Sir i read in this thread that the Phil. Air Force is planning to acquire an F-16, but as i have observe the PAF has no advance jet trainer for their pilot, they have the S211 trainer jets but its been crashing one after the other, do you think it is proper for the Air Force to buy first an advance jet trainer so that's it pilot will be properly trained? and my second inquiry is there any difference in training in propeller driven plane to jet driven plane?, .. .thank you Sir, or any body can answer, sir
Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter SABRE
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Basic flight training will have to be on turboprops, there's no way around it.
Advanced training will be conducted on subsonic jets/LIFTs, like the S211.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
S211 is not LIFT. Basic-intermediate training can be done by jets (although much more common done by turboprop). India's Kiran is the example. After they graduated from Kiran, then they go to advance training which in India conducted with Hawk's 100 series LIFT.
If I'm not mistaken Singapore also used S211 as basic-intermediate training, since for the advance training Singapore used two seat A-4, similar with Israel.
Anyway, http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/n...an-to-acquire-1-squadron-of-f-16-fighter-jets Philipines press still circulated the talk about getting F-16. Although the Philipines Armed Forces admit they did not have the updated yet on the status of negotiation with the US Administrations on getting F-16.
Hopefully this is not something that being pushed by Politician, without deep knowledge on the condition of their own Air Force. If Philippines politician pushed for F-16, hopefully they also willing to give PAF the Investment needed to developed supporting infrastructure to help PAF developed their Pilot skills and their Ground crew. Well sometimes Policians did not think that well ahead. They just think for the moment.
Thanks for pointing that out. In the RMAF, basic flight training is conducted on PC-7 Mk1s and Mk2. Those that are chosen for fighters then proceed to another flight school where they fly MBB-339s.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Yes I believe, most Air Force uses Turboprop as their Basic-Intermediate trainers. I believe since it's more economical. Besides India, if I'm not mistaken Israel did also used Fouga Magister as basic-intermediate trainers before the student advancing to A-4. However besides India, at present I do not know if any other Air Force still use jets for basic-intermediate training.
I'm no pilot, but I would imagine that for new pilots, starting off in a turboprop would be much easier.
I think you are over emphasizing the trainer accusation aspect of what the Philippines’ defense needs. They can get their pilots trained in any one of the friendly countries that already use F-16 far cheaper than doing it themselves and not just in the US. You can even train them in the two seat version of the F-16 if you had to.
What the trainer type air-craft are most often used for is not to initially train pilots to fly jets but to keep basic air proficiency for the pilots that are already trained. True you can use your combat air-craft for this function but those flight hours are very-very expensive and they use up the finite hours on the airframe in the kinds of training that can both be done cheaper but more practically in trainers. Then there are all of the trained pilots you have in an air force that are not at that time serving in flying billets but in other officer like functions. They need something to fly in to keep their basic skills sharp even when they are not in a flying billets so that they will be ready for the day that they will return to one.
You do not have to have a jet-trainer to have a jet-air-force it is just so much better and for lots of reasons if you do but if the priority is to first to have some real combat capacity then you can do without them for a while. It is a matter of what you think the priorities are and the time frame you think that you will be most in danger.
I don't think I'm over emphasizing anything. I'm merely offering the opinion that before they contemplate buying fighters, the first step would be to ensure that the proper training and ground infrastructure needed to support a fleet of fighters, is established.
Yes, but I was referring to basic flight training - for new pilots.
The priority, if the reports that have come out are accurate, is to re-establish a supersonic jet combat capability and to do that there is need to expand beyond the handful of jet pilots that currently exist in the PAF and create a new pool of pilots. Jet training, as you pointed out, can indeed be outsourced to a 3rd country but if the PAF is serious in getting back in the fast jet business for the long term, it has to be able to conduct this kind of training locally, as not only will this be more practical but in the long run, will also be cheaper
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
I second that. Like I also put in this thread few posts before, if PAF wants to go back to fast jets operations, then they have to build the 'long-term' capability for supporting infrastructures in ground and air, hard and soft skill. Having 'in-house' fast jets training infrastructures is just one of the aspects of overall supporting fast jet operational business.
Forgive me if I am wrong, I thought that the idea was that after a long history of neglect in this area of Philippine national defense, which was considered by the leadership to be excusable because there was no pressing security needs for advanced aircraft, it was now important to build up a fighting force to address near term requirements [Mod edit: Kindly provide sources for the stated near term requirements within 2 days. Do not delete this Mod Edit]. In other words, the South China Sea and the conflicting claims from the various nations concerned.
It is far more effective, faster, and cheaper to have land based air craft to enforce your claims than it is to try to match others with a counter naval force. A program which usually takes a much longer time to build, train, and deploy than working up a few squadrons of fighter boomers. If I have the priorities wrong I am sorry.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
No, in my oppinion there's nothing wrong for Phillippines to build the Fighter force for immediate Air deterence. What I'm getting at is, if PAF wants to build F-16 sq, then they have to prepared build the supporting infrastructures first (hard-soft skill) in order to support the F-16 in sustain capability. What I don't agree if the amount of Investment being talked is only for getting the F-16 sq and not supporting facilities. In my oppinion, PAF need to create 'pool' of domestic pilot development, thus Investing also in LIFT.
That's why, in my other posts I stated that PAF need to invest more than double of amount that needed to upgraded 12 F-16. If Indonesia got the deal of USD 750 mio to upgrade 24 F-16, then PAF need 'at least' same amount of fund (and not half of that) to build and operate 12 F-16 sq. Why ? because PAF due to the neglect that they left for nearly a decade of Fast jests operation, then they have to build the supporting infrastructure from the scratch (which include LIFT fighters). This also in the assumption PAF can get bargain deal LIFT.
