Russian Army/Ground Forces Discussion and Updates

[Feanor]

I know it's about the Armata. Nevertheless I wait till I see it before I believe in them really introducing a new tank.

It's not like the Object 195 wasn't anounced alot, too.

You mean you're not sure they will actually procure it? That certainly is a question.

However Object 195 was basically completed in iirc 2010, underwent trials, and was even shown in a closed presentation to members of the government. It's unofficial, but supposedly when they found out what the cost would be they decided against it.

It will be interesting to see since they have 3 major vehicle families they want to develop. Kurganets-25 is a new medium tracked platform, Bumerang is a new medium wheeled platform, and Armata a new heavy tracked platform. This would mean they're replacing all current specialized chassis including the MT-LB (about time), and the various custom chassis used for SAMs. They also have a lot of specialized command and control vehicles based on the BTR chassis, in some cases as old as the BTR-60. It's quite ambitious to put it mildly, but if they can pull it off it will be a huge improvement over the current zoo of multiple aging vehicles.

 

[Waylander]

Jup, I am not questioning their ability to design the Armata but I am questioning if all these procurement plans really come to frution.

As you said it is really ambitious and one could argue that a new tank is less needed than other designs (like the mentioned medium wheeled platform).

 

[Feanor]

Jup, I am not questioning their ability to design the Armata but I am questioning if all these procurement plans really come to frution.

As you said it is really ambitious and one could argue that a new tank is less needed than other designs (like the mentioned medium wheeled platform).

I tend to agree. I think the T-90AM or MS whatever you want to call it, is suitable as a new heavy tracked platform. They could transplant the Msta-S onto the chassis, BREM-1 and MTU-72 are already compatible with it. The BMO-T can also be built on a T-90 chassis (heavy APC). And by mounting a combat module on it like the Bakcha-U, they can turn it into an IFV fairly easily. There's not much else they need.

As far as wheeled platforms go, they're definitely in need of a unifying update, but not as badly as tracked ones. BTR-80 and 82 have been procured by the hundreds in the last 6 years. They've phazed out most if not all BTR-70Ms, and even a large portion of older BTR-80s. The BTR-60s still left tend to be specialized vehicles, replacements for which simply haven't been designed. Even a number of BMP-1KSh have been replaced by BTR-80 based command vehicles.

Tracked platforms on the other hand are a bigger issue. They still operate BMP-1, 2, and are still procuring BMP-3s, including Khrizantema ATGM complexes based on the BMP-3. Most BMP-1s are not used for training purposes, while combat equipment is all 2 and 3, but it's still an issue. MT-LBs are used as APCs in a lot of units. Some units in South MD have even upgraded their MT-LBs with a new combat module (namely 33rd and 34th Motor-Rifles). Also most ATGM carriers are Shturm-S based on the MT-LB. Also command vehicles tend to use a modified MT-LB chassis. Finally there is a special tracked platform used for the Tunguska, another one for the Tor, and a third for the Buk SAMs. Granted they're related chassis designs, and share some commonality, but they share almost nothing with the BMP or MT-LB chassis. This gets even worse when you realize that there are units armed with BMP that have SAMs on the GM chassis (Tunguska and Tor), and ATGMs and command vehicles on the MT-LB chassis.

 

[Feanor]

It appears that the Nona-SVK is still in production, with not only export orders but also domestics. A whole arty btln (18) were delivered to the Land Forces last year, along with a number of exports to Venezuela.

Given experiments with sat-nav, and guided munitions for the Nona-S used by the VDV, I wonder if these new-built Nona-SVKs have an automatic fire control system like the modernized 2S19s, and 2S3s that have been getting delivered lately. They're being delivered along side, and with similar purpose, the 2S34 Hosta which is a 120mm SP arty that supposedly can also be used to fire mortar rounds.

sergeantpro -

 

[Feanor]

The first batch of 57 Lynx Iveco LMVs has begun assembly at OAO Oboronservis facilities in Voronezh, with a localization of 10%. By 2014 it's planned to reach 50% localization. They're destined for South MD.

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I really have to wonder what units will be the first to get them. Para-assault are a natural choice. Right now they're rolling around in un-armored jeeps.

 

[LGB]

While I stopped paying close attention to Russia around 1990 it does seem that the main issue for the Russian Army at this point really isn't equipment but getting a handle on personnel issues. The original plan was to expand the number of contract troops and reduce conscripts, then this was reversed and quite soon thereafter there were calls for again reducing conscripts.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it appears struggles continue with developing both the NCO and officer corp? Have all the officers that were forced into NCO slots finally been returned to their proper career path? It's not really clear to me that Russia will be able to run procurement properly without first establishing a more professional personnel base. Too many general officers involved with corruption appear to be just quietly retired, among other issue.

 

[Feanor]

They're having trouble with the NCO corps. I don't know what the situation is with officers. It's hard to tell with the current upheaval. They're planning to increase contract soldiers by 50 000 a year, with it to peak at 425 000 contract soldiers in iirc 2017. That's the plan at least. They have taken to re-training all contract soldiers under new programs, re-certifying their MOS's etc. There is also a new professional NCO school, the first graduating class should be this year.

 

[Wall83]

I dont get this graph from Rian.ru. The Russian armed forces is being reduced. But acourding to the graph the ground forces will be droped by 90%. This cant be right can it?

