.
 
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