PAF can train your first batch of F-16 pilots and ground crew overseas, but PAF need to build that capabilities locally in order to maintain steady flow/pool of skill pilots and ground crew. That's why I said building the soft skill is very expensive, and if you neglect that part, it will cost you double or more if you want to come back to the game.
Hmp! I hope they buy the armaments that can be attached to the chopper, I saw the video when the choppers were delivered, no armaments.:sniper
It is my guess that a buy of just 6 aircraft of a complex and poorly supported type as the Su-36s, no matter what their combat capacity, would be a waste of money. The f-16 is so widely deployed in the world that there is a great deal of support for it from many different sources. If you were talking about twenty aircraft that might be a different story.
Really, in what way?
Apart from pintle mounts for machine guns, have the Sokols been certified to carry other stuff? Are there any Sokols users that have equipped theirs with unguided rocket pods?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
From GMA News : Italy's Alenia seeks to supply DND up*to P6.87-B worth of aircraft | GMA News Online | The Go-To Site for Filipinos Everywhere
Sensible thinking seems prevail with Philippines Air Force. Getting Lift first (whether Korean or Italian ones), will provide PAF with the long need foundation for Fast Jets operation after long time of neglect.
Forget about F-16, Su-30, or other fancy toys. Build your foundation first, then talk about getting/operating fast jets operations latter on. PAF can't jump to F-16, Su-30 or other those fancy jets yet, after long time neglecting the game with decade more withdrawal of F-5 and (much longer) A-8 Crusaders.
Sensible thinking seems prevail with Philippines Air Force. Getting Lift first (whether Korean or Italian ones), will provide PAF with the long need foundation for Fast Jets operation after long time of neglect.
Forget about F-16, Su-30, or other fancy toys. Build your foundation first, then talk about getting/operating fast jets operations latter on. PAF can't jump to F-16, Su-30 or other those fancy jets yet, after long time neglecting the game with decade more withdrawal of F-5 and (much longer) A-8 Crusaders.
And hopefully a couple of new 3D long range mobile radars for air surveillance.
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If only the Phillipines had better relations with China. China has plenty of advanced trainers I think would suit them, the JF-17 also, all at a cost effective prices.
[Mod Edit: One day ago, the Mod Team have given a general warning not to spam this thread with one-liners or other nonsense. And within 24 hours of the warning, you promote your favourate aircraft, the JF-17 as cost effective without any supporting source or understanding of local requirements/deficiencies (as previously discussed in this thread).
If you have an opinion feel free to share it but remember to provide sources for your facts. We hereby issue a source challenge. Provide a source that show the features and "cost" of the JF-17 (and explain if the concepts of recurring flyaway cost, weapons systems cost or unit procurement cost apply to the figures you cite) given that you claim it is cost effective. If possible, provide the estimates for lifecycle costs.
To get you started on cost comparisons, here is a link: "Estimating the Real Cost of Modern Fighter Aircraft". Kindly reply to the source challenge within 2 days. ]
[Mod Edit: One day ago, the Mod Team have given a general warning not to spam this thread with one-liners or other nonsense. And within 24 hours of the warning, you promote your favourate aircraft, the JF-17 as cost effective without any supporting source or understanding of local requirements/deficiencies (as previously discussed in this thread).
If you have an opinion feel free to share it but remember to provide sources for your facts. We hereby issue a source challenge. Provide a source that show the features and "cost" of the JF-17 (and explain if the concepts of recurring flyaway cost, weapons systems cost or unit procurement cost apply to the figures you cite) given that you claim it is cost effective. If possible, provide the estimates for lifecycle costs.
To get you started on cost comparisons, here is a link: "Estimating the Real Cost of Modern Fighter Aircraft". Kindly reply to the source challenge within 2 days. ]
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Apparently Russia has just offered the Yak-130 to the Philippines, for their tender for 6 combat-trainers. They will be competing with the M-346, and the T/A-50 Golden Eagle.
Lenta.ru:
Honestly Russian companies generally don't do well in competitive tenders (for a number of reasons, lack of experience being one of them). What do you guys think about this attempt to move in on the Philippines defense market?
Lenta.ru:
Honestly Russian companies generally don't do well in competitive tenders (for a number of reasons, lack of experience being one of them). What do you guys think about this attempt to move in on the Philippines defense market?
fretburner
Banned Member
I believe the PN is working on some type of landing vessel with Korea via Indonesia? If I got this correctly, maybe we can get a better deal with T-50s?
Although, the current trainers I think are from Alenia as well. So well see...
I don't really favor one over the other. I just hope we get back into flying jets VERY soon, be it a LIFT or a multi-role fighter like those surplus KFirs and F-16s!
True, but I think they've come a long way since the early 1990's, when Russian companies at defence shows were handing out black and white photocopies as brochures for their products [I still have black and white brochures for the Aphid and Archer missiles]. I was recently at a defence exhibition and the Russian salesman were more happy to talk to you and appeared enthusiastic. Previously, from my personal experience, most Russian salesman at company booths in defence shows looked gloomy and were more than happy to hand out some posters and brochures, in the hope that you might go away and not pester them with any questions about their products. Granted, language was a major problem.
If I recall correctly, an offer was first made in the late 1990's to suppy the PAF with Fulcrums, with payment to be made half cash and barter for certain items.