Reform of the Russian Armed Forces | INFOgraphics | RIA Novosti

 

[kato]

But acourding to the graph the ground forces will be droped by 90%.

The number of units is being dropped by 90%. Most of that is by the abolishment of the regimental level and regrouping its subunits directly into brigades. The 172 remaining units are the 4 military districts, the operational commands and the brigades, the previous unit number included the regiments.

 

[Feanor]

The number of units is being dropped by 90%. Most of that is by the abolishment of the regimental level and regrouping its subunits directly into brigades. The 172 remaining units are the 4 military districts, the operational commands and the brigades, the previous unit number included the regiments.

Also by entirely eliminating a large number of cadre-strength units.

I've found a photo of what may be the Kamaz Taifun undergoing experimental exploitation in the 5th Motor-Rifles Brigade. This photo is on the MoD website from the official visit by Putin and Medvedev. The vehicle looks like it could be a Kamaz Taifun, and it certainly doesn't look like any currently existing Russian armored vehicle. Granted it might be some other armored truck variant, but those are usually in service in the North Caucus.

http://multimedia.mil.ru/images/military/military/photo/SAV_5991.jpg

The rest of the set is here: http://multimedia.mil.ru/multimedia/photo/gallery.htm?id=5338@cmsPhotoGallery

 

[gf0012-aust]

old kit

came across this link, but as my russian is limited to Mockba and military acronyms - I can't understand any of it

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[Klaus]

Interesting photos, the text isn't that important. He (or she) describes what he found on a walk through a forest in Podmoskove, but doesn't give any detailed information on the vehicles seen.

 

[Feanor]

came across this link, but as my russian is limited to Mockba and military acronyms - I can't understand any of it

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Of you want I can give a full translation, but there is little of significance in the text. Mostly it's him wandering around a vehicle graveyard of what appears to be a former air-defense unit. He's marveling at the quantities of abandoned hardware, and the intactness of some of the equipment.

It does make one wonder. A lot of those vehicles are still in service else-where. BTR-60PB specialized variants are still in use in quite a few rear units (combat engineers command vehicles for example). And despite mass purchases of Kamaz trucks by the MoD older vehicles are still around. In my opinion it would be possible to sell a lot of this equipment second-hand on the cheap, if it was properly stored rather then left to rot. Ukraine is to this day still selling Soviet stockpiles.

EDIT: It seems that after these reforms and shakedowns ended they ended up with extra personnel which are now being used to form several additional units, namely the 130th Motor-Rifles Brigade, 346th Independent Brigade (presumably also M-R) and a 25th SpetzNaz Regiment. Also all the regional training centers are being reformed on a district basis, into multi-purpose training centers.

http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=104899&cid=25

 

[Wall83]

Found this clip with a train transporting russian military vehicles to Abkhazia back in 2010. Is it relly T-90 we are seing?

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GTAdvdurYA"]Russian T-90 Invade to Abkhazia,Georgia 26-10-2011 - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Feanor]

T-90As have been in Abkhazia since iirc 2009. The 7th MilBase in Abkhazia has been re-armed, as a high priority unit, as has the 19th Motor-Rifles Bde in North Ossetia.

Overall MD South has been getting the most new gear. Between 2/3rds and 3/4ths of all T-90A in service are South MD. Most of the Tigr armored cars are there. Most of the Mi-28N, all of the Mi-35M, helos are there. Most of the BPM-97 Vystrel armored cars, and all of the BTR-82 APCs are in South MD. They also have more modern comm gear, and personal gear, including flak jackets, kevlars, NVGs, etc. In my opinion it's the most powerful MD currently in the Russian military.

 

[Wall83]

Massive scrapping of older tanks in the russian armed forces continue.

The source claims that the tanks being scrapped is T-55,T-64 and T-80.
Now im sure its just the older T-80 that will be taken out of service, but why is no T-72 in the scrapping list?


Russia Announces 'Massive' Tank Scrappage Scheme | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[Feanor]

Other sources talk about T-55, T-62, and T-64. It might be a mistake on ria novosti's part. They're also scrapping a ton of the older Soviet-era trucks. They've been buying trucks in the tens of thousands, and these purchases are continuing so hopefully they'll be able to phase out all the older ones soon.

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[Methos]

Now im sure its just the older T-80 that will be taken out of service, but why is no T-72 in the scrapping list?

T-72s will be kept and modernized. T-72B is very similar to older T-90 model.

 

[alexkvaskov]

Does anyone have info regarding the new C2 system deployed in 2007? (YeSU-TZ)
from Sozvezdie? (The Digital Brigade concept)

Implementation, effectiveness, advantages, drawbacks etc

 

[Feanor]

Does anyone have info regarding the new C2 system deployed in 2007? (YeSU-TZ)
from Sozvezdie? (The Digital Brigade concept)

Implementation, effectiveness, advantages, drawbacks etc

Apparently the results of experimental exploitation were obtained, and based on it recommendations were made to the company. The Sozvezdie M2 was shown in iirc late 2011. I don't know if purchases were made.

I do know that the VDV has chosen their own C4ISR system, the Andromeda, two VDV divisions, and the 31st Para-Assault Bde already have the system (though whether they have been equipped with it completely, or just have a few examples of it, I don't know).